Of the lopping off of heads.

[Ganders]

Am i the only one with an problem with the logistics of one astartes chopping off the head of another in black library fiction?

 

In practically every book, from bad to fantastic, there is a moment or more when a space marine gets his head chopped off in battle and it always takes me out of the moment as i try to work out how that is possible.

 

According to every image and every model of astartes, to chop off their head would involve cutting through the tips of both pauldrons, part of the backpack, and most of the gorget. But that's never mentioned, it's always a chop and the head goes tumbling.

 

And that's just power armour. When a terminator is beheaded its more jarring. I think Mortarion beheaded all his deathshoud in one sweep and their heads are practically buried in the middle of that armour.

 

The only weapon that i could see working to lop off a marine head would be a giant sharp spoon.

 

I'm probably being picky but I'm the words of a great philosopher , 'It just bothers me'

[Marshal Loss]

Mortarion bisects his Deathshroud. He does not decapitate them. I'm not convinced decapitation is quite as common as you make out.

 

As for the main point: yeah it's not super realistic and I totally understand your gripe, but this is 40k, and it's probably best not to think about it too deeply.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Knockagh]

Perhaps it’s a half head decapitation? Just below ear level. Leaving the lower jaw..... sounds some rough justice to me. Tongue rolling about to the sky.

[Marshal Rohr]

If it’s a power weapon the armor can’t stop it. If it’s a chainsword I assume they’ve just shoved it into one side of the neck and cut it to the other side in the neck without a big haymaker swing.

[helterskelter]

Khârn usually splits someone head to crotch

[Indefragable]

I kinda think this is more of a problem of fiction in general. Decapitation is just too dramatic to pass up for the “camera.”

[Kenzaburo]

Well, if that already makes you wonder, better never read the original Ultras trilogy by McNeill. His somersaulting Marines performing alle kinds of moves that should just not be possible in power armour only furthered my dislike for that series.

 

But there's a lot of offenders for these kinds of moves, really. At times it works, because of suspension of disbelief, at other times it's just too much.

[bluntblade]

I kinda think this is more of a problem of fiction in general. Decapitation is just too dramatic to pass up for the “camera.”

This. It's a bit like noisy void engagements in Star Wars - entertaining enough that if the film or book in question is good, I will suspend my disbelief quite happily.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

I kinda think this is more of a problem of fiction in general. Decapitation is just too dramatic to pass up for the “camera.”

This. It's a bit like noisy void engagements in Star Wars - entertaining enough that if the film or book in question is good, I will suspend my disbelief quite happily.

As a side note, if you wanna do something cool mute the movie and play the Star Wars battle music over the space fights. Freaking epic.

[Trevak Dal]

Considering their armor is made to make that very challenging yeah, I think it's dumb. The stupidly big pauldrons, and gorgets tend to get in the way, unless you are going to bend them towards you, and sort of scallop out their neck with a wrenching motion like a Skyrim dagger fatality.

 

You start to think too much about it though you'll start to hate power swords that are bigger than marine sized gladiuses(gladi?) Because they can't grab hold of the blade (because it's basically a lightsaber with the power field on) for different strikes and stances if they say, have zwiehander swords like the grey knights (why halberds hammers and falcions are the best, even though I prefer the look of the nf swords) because the weapon would become as dangerous to the user as it would to an enemy (like a light saber).

 

If I was to whisper in Cawl's ear (...audio receptors?) I'd mention retractable punch blades affixed to the gauntlets of Mark X armor, not as lighting claws but as Astartes on Astartes combat would be mostly grappling, would allow it to sknitt into/through the enemy, allowing a neck slash.

 

I'd picture something like omniblades from mass effect, single use disposable blades for quickly finishing an opponent in combat so they can get back to shooting.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Trevak Dal

[b1soul]

Predator style wristblades

[Kelborn]

That's my Legions stuff, already. GW do it so that I can have them for my Primaris chapter and my Legion! :D

[SalvationOfReason]

@Trevak Dal - I would recommend playing the game Star Wars: Republic Commando. Your melee weapon is a retractable wrist blade, which pops out when you strike at an enemy, and then retracts.

[RobMac]

I'm sure I remember a story where a power sword or big chainsword is described as specifically shearing through pauldrons, backpad, head and all. 

 

I do now feel like I need to have characters make a joke about how hard it really is to behead a Space Marine now. 

