DA 8.5 Codex wishlisting

[Neuralshock]

So with the impeding updates to space marines in general, let's come up with some cool/good rules changes for our dudes.

 

Firstly, I like to change grim resolve into +1 BS (including overwatch) within half range or if the unit hadn't moved in it's previous movement phase. additionally, RF plasma gets the benefits of Bolter Discipline if the detachment contains no ravenwing or deathwing units.

 

  I feel like this makes our infantry have better quality shooting and emphasizes taking good ground/positioning. As well as having the added bonus of having a pure "greenwing" detachment.

 

Secondly, detachments that share the Ravenwing keyword can advance and shoot assault weapons at no penalty, additionally, non- assault weapons become assault "x" when the unit advances. This allows RW units to never not be jinking and shooting, a big complaint.

 

Thirdly, detachments that share the Deathwing keyword have +1 toughness (might be fun to have t8 contemptors and t9 land raiders) and Deathwing detachments don't suffer the aim penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.

 

Other hotfixes include fortress of shields working in both the shooting and fight phases and more broadly, a general +1 attack to all space marines.

 

What do you guys think and do you have any other suggestions?

[jbaeza94]

what i really want is DW/RW primaris, or at least a lore explanation of what is going on, as in, what do they wear?

 

+1 T DW sound op and expensive. 

 

i would like some plasma rules, after all we are the plasma marines. maybe re-roll any gets hot for plasma on a d3, on 1 you take mortal wound like normal, 2-3 nothing happens. bolter drill for plasma guns sounds cool too.

[G8Keeper]

I'd settle for grim resolve on vehicles and a fix for termies.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I have a small list of things I want.

• Dreadwing inspired unit with suitably arcane and/or terrible weapons. Radiation, phosphor and/or something else that is more about scorched earth rather than flat out murder weapons
• Rift Cannons on more vehicles
• Custom Ravenwing Master and Chapter Master for Successors
• Successor special character(s) and traits

[Guest MistaGav]

Like the main SM dex and the others, there needs a lot of consolidating of datasheets to tidy things up. Hunter/Stalker, Terminator armour types, dreadnoughts, HQ types as we're no doubt going to gain a whole load more when the Primaris stuff hits.

I wish Preds, Hunter, Stalker, Whirlwind, Vindicator could be taken in squads of 1-3. I wish we had Centurions, those with Bolter Discipline and Grim Resolve could be nasty. The Land Speeder Vengeance needs a complete re-write in it's main weapon so it's not complete trash. Something like a Mortal wound on a roll of 1 rather than what we have now.

Terminators just need a straight up buff. 3 wound, 3 attacks, Not suffering penalty for moving & shooting. DW knights should be 2+ BS.

[jbaeza94]

Terminators just need a straight up buff. 3 wound, 3 attacks, Not suffering penalty for moving & shooting. DW knights should be 2+ BS.

Why bs2 knights?

Edited July 14, 2019 by jbaeza94

[Guest MistaGav]

Oh sorry meant to be WS 2+

[Solrac]

The problem all marine codex's have at the moment is Guilliman. You can't really improve a data sheet on any given unit to make it better because then Guilliman just makes that unit OP. I also fear that once we get the Lion he will just be a carbon copy of Guilliman unless they can get really creative to give him something better than Guilliman's aura. Competitive wise having the LIon being a carbon copy of G man wouldn't be a bad thing for us but rather quite boring.

 

Changes in general:

• Plasma overheat rule needs to be changed to on a roll of a 1 take a mortal wound rather than outright dead model. This would make things more uniform and wouldn't need to have different weapons for vehicles just to change the rules e.g Plasma Cannon vs Heavy Plasma Cannon.
• Lower the cost of all psykers however Psychic Powers need to cost points. This will balance out Eldar and Chaos Daemons who have been at the top of the tier for a very long time.

 

What I would like to see for Dark Angels specifically:

• Grim Resolve BS5+ in overwatch instead of re-roll 1s to hit when stationary. Stratagem to give an infantry squad full BS overwatch.
• Ravenwing to not receive Grim Resolve instead they get a rule to make their rapid fire and heavy weapons count as assault when they advance.
• Plasma Mastery of some sort
• Dark Angels to be able to use both types of Centurions and Thunderfire Cannons
• Primaris Eliminators to go to unit size of 3 - 10 (3 - 6 at minimum)

• All space marine tanks go back to 1 to 3 squadrons. That would make Predators worth it again to try and use Killshot.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Solrac

[Berzul]

Id like to see a lot of fixes applied to the Deathwing.

 

Ive already posted a lot of them, here http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355163-improving-the-deathwing-in-the-dark-angels-codex/?do=findComment&comment=5299054

[Isual]

Landspeeder Vengeance Not burning out his Main weapon on the first overheat, no other Plasma weapon dies this.

