DA 8.5 Codex wishlisting

[Hantheman]

 

If we're going full tilt wish listing, I wish for the Lion.

 

 I wish for the Lion not to be just a copy of Guilliman.

 

 

Yeah. Difficult to see how though, especially as I want reroll wounds because it's absolutely busted strong! Haha

 

MAybe a CP power house, or a deepstriking +3 to charge, combat beast. Ignore invuls in the fight phase, Str 10 kinda thing

 

But for us now, god knows. We're in a pretty bad place overall. Half our unique units are totally unplayable, the otherhalf are good but can't use our chapter tactic and with the amound of 2D weapons out there they just die

[G8Keeper]

I dunno, our Primaris are quite strong with Grim Resolve but only if we stay still.  I decimated a GSC army last week with a pure infantry list + Redemptor. I will admit he's new to the army though and they take a hell of a lot of thinking about to get right.  Phobos Masters are pretty good in combat vs chaff, 5+1 attacks hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's is not to be sniffed at, even with just a combat knife.

 

As for the Lion.....

 

It's difficult for GW now that Girlyman has all the re-rolls. They can either copy paste and give some different special rules/weapons or just do re-roll hits and compensate somehow.  Look at 30K, he's going to stop other Primarch's buffs from working, maybe that could be ported over? I'd make more of the watcher in the dark though if it were me. Such an underused plot device in game.

Edited July 25, 2019 by G8Keeper

[Angel of Solitude]

So just on the topic of the Lion, as Berzul has mentioned, it would be difficult to make him different to RG. The Lion was always known for his keen strategic mind, so some sort of CP benefit makes sense. It's also difficult to see why he wouldn't also give IMPERIUM units a buff, given the universal reverence held across the Imperium for Primarchs.

 

However, where I think they can introduce some variety is twofold. First, having just read the Leman Russ Primarch novel, it's clear that the Lion's martial prowess is considerable, and he is seen at the front line leading his elite troops. So I can quite well see him being more of a combat monster than RG, and perhaps give buffs to DW that make them the feared combat unit that they deserve to be.

 

The other difference could be in creating synergies across the three Wings. Per the Horus Heresy, the 1st Legion was known for the hexagrammatic organisation - deploying specialist forces to maximise combat effectiveness. The Deathwing and Ravenwing are legacies of this, so perhaps the Lion could offer a force-wide bonus if you have a force the is made up from Green / Raven / Deathwing units. Some examples:

• Teleport homer: Deathwing can deepstrike 6" away from enemy if within 12" of Ravenwing
• Gunline support: Greenwing get re-roll all hits if a Deathwing unit assaulted in the previous phase

Finally, the one thing that absolutely has to come with the Lion: Watchers in the Dark retinue...

[Isual]

Look at 30K, he's going to stop other Primarch's buffs from working, maybe that could be ported over? 

 

That sounds like something GW would do to us, as it is completely useless in... well 9.5 out of 10 games as it works for 3 models. Just like all the rules regarding the fallen, wich are even more unlikely to come to serve.

[dice4thedicegod]

Ha! Genius - someone who debuffs all other primarchs and the fallen. Has the bonus of also screwing up the one of the only competitive marine (guilliman gunline) builds. How can GW not go for this!?

 

Perhaps for +100 points he can do extra damage against anything with the keywords Caliban and Lion, to reflect his monster hunting prowess? (Note: not the Monster keyword)

[Berzul]

This is devolving into another thread about how our codex is... faulty, really.

 

Are we getting off track?

Because I have a lot to bitch about if we are not.

[G8Keeper]

 

 

Look at 30K, he's going to stop other Primarch's buffs from working, maybe that could be ported over?

That sounds like something GW would do to us, as it is completely useless in... well 9.5 out of 10 games as it works for 3 models. Just like all the rules regarding the fallen, wich are even more unlikely to come to serve.

Well I kinda meant all characters tbh not just primarchs.

[ValourousHeart]

Did they leak the Lion’s 30k rules? I hadn’t seen them.

[Indefragable]

Did they leak the Lion’s 30k rules? I hadn’t seen them.

+1

[Guest Metaliptica]

Not exactly, but we had hints about what he'll look like. His rules are being playtested and he is apparently "top tier". He will be abble to ignore debuffs and deny ennemy buffs, but his strenghts will come from his innate special rules. His wargear will be average for a primarch and will have 2 weapon options : the lion sword and Wolfblade. He will be a very powerful single combatant, but I haven't found anything about how he would buff his army (to reflect the consumate general he is).
I think that's all we have right now.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Metaliptica

[Hellunder]

All good suggestions here! I think there's quite consensus on plasma only overheating on natural 1's, mortal wounds instead of slain models can streamline the game when you don't have to fire 10 rapid fire hellblasters separately.

I think two small stratagems could add some dw/rw synergy without getting op:

Deathwing assault - should cost 1 cp if deep strike next to a ravenwing unit, or it could still be 2/3 CP but you can reroll 1's if  you're close to a ravenwing unit (6").

