DA 8.5 Codex wishlisting

[Grimdark_Garage]

I would like, if we get doctrines, either an always double tapping plasma doctrine or a +1 to hit and wound for plasma doctrine.

 

Preferably the latter. Would give us a lot more threat. Inceptors, black knights, hellblasters would be seriously terrifying.

 

I doubt we'll get +1 to hit with plasma, it would be OP. Also, i suspect we'll get "Signal the Attack" strategem so would make this a little redundant.

 

I would be happy with always RF plasma wepaons!! Wouldnt mean much to your Bikes (whichi are alreday very scary) but would make those Hellblasters VERY good!

[Hantheman]

To make plasma competitive I think it needs a +1 to wound of some sort

[Grimdark_Garage]

To make plasma competitive I think it needs a +1 to wound of some sort

 

If we look at the supposed Salamanders leaks, its entirely possible we get +1 wound with plasma while a specific doctrine is active.

[Guest MistaGav]

I can see Azrael being redone first as he's the main grandmaster, he is a tiny model now and he's in metal. If any of our characters need a re-do then it's him clearly. My main hope is our characters get a nice power boost compared to what we've seen from the current leaks from the SM supplements.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Say we get successor supplements or even just a few in the codex, who would we get?

 

I'd have Consecrators, Angels of Absolution and Blades of Vengeance (the first all Primaris successor).

[jaxom]

I wouldn’t mind a primaris version of any of the characters, but Azrael and Ezekiel are the oldest of our sculpts still being used, so they both really need some love. Even if we only get a random Master Primaris character, at the least they can update those two venerable veterans as regular marines.

 

I, for one, welcome our new Cawl Monstrosity Overlords (so long as our apothecaries and techmarines have cracked the implementation methods and kicked the ‘loaned’ priests of mars out of the rock)

Based off today's Sal and IF update, I'd go with we're getting a new Primaris character and no new models for the old ones. As an aside, with Eldar aspect warriors and possibly phoenix lords getting resculpts it may mean there is hope for a few years down the line.

 

 

I would like, if we get doctrines, either an always double tapping plasma doctrine or a +1 to hit and wound for plasma doctrine.

 

Preferably the latter. Would give us a lot more threat. Inceptors, black knights, hellblasters would be seriously terrifying.

 

I doubt we'll get +1 to hit with plasma, it would be OP. Also, i suspect we'll get "Signal the Attack" strategem so would make this a little redundant.

 

I would be happy with always RF plasma wepaons!! Wouldnt mean much to your Bikes (whichi are alreday very scary) but would make those Hellblasters VERY good!

 

 

To make plasma competitive I think it needs a +1 to wound of some sort

 

Stratagems are recognizable, but not always an option (CP runs out, Vect'ed, etc); with Combat Doctrine and the power-up, it's a case of, "Does this reflect how the Dark Angels wage war all the time, no matter what?" I remember how divisive the focus on plasma was during this community's massive conversation about the transition from a supplement to a full codex. I Consider this is a chance to have a rules answer to the question "Who are the Dark Angels when they're not hunting Fallen?" In that light, I don't feel "they're the plasma people" is as good an answer even if it's the most straightforward answer.

 

Stuff I typed regarding the competitiveness of plasma, but figured wasn't as relevant (it felt like a waste to just delete it):

I think the effect of Weapons of the Dark Age doesn't match its description ("mastering the containment of plasma energies," but you can still blow up because the plasma couldn't be contained ) and if there were a stratagem (or aura-providing relic) which let a plasma weapon fire without the threat of blowing up it would go a long way. Super charged normal plasma is competitive, but at the moment there are just a few too many hoops to jump through to make it safer and Dark Angels already have point problems for other units so having to shoe-horn in the hoops is just blech. It wouldn't be so bad if we had the point efficiency to do both.