The nefalim jetfighter, a air superiority fighter, beeing especially bad against Flyers (hitting on 5+). The FW interceptor shows how its done.

[Angel of Solitude]

The one change I'd like to see is no -1 to hit penalty for any Ravenwing heavy weapons. Mostly I'm thinking of multi-meltas here on attack bikes and land speeders, no way I'm going to risk a single S8 shot on a 4+, and I can't rely on Sammael being everywhere at once on the table.

 

This change would also push the Talonmaster to hit on 3+ when moving, which feels more fitting to one of the most skilled pilots in the whole of the Ravenwing.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

My wishlisting is just: give me fair prices and ensure every unit is useful.

[Berzul]

Lets see.

 

... I do think Grim Resolve works fine. Gaining a +1 to hit or something to that effect would unbalance the plasma weaponry.

 

At the same time, I'd make plasma overheating cause a mortal wound, not straight up death.

 

Talking of Plasma, I'd change the LSV to fire 2D3 shots instead of 1D6, and I'd make it cause 1 mortal wound per overheat. At most 2 (since its a battery composed of 2 guns). And I'd remove the stupid 'it can never be used again' rule. That is just idiotic.

 

I'd make HEAVY plasma cannons, like the one on a Dreadnought, fire at S7 AP-3 D2, instead of S7 AP-3 D1, and gain +1S and +1D on the overcharge. Never made sense to me why the heavy plasma cannon would be the same as the regular plasma cannon.

 

I'd make a lot of fixes to the deathwing, as I've already mentioned in my previous post.

 

I'd rehaul a LOT of our stratagems. Like, A LOT of them. Mainly to create better synergy between the DW and the RW.

 

I'd change the DW special rules into something more useful. Rerrolling vs Fallen should be a lore-based extra added to the rule, not the core of the rule.

[ValourousHeart]

I'd like to see them switch Jink and Icon of Old Calaban around.

 

Jink in its original form made RW harder to hit, not harder to kill.  It was the exact same rule as what the Dark Shroud does currently.  Jink in its original form only required us to move, but it did not prevent us from shooting.  Add a required minimum move distance, but don't prevent us from shooting.

 

They could even give us back expert rider.  Which is what allowed us to move and fire without penalty.  It could look something like this.  So attack bikes and speeders can move half speed and ignore the -1 to hit, or bikes and speeders can move full speed and gain -1 to be hit.  

 

The Icon of Old Calaban giving an 5++ or 4++ to near by units would make it more useful in more builds as it would help out units in and out of cover.

[Isual]

I'd change the DW special rules into something more useful. Rerrolling vs Fallen should be a lore-based extra added to the rule, not the core of the rule.

 

Why not scrap in entirely? I mean fallen on the table are freaking rare, even more so than they are described in the lore. The one and only reason someone will ever field a lackluster unit like them is because he feels bad for us and wants to do us a favour. Seriously, I do more expect to meet a unicorn riding leprechaun than honestly played fallen.

 

So, thats my little rant for the day.

[Angel of Solitude]

It's a fair little rant. While I appreciate what GW have tried to do, it does annoy me the wasted stratagems they have created in the name of "fluff". We and the Space Wolves suffer twice (Fallen/Wolves for us, DA/1kSons for Wolves), and 1ksons also suffer to. The more recent codexes just have pure power stratagems that can be used against any opponent.

 

The fact that one of the most fearsome first companies in the galaxy only distinguish themselves against a single foe just does not seem right.

[Gederas]

Honestly, one of the things I wanted was this:

Get rid of the bonuses against Fallen and give the Dark Angels ARMY-WIDE bonuses against things with the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. Bonuses to hit and wound, whatever. The whole thing with Dark Angels is that for the brothers who don't know about the Fallen, Dark Angels as a whole HATE traitors. So why not reflect that in the rules?

 

I do agree on the Plasma bonuses though. Like, for crying out loud, KHÂRN THE BETRAYER has a better Plasma Pistol than the entire Dark Angels chapter as his only does Mortal Wounds to himself (it's always overcharged).

Edited July 15, 2019 by Gederas

[Interrogator Stobz]

PA marines (except Primaris) gain 1W, 1A and all Bolter weapons get at least -1AP (Hvy Bolter -2AP).

 

DW gain 2W, 1T and Stormbolters get pistol so they can be better against hordes in combat.

 

Plasma fails only causing 1MW.

 

Vehicles gain no -1 for moving whilst firing heavy weapons.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Interrogator Stobz

[Berzul]

So, to sum up and round down, I'd say then that some reasonable changes could be:

 

1) Change jink into "Ravenwing units that move their entire move stat gain -1 to be hit. If they advance/turbo boost, they gain an additional -1 to be hit"

 

2) Keep Speed of the Raven as is.

