Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

[Ishagu]

Yeah, I think if the Litanies are like those in the Chaos book we'll have plenty to be happy about.

[Panzer]

As a dedicated DIYer the ability to build your Chapter's rules like in the olden days is exciting, but the caveat is of course that there needs to be some measure of balance. I'm feeling optimistic given what we've seen so far, but we shall see.

 

I don't think this will be a problem.

Unless you can tie a DIY successor chapter to one of the default chapters in some way it's likely they won't have access to all the default chapter specific traits, stratagems, relics, named characters, unique units (Victrix Guard mainly at the moment but potentially more in the future) or specialist detachments. That would be a HUGE disadvantage just for being able to pick your chapter tactics.

If anything I feel like DIY chapters will be on the lower end of the power scale once all the supplements are out.

[WarriorFish]

Balance works both ways ;) I've been playing my DIY as IH for ages now, and like the IH anyway so along with the suitability of the tactic it'd take a lot to budge me :P

[Sete]

I like the fusiliade and prefered enemy for a Dorn sucessor.

 

Fusiliade gives that IF sucessor vibe and preferred enemy is awesome vs my friend nids and genestealer cults.

 

I hope we can have a generic chapter master option.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I wonder if these apply to non-codex compliant successors. Do you get their units AND to make your own chapter tactics? They have dark angel successors on their list on the site

I don't think they will get both, but GW is really sending mixed messages for the other marine books (one day we can take everything the next its a faq).

[No Foes Remain]

I hope we get the chapter master unit back, it seemed pointless having the upgrade as a stratagem which no-one seemed to take.

 

I also read the article wrong last night (the rum may have had something to do with it) and I thought you could only pick one of the 19 tactics but its two which makes for almost 361 combinations (is my math right? 19x19 right?) which is pretty bloody cool and sort of reminiscent of the 4th ed successor rules.

[Claws and Effect]

I hope we get the chapter master unit back, it seemed pointless having the upgrade as a stratagem which no-one seemed to take.

It probably would have been used more if it didn't cost 3CP

[Hantheman]

 

I wonder if these apply to non-codex compliant successors. Do you get their units AND to make your own chapter tactics? They have dark angel successors on their list on the site

I don't think they will get both, but GW is really sending mixed messages for the other marine books (one day we can take everything the next its a faq).

Yeah. GWs communication between context space marines has always been awful

[Brother Casman]

I hope we get the chapter master unit back, it seemed pointless having the upgrade as a stratagem which no-one seemed to take.

 

I also read the article wrong last night (the rum may have had something to do with it) and I thought you could only pick one of the 19 tactics but its two which makes for almost 361 combinations (is my math right? 19x19 right?) which is pretty bloody cool and sort of reminiscent of the 4th ed successor rules.

I would assume that you can't pick the same trait twice, so it'd be 19*18 or 342 combos.

[No Foes Remain]

 

I hope we get the chapter master unit back, it seemed pointless having the upgrade as a stratagem which no-one seemed to take.

It probably would have been used more if it didn't cost 3CP

 

3CP? Damn I thought it was two, and all it doesn't really do much from the looks of it. (Not an expert, last played in 5th ed)

 

 

I hope we get the chapter master unit back, it seemed pointless having the upgrade as a stratagem which no-one seemed to take.

 

I also read the article wrong last night (the rum may have had something to do with it) and I thought you could only pick one of the 19 tactics but its two which makes for almost 361 combinations (is my math right? 19x19 right?) which is pretty bloody cool and sort of reminiscent of the 4th ed successor rules.

I would assume that you can't pick the same trait twice, so it'd be 19*18 or 342 combos.

 

 

Yep that figures, I am usually not great at math but still thats a lot of combos though I am willing to bet that people will find 'awesome' ones that will always be taken and 'usless' ones that only fluffy players will take.

[MajorNese]

 

 

I hope we get the chapter master unit back, it seemed pointless having the upgrade as a stratagem which no-one seemed to take.

It probably would have been used more if it didn't cost 3CP

 

3CP? Damn I thought it was two, and all it doesn't really do much from the looks of it. (Not an expert, last played in 5th ed)

Since rerolls happen before modifiers, it just means that in most cases, you can also reroll hit rolls of 2 in addition to 1. -1 or more to hit doesn't change what you can reroll, since when you do rerolls, the modifier not yet applies and it is not considered a failed hit roll at that point.

 

You'll get more mileage out of it when BS is lowered (damaged vehicles) instead of the roll modified, but for base BS3+ units it is not a groundbreaking difference. It's good (especially with enough nearby units to buff), no question about it, but quite pricey. Having the option of a CM entry (or buyable upgrade like last edition) would be nice, but I doubt it at the moment.

[Ficinus]

There will be fewer combos since at least one doesn't allow a second trait to be taken. So, it would be 18*17, 306, combinations plus the one unique trait meaning 307 options.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

 

 

I hope we get the chapter master unit back, it seemed pointless having the upgrade as a stratagem which no-one seemed to take.