 

Part of it is plasmarines are in a weird place in 8th edition. Plasma is an okay MEQ killer and an okay light vehicle wounder (killer if in quantity) and costs for both. This isn't too bad for the armies that don't have weapons costed against a Primaris profile, but for us, where our non-Primaris non-troop options are expensive... ouch. It's the Repulsor problem: fluff makes perfect sense and totally makes sense to have a floating gun island transport, but players, and not a Primarch, are the ones who have to worry about points to fit it in an army. Similarly a 10 man squad of Hellblasters overcharging their their Heavy Plasma Incinerators sounds great but we're paying more points for something that does slightly less damage than a near equivalent number of Eliminators with las-fusils.

 

]HB w/HPI: 35 pts, Primaris stats, Heavy 1 36" Str 8 AP -4 1D | OC Str 9 AP -4 2D Overheats

Eli w/LF: 36 pts. Primaris stats w/Camocloak, Heavy 1 24" Str 8 AP -3 3D

Eli w/BSR: 24 pts Primaris stats w/Camocloak, Execution Rds Heavy 1 36" Str 5 AP -2 D3D

 

anti-vehicle: 9 vs 10 wounds against T7 3+ and 6 vs 6 against T8 3+/5++

 

Say we get successor supplements or even just a few in the codex, who would we get?

 

I'd have Consecrators, Angels of Absolution and Blades of Vengeance (the first all Primaris successor).

 

A few in the Codex would make sense considering how big it could be. The addition of all the new units means there's little reason not to hope for 192 pages like the new SM book (compared to 144 currently). Angels of Vengeance and their Dreadwing tantalize some interesting areas of divergence from the parent Chapter considering the Heresy-era rivalry between the two different wings. The Angels of Absolution don't have the same guilt-complex as the rest of the Unforgiven so I'd definitely include them too. I could see a few unique warlord traits and relics for each included successor.

[jbaeza94]

its funny you say wed get a new character, because we were just told about the new rubiconed 5th company master

[Grimdark_Garage]

its funny you say wed get a new character, because we were just told about the new rubiconed 5th company master

 

Oh yeah! Duh ha

My money is 5th Company Master model

Even more, maybe a Phobos Master Character 5th Company Master model to accompany your new Ravenwing Phobos Units (dont shoot me!!)

[Deadman Wade]

+1 to-hit or to-wound can be given by chaplains (assuming DA gets the same prayers), so I doubt any stratagems or special rules will duplicate it for plasma weapons.

I'm not a fan of special characters, cause some of them are auto-include, and we already have Belial for Deathwing, Sammael for Ravenwing and Azrael for battle company units, so I don't want another named character. Especially not gravis armor (Tor Garadon looks quite bad even for primaris).

We have enough HQs and units, actually, more than vanilla marine chapters, so there's no need for new ones, but our rules and stratagems need adjusting.

[Grimdark_Garage]

+1 to-hit or to-wound can be given by chaplains (assuming DA gets the same prayers), so I doubt any stratagems or special rules will duplicate it for plasma weapons.

I'm not a fan of special characters, cause some of them are auto-include, and we already have Belial for Deathwing, Sammael for Ravenwing and Azrael for battle company units, so I don't want another named character. Especially not gravis armor (Tor Garadon looks quite bad even for primaris).

We have enough HQs and units, actually, more than vanilla marine chapters, so there's no need for new ones, but our rules and stratagems need adjusting.

 

I hope we get different Litanies than our Vanilla brothers. It could be we get futher plasma buffs through these Litanies. Afterall, no other chapter is more synonymnous for Chaplains than the DA.

 

We do have anumber of Characters but we also know taht these charcters are being phased out. From the IF and Sally reveals, it could very well be that we get a new charcter who makes the odler models obselete. Afterall, GW want boards full of new miniatures to entice new hobbyists, not minis 20+ years old.

 

Im suprised to see you you say Tor Garadon looks anything but amazing. For me, its a Gravis model i can finally get behind and gives me faith for the future of Gravis characters. (honestly have disliked every other Gravis model!)

