Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

[Guest Triszin]

With the new Dex arrival appears to be emminent, what do you expect to be in it, what do you think they need.


New rule

"Angels of death"

Appears to relaxed atsknf.


I expect it to help transition the Marines into the elite medium/low model count armies, specially mono. Builds

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

No idea what it'll be, but having a universal Angels of Death rule means we'll probably lose the old Angel of Death warlord trait, which is good. It's awful.

[Guest Triszin]

What was the trait out of curiosity

[MARK0SIAN]

There’s a lot of speculation that it will be bolter discipline and ATSKNF rolled into one but I think that would be quite wordy.

 

I don’t know what it will be but it needs to be a substantial new bonus to elevate marines into an elite army. Personally, I think that might be setting expectations a bit too high. I would expect it to be something along the lines of Death to the false Emperor but reversed.

[Guest Triszin]

There’s a lot of speculation that it will be bolter discipline and ATSKNF rolled into one but I think that would be quite wordy.

 

I don’t know what it will be but it needs to be a substantial new bonus to elevate marines into an elite army. Personally, I think that might be setting expectations a bit too high. I would expect it to be something along the lines of Death to the false Emperor but reversed.

Could be defenders of humanity and atsknf rolled into one. Which just condenses rules they have

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

The Angel of Death warlord trait in the current book is a -1 leadership aura to enemy units. You can stack some stuff with it to maybe gimmick some fleeing models, but you never would when your other options are a 6+ FNP and +1 wound, a fearless aura, +1 attack on the charge, an extra AP aura, etc. It's a stinker for sure.

[Sete]

My biggest question is:

Primaris only?

[Guest Triszin]

My biggest question is:

Primaris only?

New stuff, yeah. My guess.

 

Oldies will still be in it

[MARK0SIAN]

Yeah, unless there’s a lot more units they’re releasing soon then there isn’t enough Primaris stuff for an independent codex.

 

A rule like Angels of death would surely have to apply to all marines, the name is too associated with old marines to be Primaris specific.

[Panzer]

Yeah, unless there’s a lot more units they’re releasing soon then there isn’t enough Primaris stuff for an independent codex.

 

There is though.

Primaris: 21 units total

HQ: 8 units (not counting the Plasma Pistol/Powerfist Captain extra)

Elite: 5 units (+1 for Ultramarines)

Troops: 2 units

Fast Attack: 2 units

Heavy Support: 3 units

Flyer: 0 units

Dedicated Transport: 1 unit

 

And we've already seen a leaked picture of another HQ, a transport, a Dreadnought-like walker and a not yet identified infantry unit (plus Lasfusils for the Eliminators).

 

That's easily enough for a separate Codex. Not as big as vanilla Marine players are used to sure, but not everyone has such a thick Codex. Just compare it to Custodes or Grey Knights for example.

 

Custodes: 12 units total

HQ: 4 units

Elite: 5 units

Troops: 1 unit

Fast Attack: 1 unit

Heavy Support: 1 unit

 

Grey Knights: 35 units total

HQ: 11 units (4 of those being named characters)

Elite: 9 units (Servitors included)

Troops: 2 units

Fast Attack: 1 unit

Heavy Support: 6 units (4 of those being Landraider variants)

Flyer: 3 units

Dedicated Transport: 3 units

 

 

A rule like Angels of death would surely have to apply to all marines, the name is too associated with old marines to be Primaris specific.

 

You'd think so, but then again there's no reason why ATSKNF shouldn't apply to Chaos Marines either. If anything they should be even more fearless.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

Yeah, unless there’s a lot more units they’re releasing soon then there isn’t enough Primaris stuff for an independent codex.

There is though.

Primaris: 21 units total

HQ: 8 units (not counting the Plasma Pistol/Powerfist Captain extra)

Elite: 5 units (+1 for Ultramarines)

Troops: 2 units

Fast Attack: 2 units

Heavy Support: 3 units

Flyer: 0 units

Dedicated Transport: 1 unit

 

And we've already seen a leaked picture of another HQ, a transport, a Dreadnought-like walker and a not yet identified infantry unit (plus Lasfusils for the Eliminators).

 

That's easily enough for a separate Codex. Not as big as vanilla Marine players are used to sure, but not everyone has such a thick Codex. Just compare it to Custodes or Grey Knights for example.

 

Custodes: 12 units total

HQ: 4 units

Elite: 5 units

Troops: 1 unit

Fast Attack: 1 unit

Heavy Support: 1 unit

 

Grey Knights: 35 units total

HQ: 11 units (4 of those being named characters)

Elite: 9 units (Servitors included)

Troops: 2 units

Fast Attack: 1 unit

Heavy Support: 6 units (4 of those being Landraider variants)

Flyer: 3 units

Dedicated Transport: 3 units

 

A rule like Angels of death would surely have to apply to all marines, the name is too associated with old marines to be Primaris specific.

You'd think so, but then again there's no reason why ATSKNF shouldn't apply to Chaos Marines either. If anything they should be even more fearless.