It probably would have been used more if it didn't cost 3CP

3CP? Damn I thought it was two, and all it doesn't really do much from the looks of it. (Not an expert, last played in 5th ed)

Since rerolls happen before modifiers, it just means that in most cases, you can also reroll hit rolls of 2 in addition to 1. -1 or more to hit doesn't change what you can reroll, since when you do rerolls, the modifier not yet applies and it is not considered a failed hit roll at that point.

 

You'll get more mileage out of it when BS is lowered (damaged vehicles) instead of the roll modified, but for base BS3+ units it is not a groundbreaking difference. It's good (especially with enough nearby units to buff), no question about it, but quite pricey. Having the option of a CM entry (or buyable upgrade like last edition) would be nice, but I doubt it at the moment.

And it benefits units quite a lot in overwatch.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

I hope we get the chapter master unit back, it seemed pointless having the upgrade as a stratagem which no-one seemed to take.

It probably would have been used more if it didn't cost 3CP

Worth it every time I used it.

[Irbis]

New rule

 

"Angels of death"

 

Appears to relaxed atsknf.

 

So, this bit was never explained I take?

 

I also read the article wrong last night (the rum may have had something to do with it) and I thought you could only pick one of the 19 tactics but its two which makes for almost 361 combinations (is my math right? 19x19 right?) which is pretty bloody cool and sort of reminiscent of the 4th ed successor rules.

 

There will be fewer combos since at least one doesn't allow a second trait to be taken. So, it would be 18*17, 306, combinations plus the one unique trait meaning 307 options.

 

It's wrong. It's 153, because the 19th trait is redundant and it doesn't matter in which order you will take 2 out of remaining 18. Combination, not permutation.

[Brother Casman]

Angels of Death looks to be a combination of And They Shall Know No Fear, Bolter Discipline, and Shock Assault, based on the tidbits we've seen so far.

 

And good catch on the difference between combinations and permutations, I always forget which is which. Though I have to wonder if the official traits for folks like the Ultramarines are encapsulated in the set of 153 combos or not.

[Irbis]

And good catch on the difference between combinations and permutations, I always forget which is which. Though I have to wonder if the official traits for folks like the Ultramarines are encapsulated in the set of 153 combos or not.

 

Most likely a lot of half-traits of the official chapters will be missing because we have seen a lot of new stuff in the 18 half-traits we can pick, so something must be dropped off the table to make room. Doubly so because the 19th trait letting you copy official chapter would be completely pointless if you could just pick these...

[CaptainFrederickson]

These chapter customization rules have got me more excited about Space Marines than any 8th edition release so far!

[Chapter Master Valrak]

The Sons of Dorn are going to be top tier with Marines, this pleases me.

[War Angel]

 

New rule

"Angels of death"

Appears to relaxed atsknf.

 

 

So, this bit was never explained I take?

 

I also read the article wrong last night (the rum may have had something to do with it) and I thought you could only pick one of the 19 tactics but its two which makes for almost 361 combinations (is my math right? 19x19 right?) which is pretty bloody cool and sort of reminiscent of the 4th ed successor rules.

 

 

There will be fewer combos since at least one doesn't allow a second trait to be taken. So, it would be 18*17, 306, combinations plus the one unique trait meaning 307 options.

 

 

It's wrong. It's 153, because the 19th trait is redundant and it doesn't matter in which order you will take 2 out of remaining 18. Combination, not permutation.

How do you do the math for this?

[Captain Idaho]

The Sons of Dorn are going to be top tier with Marines, this pleases me.

I think the same - Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists will have the best Bolters in the business and from suggested leaks that could mean more with the Doctrines rules.

[Irbis]

How do you do the math for this?

 

In short, this: https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/discretemathematics/combinations.php

Vs this: https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/discretemathematics/permutations.php

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

 

 

I hope we get the chapter master unit back, it seemed pointless having the upgrade as a stratagem which no-one seemed to take.

It probably would have been used more if it didn't cost 3CP

3CP? Damn I thought it was two, and all it doesn't really do much from the looks of it. (Not an expert, last played in 5th ed)

Since rerolls happen before modifiers, it just means that in most cases, you can also reroll hit rolls of 2 in addition to 1. -1 or more to hit doesn't change what you can reroll, since when you do rerolls, the modifier not yet applies and it is not considered a failed hit roll at that point.

 

You'll get more mileage out of it when BS is lowered (damaged vehicles) instead of the roll modified, but for base BS3+ units it is not a groundbreaking difference. It's good (especially with enough nearby units to buff), no question about it, but quite pricey. Having the option of a CM entry (or buyable upgrade like last edition) would be nice, but I doubt it at the moment.

-1 to hit does change what you can reroll because that 2 is considered to be a success.

[MajorNese]

 

-1 to hit does change what you can reroll because that 2 is considered to be a success.

On BS2+, yes, a 2 is considered a success. But modifiers never change what you can reroll, because (except for Cawl's aura) you can only reroll failed hit rolls, and modifiers only make (usually successful) rolls fail after the reroll step is done.

 

As most marine units are BS3+, you can reroll 1 and 2 (failed at that usual BS), but not 3 (which is failed after taking into account the -1). Which is why I said "in most cases" (=BS3+), you can reroll 2s. For a unit with BS2+, the full reroll doesn't even change anything but overwatch.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

We bloviating up in here?