 

Rules and strats will come. Whether it be with Codex V2 or Psychic Awaking book, whichever comes first.

[Deadman Wade]

Vanilla litanies are all solid, even though I only use Catachism of Fire. I wouldn't mind DA specific litanies, but I'm ok with us getting vanilla ones.

I'd rather have new generic HQs than named ones, but it's just my preference for making my Masters and Captains by kitbashing. Ravenwing talonmaster was a great idea IMO, and I really want to see something like that, doesn't matter if it's marines or primaris.

But overall, I'm waiting for rules, not new models. With new phobos stuff we'll have so much units that it's gonna be impossible to try it all without selling my kidney)

 

I don't like Tor's head, his belt across the chest, oversized fist, leg positioning and grav gun as a weapon. He had relic bolt pistol, and now it's gone. His auspex (or whatever it is on his left arm) looks funny when you realise that he must press thise small buttons with his power fist :D

And I'm also an IF player.

If our HQs get primarised, I hope it will be regular intercessor armor or something new, just not gravis.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Deadman Wade

[Guest Metaliptica]

Since it’s a kind of a wish listing, here is what I would like to see in our next codex. I know that all of these changes seem OP but I think it represents the direction I would like our next codex to take. I am not a competitive player so there will probably be some cheese I didn’t think of in these ideas.

First would be a small rework of our chapter tactic.
Staying static is a big limitation factor for our army, and I feel the Trade-off isn’t worth it at this point. I would like something along the line of
«Grim Resolve: you can reroll hit OR wound rolls of one as long as it did not move in its prior movement phase. In addition, this unit can never lose more than one model as the result of any single failed morale test »
As it stands, we get a lot of overlapping rerolls buff and this change makes sure that both Captains and Lieutenants have a place in our gunline.
Also, it would be fun to have our grim resolve improve our melee performance as well since we are supposed to descend from knights and be able to use swords… (yeah I like how the dark angels used to be).
 

 

Then, A rework for our Deathwing units. Terminators are kind of underwhelming this edition, so a small help could go a long way:
«Inner Circle: This unit automatically passes Morale tests and always count as stationary for the purpose of the Grim Resolve Special rule. In addition, you can re-roll failed hit rolls in the fight phase for attacks by this unit that target a Heretic Astartes unit. »

Did you expect less from or elite 1st company? we are supposed to have THE terminator company after all.

 

 

It was mentioned in the White Dwarf article that Dark Angels followed the codex and its doctrine so I don’t think we will diverge too much from them. BUT I think it would be a good opportunity to bring back the old standards as some kind of doctrines +1 rules where you choose one before the beginning of the game and it improves one of your doctrines :
« Devastation Protocol : Whilst the Devastator doctrine is active, an UNFORGIVEN unit that remained stationary in its previous movement phase count any natural hit roll of 6 as 2 hits instead of 1 during the shooting phase. »
«Spirit of Fortitude: Whilst the Tactical doctrine is active, whenever an UNFORGIVEN loses a wound, roll a dice. On a 6+, that wound is not lost. In addition, you can add 1 to the roll if it did move toward an enemy unit during its previous movement phase. »
« Hymn of Retribution: Whilst the Assault doctrine is active, whenever an UNFORGIVEN unit is attacking with a melee weapon within 6’’ of an enemy CHARACTER, add 1 to the damage characteristic of that weapon for that attack »

Obviously, these rules could be the chance to bring back our old banners which would give all units within 6’’ the benefit of one of these bonuses (Devastation banner gives Devastation protocol etc …)

 

 

Regarding stratagems, I think that if they bring us up to date with the most recent generic  SM stratagems (give us « transhuman physiology » for example ), as well as making the WD mission specific stratagems regular ones, we could be in a good spot.
That said, I wouldn’t mind a stratagem allowing us to make aggressors members of the inner circle (since we have them lore wise now), a no overwatch strats whenever a Ravenwing unit is within 12’’ of the enemy unit being charged, or a rework of the « hunt the fallen » stratagem so I don’t pay a CP to give my opponent an extra attack on his character.
Oh and please change the name « weapons of the dark age » to « plasma mastery »… As it stands, it feels weird to use this on hellblasters.

