DA 8.5 Codex wishlisting

[Neuralshock]

Lots of cool ideas out there! Here are some of my thoughts:

 

I like the changes to the lsv, but I would argue for 2d6 so it's weight of fire is on par with other big plasma. The general consensus seems to be that having a rule that allows the best fast attack force in the imperium be able to shoot their guns AND go fast is highly desired. Personally I like the version I put forth as it has precedent in the game now and is a bit simpler to grasp.

 

As far as plasma is concerned, I don't see why changing infantry plasma overcharge to a mortal wound would do anything differently than add a jank mechanic (BROTHER, hold my weapon for me for a second :| ). I do agree that heavy plasma weaponry mounted on vehicles should be harder hitting to differentiate it. On a broader mechanical standpoint, I think they should change gets hot to only be unmodified ones. More on that in a minute.

 

I don't think we've talked about the strats we have and how they can be better. Personally, WotDA should give +1 to wound as well as +1 D to make punching through vehicles more reliable. There should be a teleport homer strat (and why there isn't one already?) Along with fortress of shields working through the shooting and fight phases. These are just the ones that come to mind right now.

 

I'm thinking gw is going to declare war on -1 to hits with the leaked stats of Gabriel Angelo's having "reroll all hits" which leads me to think all chapter masters (and our equivalents) are going to have these rules as well. With that in mind changing the gets hot mechanic to only go off on unmodified ones gets rid of the weird mechanic that something that's harder to hit = accidentally killing yourself. The trade-off is that there will be no such thing as "safe overcharge" with +1 BS mods. Just some thoughts

[Angel of Solitude]

I'm thinking gw is going to declare war on -1 to hits with the leaked stats of Gabriel Angelo's having "reroll all hits" which leads me to think all chapter masters (and our equivalents) are going to have these rules as well. With that in mind changing the gets hot mechanic to only go off on unmodified ones gets rid of the weird mechanic that something that's harder to hit = accidentally killing yourself. The trade-off is that there will be no such thing as "safe overcharge" with +1 BS mods. Just some thoughts

The "Re-roll all hit rolls" is something that is also used in the recent Codex: Chaos Knights, and as somebody also pointed out, Belasarius Cawl has this ability in the Index. But I do agree: if you set the precedent for one Space Marine chapter master, then logically the same should be true for all the others. This can only be a good thing!

 

Regarding the "safe overcharge", I actually submitted the "unmodified roll of 1" suggestion to GW, so great minds think alike! However, on reflection, I guess the argument goes like this: flyers and the like have negative hit modifiers due to their speed / maneuverability / warp interference. To counter this, the Space Marine requires greater concentration on aiming...which may cause them to concentrate less on the safe operation of their plasma weapon. Having said that, it does get a bit ridiculous when you're -3 to hit, and you risk overcharging on a roll of 1, 2, 3 and 4...

[ValourousHeart]

I do agree that heavy plasma weaponry mounted on vehicles should be harder hitting to differentiate it.

 

I think this should be addressed in a more wide sweeping change to Vehicles.  Except for Chaos and Imperial, all of the other factions have a distinct profile for man-portable weapons and a different one for Vehicle mounted versions.  That change allows GW to make nuanced changes specific to how a weapon performs based on the way that weapon is carried into battle.  It also means they don't have to overload the vehicles of that faction with rules, because half of their rules are covered in the armory.   This also means that they would still be able to use the current profile to represent tanks they really want to sit still while they fire.

[Solrac]

 

I'm thinking gw is going to declare war on -1 to hits with the leaked stats of Gabriel Angelo's having "reroll all hits" which leads me to think all chapter masters (and our equivalents) are going to have these rules as well. With that in mind changing the gets hot mechanic to only go off on unmodified ones gets rid of the weird mechanic that something that's harder to hit = accidentally killing yourself. The trade-off is that there will be no such thing as "safe overcharge" with +1 BS mods. Just some thoughts

The "Re-roll all hit rolls" is something that is also used in the recent Codex: Chaos Knights, and as somebody also pointed out, Belasarius Cawl has this ability in the Index. But I do agree: if you set the precedent for one Space Marine chapter master, then logically the same should be true for all the others. This can only be a good thing!