"Scout and attack" 1 CP - A deathwing unit gets 3D6 charge (or reroll?) when deepstriking within 6" of a ravenwing unit.

 

Speed of the raven: for 3 CP it could cover all ravenwing units? OP? As of now sotr doesn't really help if you have many high priority ravenwing units.

 

In my taste Black Knights plasma talons have too short range to be useful, effective range 38" isn't that good considering what you want to aim at is either a knight (effective range 48" to delete your BK's) or most tanks/vehicles that sit far back in the battlefield.

[Brother Worsey]

Following up on the plasma thing:

 

1. 1s cause a 1MW for us, everyone else gets the current rule as is.

2. Rerollable no of plasma shots. Rolling 1 on a d6 for the macro plasma incinerator on my Executioner means I'm gonna go for the HLD every time. Would buff plasma cannons nicely too.

 

Highlights our skill and natural affinity for plasma (which is a thing, isnt it? or am i just imagining it?)

Edited July 26, 2019 by Brother Worsey

[Angel of Solitude]

@Hellunder that "Scout and attack" stratagem is a very tidy one. It encourages DW/RW synergy, and also makes one of our signature units - DWK - far more reliable.

 

Regarding BK's, I agree with your assessment that their threat range is too short. 38" isn't really enough considering that you've probably deployed them somewhere in cover to protect them in the first turn. I think they suffer from not quite knowing what they should be. Are they an elite, fast moving shooting unit with a medium-heavy weapons that can take down high toughness targets from afar? Or are they an elite, fast moving assault unit that packs a punch in melee? My experience is that the Corvus hammer doesn't do as much damage in melee as you want it to.

[Hantheman]

Yeah the range of black knights is terrible and without the fly keyword is easily screened out. 24 inch would make a big difference. Not sure I'd take them over palsma inceptors though

[Hellunder]

Ok crazy idea, but what about making them rapid fire 2 (range 24")? There are two plasmaguns on them. According to the logic of bolt rifles: One gun = rapid fire 1 or Assault 2 w shorter range. They probably had to get more expensive in points though, but visually i think it would make sense since vanilla bikes are rapid fire 2.

[Angel of Solitude]

Yeah, there is some inconsistency here that is somewhat annoying. The models make it look as though they are twin-plasma guns - this would then make them a 24", Rapid Fire 2 profile just like the twin boltgun.

 

If you want to go down the assault weapon route, then Inceptors have an 18" Assault 2D3 profile.

 

An 18" Assault 2 profile just feels like a poor compromise. Even from a melee perspective, Inceptors have the opportunity to do mortal wounds; no such joy with the Corvus Hammers.

 

Admittedly, there's a cool 21 point per model difference between a Black Knight and an Inceptor, but what you gain in higher potential damage output, the ability to deep strike, and the ability to cause mortal wounds, you lose in stratagem and re-roll support.

 

Perhaps this is another 8.5 wishlist: Inceptors gain the RAVENWING key word...

[jbaeza94]

I do want ravenwing and deathwing primaris. Theyre inducted now, where do they go?

Id like rw inceptors and dw aggressors knights.

[Hantheman]

Yeah, there is some inconsistency here that is somewhat annoying. The models make it look as though they are twin-plasma guns - this would then make them a 24", Rapid Fire 2 profile just like the twin boltgun.

 

If you want to go down the assault weapon route, then Inceptors have an 18" Assault 2D3 profile.

 

An 18" Assault 2 profile just feels like a poor compromise. Even from a melee perspective, Inceptors have the opportunity to do mortal wounds; no such joy with the Corvus Hammers.

 

Admittedly, there's a cool 21 point per model difference between a Black Knight and an Inceptor, but what you gain in higher potential damage output, the ability to deep strike, and the ability to cause mortal wounds, you lose in stratagem and re-roll support.

 

Perhaps this is another 8.5 wishlist: Inceptors gain the RAVENWING key word...

 

For their current cost rapid fire 2 plasma would probably be balanced tbh.

[Guest MistaGav]

In case no one has mentioned it. I'd like to see us get access to the indomitus crusader Detachment for intercessors along with a new one for Deathwing specifically as well. Also add the Ravenwing specific Detachment for clarities sake too. I also think there should be a small CP bonus if an outrider or Vanguard detachment is entirely DW or RW to encourage builds in those forces.

[Shaneos]

Loving the discussion brothers.

Agree Lion'el would be neat.

Echoing the consensus I would love termies to get closer via deep strike if going near Ravenwing.

The idea behind rapid fire 2 BK's makes sense, there is an inconsistency here. BK's do have this kind of weird shooty/melee mix going, like standard terminators do, which if either shooty or melee is too strong they would quickly become OP.
I'm not sure how to resolve them, assault 4 18 inches?? OP?
Leave as is and make the Corvus Hammers slightly better? MW's on a 6 would be neat instead of extra damage.

I wouldn't mind the jink special rule not requiring having to have advanced or something, going second sucks as RWING. Or a stratagem to pop first turn before RWing unit is shot at to jink.