[Espresso]

I understand when they blow the head off by hitting the neck joint with a bolt, but in terms of decapitation of people in Power Armor I have to agree, it is common in the books and therefore gratuitous. I am all in for some gory elements but the chopping of limbs, ripping of hearts and beheadings seem to be the golden standard for Warhammer fiction. Some authors, for example ADB and French are quite careful with their combat scenes. With them you often read of joints popping, fractured lenses, head blows, knives through a soft joint, while for some others, for example Reynolds in Apocalypse (being a recent read of mine), he beheaded quite a few combatants in the book. I was always of the opinion that less is more and there are plenty of combat maneuvers which are showy but at the same time reasonable from the point of view of the geneforged, the impaling of Abaddon in Black Legion for example... a whole scene was build upon that.

[b1soul]

I think power weapon beheading shouldn't be a big deal

[Knight of the Raven]

Some authors, for example ADB and French are quite careful with their combat scenes. With them you often read of joints popping, fractured lenses, head blows, knives through a soft joint, while for some others, for example Reynolds in Apocalypse (being a recent read of mine), he beheaded quite a few combatants in the book.

Indeed. Khârn got a serious case of mancrush on Armatura, and there wasn't any dismembering or beheading involved.

 

Betrayer, chapter ten, pages 180–181

'Khârn!' came the shout again.

The Centurion swore in Nagrakali. 'Who is shouting that?' he added in Gothic.

It was Argel Tal who answered. He aimed his golden blade deeper into the melee, where a cloaked and crested Ultramarines officer was carving his way towards them. He didn't need his warriors to part the sea of enemies. He came in an unpretentious stride, crested helm bowed, a power sword in one hand, a gladius in the other. Khârn watched him disembowel one of Skane's Destroyers with a sweep of his sword, while ramming the gladius home in another World Eater's throat. Both blades slashed back from the dying warriors' bodies in perfect order, only to catch an incoming axe strike, deflecting rather than blocking it. The World Eater pulled back for another swing, only to be parried a second time. He jerked back as the captain's gladius sheathed itself in his belly, struggling free just in time for the sword to ram through his chest.

Even amidst the storm, Khârn breathed in slow awe. Perfect grace. Perfect fluidity. Perfect economy of movement and balance and application of strength.

He had to kill him. What a trophy that helm would make.

'He's mine,' Khârn said. 'He is mine.'

The captain couldn't have heard, but he levelled his stabbing sword at Khârn all the same, marking his foe. 'Khârn!' he shouted again, vox-amplified by the muzzled Mark IV helm.

'I think you might be his.' Argel Tal was grinning, teeth white in his dusky face.

What's brutal and what's tame tango together to the tune of everyone's different tastes, but I'd say seeing heads and limbs fly about too often makes the whole thing banal and trite. And ramming an axe right where your foe's neck meets his shoulder, deep enough to bite into his spine, can be pretty hardcore too. Just to name one example coming to mind.

 

edit: said tags are the devil.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Knight of the Raven

[bluntblade]

AD-B isn't afraid to chop off a head for a really climactic moment, mind. Even if the recipient wears TDA

[Closet Skeleton]

The over the top gorget on mark VIII kind of implies that the substantial neck protection on regular armour isn't always enough but those silly pauldons and the power pack should indeed make decapitations very difficult.

 

If it’s a power weapon the armor can’t stop it. If it’s a chainsword I assume they’ve just shoved it into one side of the neck and cut it to the other side in the neck without a big haymaker swing.

 

I'm suspicious of the idea that 3rd-5th ed ignore all armour power weapons really represent the fluff, even if some novels might treat them as gospel. 2nd ed power weapons were like 8th ed ones, only a -3 so you could get some save out of power armour. A power sword can cut armour but it doesn't treat it as not there, it could probably pierce the gorget and dissolve most of the neck and jaw so that the rest of the skull just rolls off but not go through both pauldrons in one swing.

 

 

Well, if that already makes you wonder, better never read the original Ultras trilogy by McNeill. His somersaulting Marines performing alle kinds of moves that should just not be possible in power armour only furthered my dislike for that series.

 

But there's a lot of offenders for these kinds of moves, really. At times it works, because of suspension of disbelief, at other times it's just too much.

Mark VI-VII armour Space marines should be able to do everything humans can to in fully articulated plate mail. They shouldn't be doing wushu nonsense which fits Harlequins better but somersaults aren't actually hard unless your joint movement is too restricted for you to do most combat techniques anyway.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Thunderforge]

Beheading a space marine I always imagine a similar motion to scooping the yolk out of a boiled egg with a knife, sort of.