 

Cawl's re-roll hit's aura only works in the shooting phase. Gabriel Angelos will be the first to have this kind of aura that works in both shooting and overwatch not that it will matter too much in overwatch.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Solrac

[shabbadoo]

I don't really have much in the way of codex wish list, but a core rules wish list:

 

1. Plasma overheating does one mortal wound, per 1 rolled on the dice. A Rapid Fire 1 plasma gun could at most cause 2 mortal wounds if 1's came up on both dice if it were rapid fired. A plasma storm battery (Heavy 6) could cause up to 6 mortal wounds if 1's came up on six rolled dice.

2. Flamer weapons and former Blast weapons need to cause more hits/get more shots scalable to the size of the weapon used. Multiple D3's would be better than individual D6's, though I'd bump that up a bit: D3+1 (hand flamer/small blast), 2D3+2(flamer/large blast), 3D3+3(heavy flamer/huge blast), etc. Should result in some hits, probably some wounds, and some saves will probably need to be rolled. No more of this, "I UNLEASH my demolisher cannon upon the heretic terminators!" [rolls a 1; rolls to hit and misses]. Well, that would be a hell of a lot less likely, at least. Turret guns and big bore artillery should be fearsome, and most are not.

 

...and a dependent wish:

 

3. If many penalties to hit are kept, then bring back some bonuses to hit, namely Pistols/non-Rapid Fire/non-Heavy weapons getting +1 to hit at half range.

 

One codex wish:

 

1. Ravenwing abilities. Grim Resolve lets them re-roll 1's if they don't move, and Jink makes them more harder to kill when they move faster, but at the cost of not

being able to shoot most weapons or Assault at all. Ravenwing unit types are so counter to the core Dark Angels Chapter tactic that it is what needs to be

changed when used by them:

 

    Ravenwing: Models with this rule can re-roll 1's for Grim Resolve even when they have Moved or Advanced*.

 

THE core Dark Angels ability has been modified by the Chapter's freaks of nature *TO SUIT THEIR VERY NATURE!!!*  Holy crap! The Ravenwing are now hunting outriders, as they should be!

 

    *And of course weapons that can NOT be fired when Advancing can NOT be fired using this rule! Sorry, can't have everything. This ability would apply to RW Bikes and RW Attack

     Bikes, with any possibly later vehicle version of Grim Resolve being modified to use for the different RW Land Speeders and RW Fliers (probably just the re re-roll 1's bit, not the

     Morale bit).

 

The Speed of the Raven stratagem is still there to give a bump to Advancing units too, who will gain Jink and full Shoot/Assault capability while there are Command Points to use for it.

 

Don't really have much else to nitpick over.

Edited July 18, 2019 by shabbadoo

[Berzul]

A squad that always rerrolls 1's no matter the circumstance might be too powerful

[shabbadoo]

A horde force, perhaps. A small elite force, no. And it is not "not matter the circumstance." Besides, 1/6 of rolls will miss with a 1, and 2/3rds of the re-rolls will hit (less if firing Assault weapons when Advancing). This is not as many extra hits as you might think, and so not too powerful. Horde Bad Moons armies are not exactly mowing down anything and everything they come across, and everything but Grot-based units has such a rule. And this rule doesn't apply to the bikes' twin bolters if they Advance, as those weapons can't fire in that circumstance.

 

Besides, Jink mostly guts this ability. Does any other unit in the game have an ability that guts their other ability? None I can think of. Some Primaris unit perhaps, becuz they iz stoopid that way.

 

So, Ravenwing would then have two half-arsed abilities which, when put together, would make for one full-arsed ability. Sort of.

Edited July 18, 2019 by shabbadoo

[Hantheman]

Yeah it's amazing that we got such a terrible re-roll system. Salamanders is waaaay better than ours with no limitation, in the context of elite armies

 

I'd make space marine bikes 3 wounds

Edited July 18, 2019 by Hantheman

[Berzul]

By the way, what is the logic of a bike giving a model a T5, but a Terminator having a T4?

 

Is there a reason for this?

[BlackTriton]

By the way, what is the logic of a bike giving a model a T5, but a Terminator having a T4?

 

Is there a reason for this?

Its an artefact of previous editions.

When they changed the wounding and AP system, they kept the stats as they where in 7ed. This is the origins of the worst part about 8ed, the system is fine, but the values are wrong for so many things.

[ValourousHeart]

 

By the way, what is the logic of a bike giving a model a T5, but a Terminator having a T4?

 

Is there a reason for this?

Its an artefact of previous editions.

When they changed the wounding and AP system, they kept the stats as they where in 7ed. This is the origins of the worst part about 8ed, the system is fine, but the values are wrong for so many things.