 

3) Give Ravenwing Vehicles and Attack Bikes the ability of not suffering penalties to firing heavy weapons, as long as they move no farther than half their move speed and did not advance/turbo boost.

 

4) Keep the Icon of Old Caliban as is (its a mantle of darkness after all). Would make turbo boosting bikes at -3 to be hit.

 

5) Take put Inner Circle as a special rule. It is absolutely pointless. Change it for something else (still trying to figure out what)

 

6) Give Heavy Plasma Cannons +1D

 

7) Make Plasma Overcharge do a MW, not outright kill you

 

8) Remove the "the weapon cannot fire again" rule of the LSV. Make it just cause 2 MWs.

 

9) Make the Plasma Battery of the LSV fire 2D3 not 1D6, and make it S8/S9

 

10) Give the Terminators the ability to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty

 

11) Make a stratagem that turns Storm Bolters inti Pistol 2 or Pistol 4 type weapons for a phase, for DW Terminators

[G8Keeper]

Make the crux terminatus save work against mortal wounds.

 

Make watchers in the dark more of a thing. Any deathwing keyword can take one. Gives a deny the witch within 12" or if taken on a librarian can give +1 power or +1 to cast or something.

Edited July 15, 2019 by G8Keeper

[Solrac]

 

I'd make HEAVY plasma cannons, like the one on a Dreadnought, fire at S7 AP-3 D2, instead of S7 AP-3 D1, and gain +1S and +1D on the overcharge. Never made sense to me why the heavy plasma cannon would be the same as the regular plasma cannon.

 

As both infantry and dreadnoughts have plasma cannon option, they made a dreadnought equivalent a heavy plasma cannon so that it could have different overheat rules to the infantry version. In all other respects it's the same weapon.

[ValourousHeart]

So, to sum up and round down, I'd say then that some reasonable changes could be:

 

1) Change jink into "Ravenwing units that move their entire move stat gain -1 to be hit. If they advance/turbo boost, they gain an additional -1 to be hit"

 

4) Keep the Icon of Old Caliban as is (its a mantle of darkness after all). Would make turbo boosting bikes at -3 to be hit.

 

The game already has -1 to hit if you move with heavy weapons and -1 to hit if shooting at flyers, giving RW the option for -3 is a bridge to far.  Because that would make our dark talon -4 to be hit if the unit stood still and -5 to be hit if they moved.

 

I think it makes more sense to make the Icon of Old Caliban function more like a shield generator / void shield instead of a smoke machined.

 

We have several ways to adjust the survivability of our units... affect the To Hit, To Wound, Armor Save, and Invulnerable Save.  For non-unique units, there isn't much of a reason to double up the same ability.  However I think unique units can have similar abilities to normal units.

 

So giving he Dark Shroud an invulnerable save similar to Azreal means that they still work together just in a slightly different way.

[G8Keeper]

I like the idea but i'd make it a once per game thing and keep the -1 to hit. I think that's worth it and fair for it's current points cost.

 

This thread makes me want to go and play test stuff.

[Angel of Solitude]

Just circling back to Grim Resolve, I've always thought the "never lose more than one model as the result of any single failed Morale test" seems very redundant with an MSU approach.

 

It feels that the way they intended for this rule to be played is for you to have a max-sized squad of Intercessors sat on an objective, endlessly dishing out a hail of bolter shots into oncoming enemies.The re-roll 1's gives you good hit efficiency, while the no more than one model reflects the nature of Dark Angels to stoically hold their ground. Alternatively, imagine a 10-strong unit of Scouts sat in cover in an advanced position.

 

The problems with this tactic as I see it are as follows:

1. The need for CP means that you go for MSU, which means you're more likely to see your unit be destroyed than to lose a single morale test;
2. The ObSec nature of troops means that you're likely to need your units to be mobile, thus missing out on the re-roll 1's.

To improve this rule, I would suggest the following:

1. Change the max one unit lost to perhaps +1 Ld. This would not just provide some benefit to morale, but would also give an additional buff to psychic powers / stratagems that make use of leadership.
2. Make it re-roll of 1s so long as the unit didn't fall back or advance - you have to either stand your ground or move forward.

[Fierce Bear]

Just wanted to say some fab suggestions here Brothers.

 

I do think a few minor changes are all that's needed to make the DA competitive, some of the Terminator suggestions to make loyalist Termies as a whole are fantastic.

 

Something to synergise the 'Wings' would be great (infact the reliance on a battalion for 5cp I think lately is an issue for DA... Apocalypse doesn't make battalions quite so necessary)

 

Perhaps the rumoured SM codex update will make clear the fighting style of the Marines and the DA etc will get an adjustment not long after.

 

Again loving the passion for the DA!