 

 

Speaking of hellblasters: am I the only one that feels like they should change the assault and heavy variant the same way they treated stalker and auto bolt riffle? one extra shot for the assault variant and one extra damage for the heavy variant. (Obviously, this change should apply to all chapters from all codexes).
 

 

Regarding characters, Azrael seems like a prime candidate to cross the rubicon. His sculpt is quite old and lore wise, he does seem to support primaris introduction into the ranks of the DA so him becoming one is plausible. Rule wise, I don’t feel he should change much. Make his helm work on all UNFORGIVEN units within 6’’ and maybe a small change on the Lion’s wrath but nothing too fancy.

 

For our psychic phase: in addition to our Interromancy and Obscuration discipline, it would be nice to have also access to Divination. Since all chapters now have access to 3 disciplines, I want to dream as well. With powers such as ignore cover, Full BS overwatch (…).


Finally: The Lion (yes: I know!). Make him a Character/Monster hunter who can buff his army with redeployment abilities of some kind and maybe some CP generation bonus.

If you read it all and made it this far... Well you truly have the tenacity of a true son of the Lion.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Metaliptica

[Varizel]

Make Nephilim an interceptor on top of having strafing run. It is funny that the current Nephilim was hobbled to do what it was noted to do in fluffs (destroying orks fighter planes, eldar skimmers).

 

Bring back the old Ravenwing Attack Squadron composition (6 bikes, Attack bike, and Land Speeder). They are all T5 now and move about the same (Barring LS flying), no reason they can't be joined into one unit. Also gives the capabilities of combat squadding to remove the Attack bike & Land speeder as their own seperate unit. Also bring the options of using combi weapons to the Ravenwing bike sarge (yes they  are in index, but it will be nice if they actually put it on codex).

 

Strategem if you deepstrike termie near a ravenwing, DW can ignore cover save on that shooting phase? that would be nice too :D.

 

My 2 cents.

[Neuralshock]

Had a thought in the shower for a new strat

 

2 CP: Smite Mode

Fight Phase

 

Maces of Absolution add 2 to their damage characteristic and one to the wound roll. (Can only be used once per game)

 

for when you reallyyyy want that one thing gone

[Berzul]

Would much rather it be 1cp and give a +1 to wound, that you can use all you want. But I like the concept!!

[Master Sheol]

If DA Will adopt the doctrines like codex SM chapters i can see the there wings of the DA getting a bonus into a different doctrine

Like RW get a bonus when assault doctrine is active DW get a bonus while tactical doctrine is active and Greenwing get a bonus while devastator doctrine is active

So eventual DW Agressors will be not Just bone painted versions of the battle companies ones but they should have Better profile and rules and a different use as they get a different bonus in a different doctrine compared to the GW ones

[Berzul]

If it goes that way, and it might, I think they would have the same profile. And, thw bonus on thw correct doctrine would be the only thing setting them appart from regular agressors.

 

In any case, I think it would make more sense for the DW to benefit from the assault doctrine, and the RW to benefit from the tactical doctrine.

 

After all, for all their ability, RW is still not our best hand to hand force.

 

Their advantage is that, unlike the DW, they can actually get into combat. But, should a DW buff to the assault doctrine improve their charging capabilities, that would fix said imbalance.

[Berzul]

So, lets review:

 

Devastator Doctrine gives AP-1 to Heavy Weapons and Grenades

Tactical Doctrine gives AP-1 to Rapid Fire and Assault Weapons

Assault Doctrine gives AP-1 to Pistol and Close Combat Weapons

 

The principle would be that Greenwing benefit more from the Devastator Doctrine, the Ravenwing benefit more from the Tactical Doctrine, and the Deathwing benefit more from the Assault Doctrine.