I wouldn't mind land speeders to be on the table more often again. Heavy weps being -1 to hit sucks makes you not want to move a speedy unit.
Give the landspeeders the same strafing run rule that the plane has?


 

[dice4thedicegod]

Perhaps the deathwing could get a similar stratagem to the custodes, where they can teleport a terminator unit near their standard bearer and they just have to be outside 3”, rather than 9”, making a charge very easy. (Of course our version would be deathwing coming in close to the Lion (or maybe just a dark angel warlord or Ravenwing unit, as a generic codex buff)

[Angel of Solitude]

Going with the lore, I’d suggest that the trigger unit would be a Ravenwing unit, and the arriving unit would be the Lion and his personal bodyguard. The bodyguard might be a unit of DWK, or it may even be something Primaris-related. Edited July 28, 2019 by Angel of Solitude

[PhilB]

Give RW units scout back imo; I miss flanking with my RW Attack Squadrons.

[Neuralshock]

Overall I like the ideas that I'm hearing but I wonder if we're overcooking the ravenwing stew here. I suggest we break it down to keep it simple.

 

Problem 1: Ravenwing rules should better reflect their fluff.

 

Problem 2: RWBK do far too little for their points costs and lack a defined role.

 

Problem 3: Ravenwing heavy weapons units and LSV suffer massively from heavy weapons penalties

 

Solution 1: Since the RW are supposed to be one of the foremost rapid attack companies in the imperium, on top of being astartes, detachments which all units share the "ravenwing" keyword replace grim resolve with "relentless pursuit" (or something to that effect) in which RW units ignore the penalties for advancing and shooting assault weapons. Additionally, all weapons besides grenades become assault weapons when this unit advances

 

Rw's own "chapter tactic", this distinguishes them from the rest of the wings and rewards building forces around the idea that the RW are semi independent secretive hunters pursuing an agenda separate from the main DA body. It's not perfect, because I turned Talonmasters into character shreading monsters with huntsman wl trait, but is that really a bad thing? Hah. Also leaves jink in it's current state.

 

Solution 2: reworked RWBK with the following, plasma talon is RF2 24", corvus hammer is +1 S -2 AP 1D and unmodified 6's to wound deal d3 MW in addition. Each BK has 3 attacks and hunt master with 4. Outflank (1/3) is a pregame cp strat to put 1-2 RW units in reserve to come in with the normal flanking restrictions.

 

There ya go, bang for your buck. This gives them the threat profile to reach out and touch units at 44 inches to be both a shooting threat and a melee threat, buffed with righteous repungnance and cause all the feel bads. "But that would be OP!" For a unit that costs just shy of 200 points for a 5 man squad you better believe they should bring the pain.

 

Solution 3: while the heavy weapons penalties were covered in solution 1 the LSV would do well to get changed to 4d3 shots with MWs to the model for unmodified ones on overcharge

 

 

What do you guys think about these changes? Too OP or does it make building a RW outrider detachment more appealing?

[Gederas]

Overall I like the ideas that I'm hearing but I wonder if we're overcooking the ravenwing stew here. I suggest we break it down to keep it simple.

 

Problem 1: Ravenwing rules should better reflect their fluff.

 

Problem 2: RWBK do far too little for their points costs and lack a defined role.

 

Problem 3: Ravenwing heavy weapons units and LSV suffer massively from heavy weapons penalties

 

Solution 1: Since the RW are supposed to be one of the foremost rapid attack companies in the imperium, on top of being astartes, detachments which all units share the "ravenwing" keyword replace grim resolve with "relentless pursuit" (or something to that effect) in which RW units ignore the penalties for advancing and shooting assault weapons. Additionally, all weapons besides grenades become assault weapons when this unit advances

 

Rw's own "chapter tactic", this distinguishes them from the rest of the wings and rewards building forces around the idea that the RW are semi independent secretive hunters pursuing an agenda separate from the main DA body. It's not perfect, because I turned Talonmasters into character shreading monsters with huntsman wl trait, but is that really a bad thing? Hah. Also leaves jink in it's current state.

 

Solution 2: reworked RWBK with the following, plasma talon is RF2 24", corvus hammer is +1 S -2 AP 1D and unmodified 6's to wound deal d3 MW in addition. Each BK has 3 attacks and hunt master with 4. Outflank (1/3) is a pregame cp strat to put 1-2 RW units in reserve to come in with the normal flanking restrictions.

 

There ya go, bang for your buck. This gives them the threat profile to reach out and touch units at 44 inches to be both a shooting threat and a melee threat, buffed with righteous repungnance and cause all the feel bads. "But that would be OP!" For a unit that costs just shy of 200 points for a 5 man squad you better believe they should bring the pain.

 

Solution 3: while the heavy weapons penalties were covered in solution 1 the LSV would do well to get changed to 4d3 shots with MWs to the model for unmodified ones on overcharge

 

 

What do you guys think about these changes? Too OP or does it make building a RW outrider detachment more appealing?

That'd be perfect, honestly. I like it