You’re right about chaos, but then they loyalists hate the traitors as much as they’re hated in return so by that logic the loyalists should also get a death to the false emperor equivalent. There’s a big difference though in two different factions not sharing the same ability and two units within the same faction (if they keep them in the same codex) not sharing it.

 

As for a separate codexes, there are probably enough Primaris units for one but there is not enough Primaris variety for one. Custodes and Grey knights are very specific in their role and playstyle. Marines are meant to be more generalist and (for me at least) Primaris don’t really have the capability to play in different styles/builds to really justify their own codex.

[Sete]

This is going to be one dummy thick codex if its bringing everything.

[TheTrans]

I honestly think Custodes killed any ability for the marines to be a strong, elite codex. 

[redmapa]

I honestly think Custodes killed any ability for the marines to be a strong, elite codex. 

 

I dont think so, Blood Angels and Deathwatch are proof that marines can be a good and strong codex but they just need more offensive output which essentially turns them into these glass cannons armies just as BA and DW.

[The Unseen]

 

 

I honestly think Custodes killed any ability for the marines to be a strong, elite codex.

I dont think so, Blood Angels and Deathwatch are proof that marines can be a good and strong codex but they just need more offensive output which essentially turns them into these glass cannons armies just as BA and DW.

Your hilarious if you think BA are a strong codex. They're upper mid-tier if you min-max to the absolute limit, and still get smashed hard by any of the better armies.

 

And deathwatch would probably be good if they didn't have gaping holes in their unit selections, and they could use bolter discipline with SIA.

 

And I for one hate how the *best* though still not good, marine lists are all either a gunline castling up around reroll auras, or so glass cannon a stiff breeze can kill most of the army, and all the cannon is in a handful of characters.

 

They don't play like anything close to resembling their fluff.

 

I'd agree that Custodes being indtroduced massively limits what GW will be willing to do for Astartes.

Can't have them out shining the golden banana boys on an individual level, which means they're stuck with the stats they have now.

 

I'd be interested if they make ATSKNF actually matter, (I think its saved maybe 2 lone sergeants the entire 2 year run or 8th for me) and change bolter discipline to *an additional shot if you didn't move OR are inside half range* with bolt weapons. (Not both at the same time, so either 3 shots at half range instead or 2, or 2 at range if you don't move)

 

To support both imperial fist style *man the walls and shoot them down* play and also the aggressive close range shock troops that murder things up close.

 

Ohh, and give Astartes chainswords a damn -1 AP, and let characters take mastercrafted power weapons so the right melee weapon for characters isnt just literally *always a thunder hammer.*

It still will be most of the time, but non-captains would consider them for budget options if they don't have a reroll aura.

[Panzer]

 

Ohh, and give Astartes chainswords a damn -1 AP, and let characters take mastercrafted power weapons so the right melee weapon for characters isnt just literally *always a thunder hammer.*

It still will be most of the time, but non-captains would consider them for budget options if they don't have a reroll aura.

 

 

The Gravis Captain has a Powerfist and a MC Powersword but unfortunately there's basically never a reason to use the MC Powersword. If there was the option for a Thunderhammer it would be even more clear cut. MC usually only makes the weapon do multi-damage but that's unfortunately not enough compared to weapons that do multi-damage AND have high strength.

[Sete]

Since IH are getting a new primaris dude, I hope that a few more chapters get one aswell.

Seriously, BT need a Primaris EC.

[Blindhamster]

and chainswords brother, don't forget the chainswords.

[Sete]

True! I secretly hope that the new unit is a veteran with free choice of equipment, just like the HH veteran tac squad.

[Lemondish]

Apoc data sheet referred to the combat blades on Reivers as "Reiver blades", so I appreciate that carries over into the new codex with a slight adjustment to stats.

[Sete]

Since Chainswords remain the same, I could see that happening. That way they would not overlap in function.

[Guest Triszin]

I'm half expecting a lot of changes, really curious to see them.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment, brother.

[Panzer]

I'm actually trying hard to not expect too much. It can go both ways, really. Either it'll be a minor thing like the CSM one or a major thing with a Primaris Codex or anything inbetween.

[Captain Idaho]

I mentioned it before, but because it's relevant:

 

+1 attack when attacking units in close combat consisting of models with a single wound that DO NOT have the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes Keywords. 

 

Ignore the first point of AP on any weapon that attacks models with the Angels of Death special rule.

 

This would make Marines the shock force against lessor specimens they always should be without breaking them against Tyranid Warriors and the like. Of course mixed units like Ork Nobz leading boyz might need clarification to count the basic troop type etc, but it works.

 

The other idea I had was:

 

Astartes scale weapons:

 

- Space Marines Bolters of all types receive +1S when in half range.

 

- Space Marines Chainsword receive +1S in addition to an extra attack.

 

All this combined would make even Tactical Marines and Assault Marines worthwhile against many foes - Assault Marines and Crusaders would get 3 attacks per model at S5 against 1 wound non-Astartes models.