 

Maybe, it could look like this:

 

GRIM RESOLVE. (Applies to any unit in the codex) A unit with this special rule can rerroll 1s when making a ranged attack, as long as the unit did not move in the previous movement phase. While the Devastator Doctrine is active, the unit can rerroll 1s to both hit rolls and wound rolls, as long as the unit did not move in the previous movement phase.

 

<NAME PENDING>. (Applies to units with the Ravenwing Keyword) A unit with this special rule, as long as the Tactical Doctrine is active, can advance and shoot assault weapons without the normal penalty, and can move and fire heavy weapons without the normal penalty.

 

DEATHWING ASSAULT. (Applies to units with the Deathwing Keyword) A unit with this special rule, as long as the Assault Doctrine is active, gains +1" to all advance and charge rolls, and Storm Bolters count their profile as being Pistol 2 instead of Rapid Fire 2.

[Neuralshock]

It's a solid idea Berzul, but it's ground we've explored before. I propose a different direction.

 

Rather than each doctrine having a "wing" boost, I think it would be more interesting if each wing had their separate doctrine track, but that they synergize with each other. This would represent the fact that while part of the same army, ravenwing and deathwing pursue different objectives.

 

Ravenwing: In a detachment in which all units share the keyword RAVENWING keyword and in addition to the normal doctrine benefits, units in the devastator doctrine suffer no penalties for advancing and firing assault weapons. Heavy and rapid fire weapons are treated as assault weapons when advanced.

 

In the tactical doctrine, ravenwing units gain +1 BS targeting units within 12" and reroll 1's to hit.

 

In the assault doctrine, ravenwing units add one to charge rolls for friendly units within 6" and can pile in and consolidate 6" in any direction

 

 

I'll come back with deathwing stuff in a minute

[HandsWithLegs]

I just want ravenwing teleport homers and DWK smite mode back. With the power level of the new marine book I don't think either of those are unreasonable at all!

[Neuralshock]

For deathwing: in a detachment in which all units share the deathwing keyword... Yada yada.

 

Never ending hail of destruction (my favorite named weapon in DoW2) in the devastator doctrine, deathwing units can shoot twice in the shooting phase, units from this detachment count as not having been moved.

 

Tactical: in the tactical doctine, DW add 1 to charge rolls and gain +1 to wound characters

 

Sweeping advance: in the assault doctrine, DW units can pile in and consolidate 6 inches in toward any character and add one to their weapon damage.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Neuralshock

[G8Keeper]

So some huge salt required here and be advised it's just a theory of mine (and a few others I've seen).

 

Those of you that know Valrak will know he's got one mega obsession, Primarchs and specifically when/who the next one will be. Quire a while ago now he was told from somebody, I forget who, may have been the French source I again keep forgetting the name of that he would get his wish or something along those lines in psychic awakening, I believe towards the end.

 

Now, we currently know that BA and Wolves are going to be involved in the earlier books and that every other first Founding chapter has or will have a supplement imminently. The only first Founding chapter left is DA with no announcements or rumours of being included in psychic awakening or getting a supplement, yet. Also supporting a later release is the fact we have just gotten a white dwarf index astartes article, possibly meant to tide us over.

 

What does it all mean G8? Well, I put it to you fellow unforgiven, that we will see the Lion finally awaken and emerge from the catacombs of the Rock to lead the unforgiven once again, at the end of psychic awakening.

[jbaeza94]

i too agree with you g8keeper. i saw the post he made saying something along the lines of "his obseesion was finally confirmed". Lion El Johnson is the most logical primarch at the moment too 

[Bryan Blaire]

What was said to Valrak/by Valrak was about his "obsession may be fulfilled/satisfied" - I wouldn't read more into it than a maybe at this point. You will only end up disappointed.

[Berzul]

Ive seen more theories about Fulgrim than the Lion, but it would be cool.