 

Berzul, the reason bikes are T5 and TDA space marines are T4 is because in 40k mounts are appraised different to their riders.  In the very early editions, bikes were treated as a vehicle you rode like a mount... because that is what they are in our world.  For cavalry the horse or exotic mount had a different profile to the rider.  In both cases, bikes and cavalry, shots and hits were randomized between the rider and the mount.

 

When games were 15 to 20 models per side, this layer of complication seems to help distinguish units from each other.  It was also an easy way to flesh out all of the armies... this is the standard profile for a horse, and the rider followed the basic profile of the army.  However when the armies started getting bigger, it was determined to forego this level of nuance for something a bit more streamlined.  So to account for the fact that 50% of the shots could have hit the bike and 50% of those hits could have failed to penetrate the armor, bikes were given an extra pip of toughness.

 

A very similar progression happened with TDA Space Marines.  In the earlier editions all weapons applied a negative modifier to armor saves, what we currently call AP.  Power armor gave marines a 3+ save on 1d6 just like we have now.  The TDA bonus was that you got to roll an extra dice and add the results, so it was a 3+ save on 2d6.  At the time the lascannon had a -6 AP, so PA marines were screwed, but TDA could save if they rolled a 9+ on 2d6.  When they shifted armor saves to all be on 1d6, GW set the TDA save as a 2+, and shortly after that because of feedback from players, they added a 5++ invulnerable save to account for the fact that they always played up that TDA units could on occasion take a lascannon to the face and survive.

 

This is also why I think that jink needs to change.  Because it was warped into an invulnerable save which was never intended.  GW had moved away from to hit modifiers so in making Jink an invulnerable save meant that it became far to powerful, and so to balance that out they made it a choice between having a better save or getting to shoot.  But this was done to a unit whose sole role was to be a shooting unit.

 

In the early days, Tactical, Assault and Bikes had a clean balance.  5 assault marines did as many CC attacks as 10 Tactical marines.  And 5 bike had as many shots as 10 tactical marines.  So the change to Jink where it prevented shooting was a real kick in the teeth for bikes.  It would have been the equivalent of preventing assault marines from charging if they used their jump packs to move over terrain.

 

Now that they have gone back to hit modifiers, it is time for Jink to return to its roots.

Edited July 18, 2019 by ValourousHeart

[dice4thedicegod]

I remember when TDA first came out in white dwarf. Only 1W, T3 and a 2+ save (with a 6+ invulnerable) (not that we called it invulnerable back then you whippersnappers). Mind you, still a lot better than regular marines T3 and 4+ armor as it was then.

 

8th is better than 1st!

[Neuralshock]

I don't really have much in the way of codex wish list, but a core rules wish list:

 

1. Plasma overheating does one mortal wound, per 1 rolled on the dice. A Rapid Fire 1 plasma gun could at most cause 2 mortal wounds if 1's came up on both dice if it were rapid fired. A plasma storm battery (Heavy 6) could cause up to 6 mortal wounds if 1's came up on six rolled dice.

2. Flamer weapons and former Blast weapons need to cause more hits/get more shots scalable to the size of the weapon used. Multiple D3's would be better than individual D6's, though I'd bump that up a bit: D3+1 (hand flamer/small blast), 2D3+2(flamer/large blast), 3D3+3(heavy flamer/huge blast), etc. Should result in some hits, probably some wounds, and some saves will probably need to be rolled. No more of this, "I UNLEASH my demolisher cannon upon the heretic terminators!" [rolls a 1; rolls to hit and misses]. Well, that would be a hell of a lot less likely, at least. Turret guns and big bore artillery should be fearsome, and most are not.

Disagree on the mortal wound bit, it would allow players to shift that mw to a non plasma marine.

 

I do like the suggestion of moving blast templates to a flat #+d3 to make things less swingy, plus it makes the big guns a bigger threat

[Berzul]

 

I don't really have much in the way of codex wish list, but a core rules wish list:

 

1. Plasma overheating does one mortal wound, per 1 rolled on the dice. A Rapid Fire 1 plasma gun could at most cause 2 mortal wounds if 1's came up on both dice if it were rapid fired. A plasma storm battery (Heavy 6) could cause up to 6 mortal wounds if 1's came up on six rolled dice.

