DA 8.5 Codex wishlisting

[Zustiur]

I agree with almost all of that from Zustiur. One thing I would keep the same is the assault 2 plasma talons, they just work well with the way black knights play, not to mention speed of the raven stratagem.

That's the beauty of it though; I said Rapid Fire 2 for talons. Couple that with the Jink rule I proposed and you can still advance and shoot twice at 18". Pop Speed of the Raven, count as stationary for no penalty to hit...

 

 

Now that I'm posting with the book in front of me, some more:

* The Chapter Ancient should have 4 banner options, selected before the battle begins. The Chapter banner and the 3 sacred standards. I still can't believe the Blood Angels stole our Standard of Fortitude.

* Deathwing Champion, reduced by about 30 points. No way should this guy cost more than a master in terminator armour with relic blade. The halberd is nice, but it's not amazing enough to make up for the extra attack and re-roll hits bubble. 90 points is a lot more appropriate than 118!

* Honestly, all the deathwing and ravenwing elite characters need a hefty reduction.

* Ravenwing and Deathwing standards need to add +1 to leadership like the Company and Chapter banner. These shouldn't stack though.

* The Nephilim Jetfighter could take a leaf out of the Stormhawk's book; +1 to hit units that Fly. -1 to be hit by units that Fly. Either that, or change it's fluff to say 'ground attack' instead of 'air superiority'. A points reduction wouldn't hurt either.

* Fortress of shields should return to being a unit rule instead of a stratagem.

 

Even with all these changes, I don't think we'd be as powerful as the newly released chapter supplements. We'd be getting close, and I think would be a fair match for most other armies out there, which I see as a good thing.

[Berzul]

More than 30 points, really.

 

Think about it like this.

 

The Company Champion has a cost of 44 points.

 

When compared to him, what advantages does the DW Champion have?

 

Let's compare.

 

They both have:

 

1) the same WS,

2) same S,

3) same T,

4) same number of attacks,

5) same Leadership (and morale is of no consequence for a character so, Inner Circle is useless)

6) Honor or Death

7) A 5++ save

8) A S+3, Dd3 close combat weapon

 

The things the DW Champion has over the Company Champion are:

 

1) One more wound (5 instead of 4), and one more point of armor (2+ instead of 3+)

2) Takes extra room in transports (not that big a deal)

3) But, can teleport (which makes him just as susceptible to the pains of not getting charges in with our non-charge boosting codex)

4) Also, once he lands, he has that 5" movement instead of a 6" one

5) His weapon does have AP -4 instead of AP -3.... which is usually of little consequence, but still nice to have

6) But his weapon is designed to kill units of 5+ models, getting an awesome D3 extra attacks against such enemies. Which is nice to have, but weird. You'd expect an AP-4 weapon to be designed against vehicles and heavy armor, not against hordes of models.

7) It can benefit from the Deathwing Ancient, which is excellent, but only when you can afford both characters in the same army, and can keep them together into the fray.

 

So, in the end, the DW Champion is pretty much the same as the company champion, only he can Deep Strike, has 1 less inch of movement, has 1 more Wound and one more point to his Regular Saves, gets some more attacks in VERY situational conditions, all made at the same WS and with an equivalent weapon to the Blade of Caliban.

 

You really thing this guy should cost 268% the cost of a regular company champion?

 

I'd say that ALL characters of the command squads of all need point reductions, but in no case is it more necessary than with the DW Champion. The guy should be costing a LOT less. I'd say he should be at around 60-65 points, at the most.

[Zustiur]

Yep I'd agree with all of that, I just hadn't thought to compare him to a non Terminator.

60 sounds about right.

Similar for the ancient, apothecary and ravenwing guys.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Zustiur

[Berzul]

He is just a company champion in TDA. No reason for that costing 78 extra points.

[Chaplain Elijah]

/// wishlist for Dark Angels in Psychic Awakening ///

 

Angels of Death

And They Shall Know No Fear, Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault and Combat Doctrines.

 

Plasma Mastery

Whilst a Combat Doctrine is active, Armour Penetration is improved by 2 instead of 1 for Plasma-based Weaponry.

 

Litanies of Battle

Access to them and a new DA's specific :

 

Incitation of Tenacity

If this litany is inspiring, select one friendly Dark Angels unit within 6'' of this model.

When a model from this unit lose a Wound, on a roll of 6 that Wound is not lost. If the model already had that rule, add +1 to the result.