2. Flamer weapons and former Blast weapons need to cause more hits/get more shots scalable to the size of the weapon used. Multiple D3's would be better than individual D6's, though I'd bump that up a bit: D3+1 (hand flamer/small blast), 2D3+2(flamer/large blast), 3D3+3(heavy flamer/huge blast), etc. Should result in some hits, probably some wounds, and some saves will probably need to be rolled. No more of this, "I UNLEASH my demolisher cannon upon the heretic terminators!" [rolls a 1; rolls to hit and misses]. Well, that would be a hell of a lot less likely, at least. Turret guns and big bore artillery should be fearsome, and most are not.

Disagree on the mortal wound bit, it would allow players to shift that mw to a non plasma marine.

 

I do like the suggestion of moving blast templates to a flat #+d3 to make things less swingy, plus it makes the big guns a bigger threat

Could be changed into:

 

The model is slain. If the model is a character or a vehicle, instead it takes a mortal wound.

 

Simple.

[G8Keeper]

On the subject of jink; I would like to see it as the last ditch save it always felt like from it's original conception.  Maybe a 6+ feel no pain-esque save ala disgustingly resilient, would it warrant 5+?? I have also previously suggested this for the Crux Terminatus on termies but I think it would better serve the fluff on RW.

[shabbadoo]

By the way, what is the logic of a bike giving a model a T5, but a Terminator having a T4?

 

Is there a reason for this?

Bikes are ridden by guys in armor...who are covered by the bike (which are built Imperial Tough, meaning almost stupidly up-armored and full of redundant/resilient systems). Harder to wound a guy when he is in the cover of a big lump of metal bike. Terminators are guys in heavier armor covered by nothing. You just shoot them. No lump of metal in the way to stop concussive damage or anything more than that. At least they have heavier 2+/5++ armor though). Seems rather logical to me.

 

 

Could be changed into:

 

The model is slain. If the model is a character or a vehicle, instead it takes a mortal wound.

 

Simple.

Not simple enough.  "The model armed with the weapon suffers 1 Mortal Wound." is what is needed. That way characters don't auto-die, vehicles don't auto-die, Terminators don't auto-die, other multi-wound...critters...don't auto-die, etc. It is simply bassakward to create a rule that necessarily requires the creation of a list of exceptions to the rule.  1 Mortal Wound kills everything that should be killed (meaning everything that was previously killed by this effect). Things with more than 1 wound already pay a bunch of points to have such a feature, and it would be nice to maintain that relevance regarding this too, and without any further rules bloat. Kharne's plasma pistol wouldn't need a lame fudge rule was well.

 

 

I don't really have much in the way of codex wish list, but a core rules wish list:

 

1. Plasma overheating does one mortal wound, per 1 rolled on the dice. A Rapid Fire 1 plasma gun could at most cause 2 mortal wounds if 1's came up on both dice if it were rapid fired. A plasma storm battery (Heavy 6) could cause up to 6 mortal wounds if 1's came up on six rolled dice.

Disagree on the mortal wound bit, it would allow players to shift that mw to a non plasma marine.

Sorry. More clarity: "The model armed with the weapon suffers 1 Mortal Wound." No wound shifting.

 

On the subject of jink; I would like to see it as the last ditch save it always felt like from it's original conception.  Maybe a 6+ feel no pain-esque save ala disgustingly resilient, would it warrant 5+?? I have also previously suggested this for the Crux Terminatus on termies but I think it would better serve the fluff on RW.

So RW character models should get an invulnerable save and then an ignore wound save? Yeah, that reeks cheese in the beard, and the less of that the better. Ignore wound "saves" should be really rare, and left for those that it truly fits, like Death Guard and Iron Hands.  Jink already works at the very end, except for the one freak of nature rule you cited, and that is enough.  What would be more accurate is if Jink gave enemies a penalty to shoot at Ravenwing, as Jinking is literally about not being hit in the first place, not about getting hit, getting wounded, and then needing to roll a "I hit you AND wounded you!" "No ya didn't! No ya didn't!" save. Would save time too, and the whole rolling to wound part would be rolling less dice, and the RW would be rolling less save dice. But no, we must roll buckets of dice, because that's how we know we are having fun.

Edited July 24, 2019 by shabbadoo

[G8Keeper]

It would only be Sammael and an Index Interrogator Chaplain who would get an inv. and my suggested jink I believe (I would remove the inv. save for advancing)? I don't think a 6 would be too overpowered but I do take your point that multiple saves do seem cheesy. The problem with the -1 to hitting idea as mentioned already, is that assuming it stacks you have the potential for -3 to hit on our flyers.  I don't believe there should be anything in the game with greater than -2 (that's just me though).