[HandsWithLegs]

/// wishlist for Dark Angels in Psychic Awakening ///

 

Angels of Death

And They Shall Know No Fear, Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault and Combat Doctrines.

 

Plasma Mastery

Whilst a Combat Doctrine is active, Armour Penetration is improved by 2 instead of 1 for Plasma-based Weaponry.

 

Litanies of Battle

Access to them and a new DA's specific :

 

Incitation of Tenacity

If this litany is inspiring, select one friendly Dark Angels unit within 6'' of this model.

When a model from this unit lose a Wound, on a roll of 6 that Wound is not lost. If the model already had that rule, add +1 to the result.

While I like the idea of getting a plasma boost, with the AP plasma already has I feel like the effect of an extra -1 is pretty much negligible. Hopefully we get something a bit stronger than that

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

/// wishlist for Dark Angels in Psychic Awakening ///

 

Angels of Death

And They Shall Know No Fear, Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault and Combat Doctrines.

 

Plasma Mastery

Whilst a Combat Doctrine is active, Armour Penetration is improved by 2 instead of 1 for Plasma-based Weaponry.

 

Litanies of Battle

Access to them and a new DA's specific :

 

Incitation of Tenacity

If this litany is inspiring, select one friendly Dark Angels unit within 6'' of this model.

When a model from this unit lose a Wound, on a roll of 6 that Wound is not lost. If the model already had that rule, add +1 to the result.

While I like the idea of getting a plasma boost, with the AP plasma already has I feel like the effect of an extra -1 is pretty much negligible. Hopefully we get something a bit stronger than that

 

 

 

Maybe we could improve it a little bit with a popular suggestion :

 

Plasma Mastery

The bearer is never slain when Overcharging Plasma, instead he suffers 1 Mortal Wound.

Whilst a Combat Doctrine is active, Armour Penetration is improved by 2 instead of 1 for Plasma-based Weaponry.

[Berzul]

The problem with the mortal wounds over instant death thing, is a flaw of design.

 

If you allowed for that, you could end up with a squad with wounds spread over many models. Which goed against the design of the game, where wounds always mount up on the already wounded model in a unit, until it is dead. Which is why only (some) characters or vehicles have the "wound, not death" exception to plasma overcharge.

 

Imagine a squad of 10 helblasters, where you roll and ger 4 resulta of 1. Nos you have 4 'models' with a mortal wound each. That's what GW has tried to avoid.

 

I'd suggest a variation to the rule, and just make it so on each doctrine, plasma weapons of a type have +1D.

 

Heavy (like plasma cannons) on the Devastator Doctrine.

Rapid Fire and Assault (like plasma guns and plasma talons) on the Combat Doctrine.

Pistols (on the assault doctrine).

 

Imagine a helblaster squad firing at D4 with doctrines, overcharge and WotDA!

[Angel of Solitude]

The way that GW has been doing the "super doctrines" is only one of the 3 doctrines is replaced. I do agree that something plasma-focused - like the way the Salamanders have flame/melta - is something we could expect.

 

Our "super doctrine" could, for example, make all rapid fire plasma guns assault weapons, and have no negative hit modifiers. That would allow your Hellblasters/Inceptors to advance on down the fields, and allow you to get Jink on your Black Knighs without suffering a penalty to hit.

[Chaplain Elijah]

I'd suggest a variation to the rule, and just make it so on each doctrine, plasma weapons of a type have +1D.

 

Heavy (like plasma cannons) on the Devastator Doctrine.

Rapid Fire and Assault (like plasma guns and plasma talons) on the Combat Doctrine.

Pistols (on the assault doctrine).

 

Imagine a helblaster squad firing at D4 with doctrines, overcharge and WotDA!

 

Yeah i though about it but it does sounds a little overkill. Would be great indeed.

 

 

 

Our "super doctrine" could, for example, make all rapid fire plasma guns assault weapons, and have no negative hit modifiers. That would allow your Hellblasters/Inceptors to advance on down the fields, and allow you to get Jink on your Black Knighs without suffering a penalty to hit.

 

Outside of Ravenwing GW doesn't seem to see DA as a run&gun faction according to our rules "don't move and get buffed" such as grim resolve or the tenacious warlord trait.

And given BKs are going to get a points decrease i feel they aren't to get buffed anytime soon.

[Berzul]

Yeah, a boost to move-and-shoot is something that would go against Grim Resolve.