[shabbadoo]

I agree. I previously posted on another thread,

 

...Stacking really needs to die a horribly brutal and ugly death.

So, yes, a limit on things would be good. When models are under the influence of beneficial rules with similar effects, the unit's player chooses which effect applies. When detrimental effects do the same, the opposing player choose which effect applies. With that in mind...

 

Ravenwing = mobile Grim Resolve, and Jink = -2 to be shot at if unit Advances.

 

Gotta keep the Speed of the Raven card in there to use at least once a turn, otherwise Jink is pretty much a turd of a rule; especially for all of the Ravenwing heavy hitters, they being the vehicles.

Edited July 20, 2019 by shabbadoo

[G8Keeper]

I agree. I previously posted on another thread,

 

...Stacking really needs to die a horribly brutal and ugly death.

So, yes, a limit on things would be good. When models are under the influence of beneficial rules with similar effects, the unit's player chooses which effect to applies. When detrimental effects do the same, the opposing player choose which effect applies. With that in mind...

 

Ravenwing = mobile Grim Resolve, and Jink = -2 to be shot at if unit Advances.

 

Gotta keep the Speed of the Raven card in there to use at least once a turn, otherwise Jink is pretty much a turd of a rule; especially for all of the Ravenwing heavy hitters, they being the vehicles.

 

Agree, I would also make all vehicles not suffer the -1 for moving and shooting with heavy weapons, across the board. 

 

Edit: and possibly attack bikes.

Edited July 19, 2019 by G8Keeper

[shabbadoo]

That -1 to hit is somewhat annoying, but I would keep it. That being said, I would limit it to vehicles that are bumping along over the ground (i.e. things moving on tracks/wheels), the exceptions being Walkers and really massive land vehicles (Baneblade, etc.). Skimmers and Fliers should have no such penalties.

 

Another Option for Jink could be...

 

"Jink: The player must declare the unit with this rule is using it Movement Phase. Until the unit's following Turn, it is -2 to hit when shooting at enemy units, and enemy units are -2 to hit when shooting at the unit."

 

Now the ability is not tied to Advancing  at all, yet the unit could still Advance if it wished to. Also, the ability doesn't completely cancel out the unit's attack capability, just penalizes it equitably.

Edited July 20, 2019 by shabbadoo

[Brother_Darius]

So I believe we did something similar back in 6th edition (?). Lots of good suggestions came out of it. One was basically plamatalons. Then lo and behold we got the blackknights.

 

Our suggestions however had them on LR Crusaders. And we didn't have them on bikes but on Attack Bikes! Have boaters along with the MM has not synergy. But an attack bike with Plamatalon and MM? Now we have something.

 

So that what I would like. I would like to be able to field a unit of 1-3 Attackbikes as it's own unit choice and I like to see them have the option of plasmatalons.

[shabbadoo]

So, a Black Knight Attack Bike with plasma talons and a heavy weapon? Not a bad idea. Regular RW Attack Bikes with plasma talons, I'd have to say no to based on the principle of differentiation.

 

Sadly, this will not likely happen, as we are more likely to get some sort of lame-arse, stupidly equipped Primaris units.

 

Ah, there's a real wish for the codex wish list! As the Primaris conversion is inevitable, I do formally wish for Dark Angels specialty Primaris units that have actually been equipped with gear that functions well together!

 

As The Fallen narrative is also likely going to change from one of capturing the lone Fallen here and there to outright conflict with groups of them, we probably need to see how The Fallen are dealt with by the Dark Angels change too. By that I mean, a different kind of Fallen hunting unit. For me, that would be a special Inner Circle Primaris close assault/close combat unit, and perhaps a variant Primaris Eliminator unit.

Edited July 24, 2019 by shabbadoo

[G8Keeper]

If we're going full tilt wish listing, I wish for the Lion.

[Brother_Darius]

So, a Black Knight Attack Bike with plasma talons and a heavy weapon? Not a bad idea. Regular RW Attack Bikes with plasma talons, I'd have to say no to based on the principle of differentiation.

 

Since no other codex can currently field a unit of just AB's, I think if given as a separate unit. that may satisfy for differentiation. Could still keep the single AB upgrades for bike units. But I would not want to see it as a single upgrade for a BK unit(doesn't really improve the utility). Nor would I want to see the stand-alone AB unit, be fully equipped as a BK unit with hammers (AB's should not be used as a H2H unit)

[Berzul]

If we're going full tilt wish listing, I wish for the Lion.

 

 I wish for the Lion not to be just a copy of Guilliman.