 

Maybe it could be something that combines well with grim resolve, such as, while the devastator doctrine is active, a model that did not move in the previous moving phase, can rerroll 1s to wound on any attack made with a plasma weapon?

 

I imagine a Helblaster of Plasma Devastator Squad, sitting on turn 1, firing with rerrolls to fire and to wound, thanks to grim resolve and the super doctrine.

[Blindhamster]

Maybe they could say rapid fire and assault plasma weapons dont overheat whilst in tactical doctrine.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Would combine well with Grim Resolve rerolls to-hit :

Plasma Mastery
When using Plasma-based Weaponry, on a hit roll of 6 the target suffers 1 additional hit.

[templarphoenix]

Give Ravenwing and Deathwing object secured and bring back their former glory.

[HandsWithLegs]

It would be nice to give deathwing some way to make charges easier. A deathwing lieutenant equivalent like the tallonmaster maybe?

[Chaplain Elijah]

Moar special rules !

 

Grim Resolve

Re-roll 1 to hit when shooting (including Overwatch) if the model didn't move in its own previous movement phase. When taking a Moral Test, roll two dice and discard one.

 

Inner Circle

Immune to Moral Test. Damage against a model with this rule are at -1 to a minimum of 1.

 

Plasma Supremacy

Whilst a Combat Doctrine is active, excess wounds caused by Plasma-based Weaponry carry over to the rest of the targeted unit.

[Berzul]

I'd go like this:

Grim Resolve

Re-roll 1 to hit when shooting (including Overwatch) if the model didn't move in its previous movement phase. A unit with this special rule cannot lose more than 1 model due to failing a Morale Test

 

(rolling two dice is a bit much, I think, when compounded with ATSNKF)

 

Inner Circe

Unit passes all morale tests automatically.

Unit always uses its highest leadership value for the purposes of powers, rules or attacks based off of leadership, discarding any penalization applied by any other special rule.

Unit can re-roll all hit rolls of 1 against any Chaos Space Marine model, and can re-roll all hit rolls against any Fallen model.

 

BONUS: Armor of the First Legion

A model equipped with Terminator Armor reduces all damage dealt by an attack against it by 1 to a minimum of 1.

 

Plasma Supremacy

While the Devastator Doctrine is active, any unmodified hit roll of 6 with a shooting attack with a plasma based weapon causes one mortal wound in addition to the damage of the attack.

[Chaplain Elijah]

@Berzul

 

That's way too many rules for Inner Circle i think, and the rerolls to-hit are way too circumstantial.

Here's a variant :

 

 

Inner Circle

The model and any DARK ANGELS unit that are 6'' or less from it are immune to Moral Test.

When wounded, a model with this rule and the TERMINATOR keyword suffer -1 damage to a minimum of 1.

 

 

I believe this set of rules would benefit to all kinds of entries with Inner Circle in our codex.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Elijah

[Berzul]

But, the -1 to be damagedcomes from... What?

 

Their righteous desire for absolution, due to knowing of the fallen?

 

Knowledge does not stop bullets. It should be the armor that does that

[Neuralshock]

Personally I don't want to see any kind of morale traits, marines generally don't care. I think the enhanced part of the chapter tactic should be about holding ground or holding firm. Maybe armor pen is ignored for units wholly within 6 inches of an objective?

[Chaplain Elijah]

But, the -1 to be damagedcomes from... What?

 

Their righteous desire for absolution, due to knowing of the fallen?

 

Knowledge does not stop bullets. It should be the armor that does that

 

That's what it does :

 

Inner Circle

When leading their brothers in battle, the members of the Inner Circle never turn their back to adversity. The Deathwing in particular is renowned for it's tenacity.

The model and any DARK ANGELS unit that are 6'' or less from it are immune to Moral Test.

When wounded, a model with this rule and the TERMINATOR keyword suffer -1 damage to a minimum of 1.

 

Personally I don't want to see any kind of morale traits, marines generally don't care.

Agree but some of our brothers doesn't seem to share that opinion.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Elijah

[Berzul]

Yeah but, being tenacious might reflect on them not being subject to morale. But, tenacity should not affect their physiology.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Yeah but, being tenacious might reflect on them not being subject to morale. But, tenacity should not affect their physiology.

My point is : crunch over fluff.

[Berzul]

 

Yeah but, being tenacious might reflect on them not being subject to morale. But, tenacity should not affect their physiology.

My point is : crunch over fluff.

 

 

 

How dare you!

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Berzul