Hit normal or -1 when firing a newly deployed turret?

[Corbulo]

Hey guys,

 

I had a game last Friday and I was playing with a lot of fire warriors. In my list I took a few SMS turrets. When I went to shoot (on the turn it came out) my opponent said it was -1 to hit because it moved. Since it is a heavy weapon I agreed with him, but now I'm not so sure. Is this the case?

 

Corb

[Panzer]

Why would it move? The SMS turret can't move whatsoever and it didn't arrive from reserves or such which would make it count as having moved either.

[GrinNfool]

Actually an interesting question.... my initial reaction would be no it doesn't count as moved, assuming the unit that placed it didn't move.  However reading the rules and looking it over I could certainly see some 1 saying its reserves.  Its a model that doesn't start on the table that you pay for (even has a wound), and arrives at the end of your movement phase.  That sounds a lot like a reserves to me and I could certainly see some 1 taking that opinion.  Reading it that way creates further questions: if the strike squad moves out of their deployment zone, can they not call in the turret on turn 1?  If you didn't call it by turn 3 is it lost?  Honestly its strange, I think it could use an FAQ on it, because functionally its a reserve, just its joins into a unit.  A good question to be sure, unfortunately its just vague enough I am not sure, as there is no other case to my knowledge of a reserves that is part of a unit.  I do think RAW its a reinforcement though and would be subject to all rules concerning them, as its a model you pay points for, and doesn't start on the table, though I would also say I don't think that its RAI. 

 

Edit: Did a quick check to see if the FAQ says anything about the DS8s and no mention of them.

 

Edit 2: changed reinforcements to reserves, as thats what I meant.

[Panzer]

Actually an interesting question.... my initial reaction would be no it doesn't count as moved, assuming the unit that placed it didn't move.  However reading the rules and looking it over I could certainly see some 1 saying its reinforcements.  Its a model that doesn't start on the table that you pay for (even has a wound), and arrives at the end of your movement phase.  That sounds a lot like a reinforcement to me and I could certainly see some 1 taking that opinion.  Reading it that way creates further questions: if the strike squad moves out of their deployment zone, can they not call in the turret on turn 1?  If you didn't call it by turn 3 is it lost?  Honestly its strange, I think it could use an FAQ on it, because functionally its a reinforcement, just its joins into a unit.  A good question to be sure, unfortunately its just vague enough I am not sure, as there is no other case to my knowledge of a reinforcement that is part of a unit.  I do think RAW its a reinforcement though and would be subject to all rules concerning them, as its a model you pay points for, and doesn't start on the table, though I would also say I don't think that its RAI. 

 

Edit: Did a quick check to see if the FAQ says anything about the DS8s and no mention of them.

 

Careful about the terms you are using. Reinforcements aren't restricted to turn 2-3. Reserves are. You could also summon Daemons turn 1 and after turn 3 as long as you have enough reinforcement points set aside. This also leads us to the next thing. You don't set reinforcement points aside to create a DS8 turret. You buy it as part of the unit and can it set up as part of the units ability once per game.

[Bryan Blaire]

Is it listed as Reinforcements or Reserves? Do the rules say it comes on the table as Reinforcements or Reserves? If not, then RAW, it’s not Reinforcements or Reserves.

 

Do the rules say that if the Turret is set up after the unit has moved, the turret counts as having moved? If not, then firing it wouldn’t have a penalty for having moved.

 

I don’t actually understand the argument being made here - being set up isn’t movement unless it actually says that somewhere in the rules.

[Panzer]

To prevent any speculation on the wording, here is the DS8 Turret rule as it's written on the Datasheet:

 

DS8 Tactical Support Turret:

Tactical Support Turrets are not set up when their unit is set up. Instead, once per
game, at the end of any of your Movement phases, you can set up the Tactical Support Turret within coherency of
its unit and more than 2" away from any enemy models.
The turret cannot move for any reason, and is destroyed if the Strike Team moves out of unit coherency with it.
The destruction of a Tactical Support Turret is ignored for the purposes of Morale tests.

[Bryan Blaire]

The fact that it says that the turret cannot move for any reason pretty much says it all - it can’t move, therefore it couldn’t count as “having moved” because it can’t.

 

Corb, you did the right thing just playing through and not arguing though!

[GrinNfool]

Is it listed as Reinforcements or Reserves? Do the rules say it comes on the table as Reinforcements or Reserves? If not, then RAW, it’s not Reinforcements or Reserves.

 

Do the rules say that if the Turret is set up after the unit has moved, the turret counts as having moved? If not, then firing it wouldn’t have a penalty for having moved.

 

I don’t actually understand the argument being made here - being set up isn’t movement unless it actually says that somewhere in the rules.

The problem is nothing or at least most things don't say reserves.  Reserves are models that aren't on the table at the start of the game, which means the turret is a reserve as its a model that doesn't start on the table.  As an example Manta strike for crisis suits says nothing about placing them in reserves, just says they can instead not start on the table, and later be deployed to the table.  The turret in this case is forced not to start on the table, which is a model that isn't starting on the table... making it reserves.... RAW.... again I don't think this is RAI.  It just creates a problem, that technically (and that is the important part on rules) his opponent was correct... it would be affected by -1 due to arriving from reserves.  I certainly don't think that was the intent of the rule for the turret... and wouldn't force an opponent to play that way, but if you were in a tournament and some 1 called you on it... technically.... they'd be right.

 

@Bryan Blaire the arriving from reserves rule is count as moving, which would ignore the fact the turret can't move unfortunately...

 

Edit: Again.... I would never tell an opponent to play by that rule as its not in the spirit of the game... but it is an interesting question, and I would suggest everyone submit it to GW to hopefully get it into an FAQ so people can't rules lawyer the turret.

[Bryan Blaire]

If you were in a tournament and someone wanted a ruling on it, the TO/referee would have to make an unofficial/non-GW ruling - that wouldn’t make your opponent automatically right nor would it make the TO/referee correct if they ruled against you.

 

What does the exact wording for “Reserves” day? Reserves were not always “anything not on the table” - maybe that’s changed recently, I don’t have my BRB handy. If it does say that, then I’d concede the point, however, if it isn’t, then no one can make the declaration that if it isn’t on the table, it’s Reserves.

 

The wording of Manta Strike is very different than the wording for the support turret. Manta Strike says “During deployment, you can set up this unit and any accompanying Drones in a Manta hold instead of placing them on the battlefield.” The key there is that it is the unit arriving (and I believe the idea of Reserves refers to units, not models, again, exact wording is important) to the battlefield. For the turret, it says that it doesn’t set up when the unit is deployed - therefore the unit isn’t “in reserves” and doesn’t arrive to the battlefield - the turret is already part of the unit and the unit is already deployed.

 

Anyway, I am pretty sure GW said that the “bespoke rule from the data sheet” is going to trump any standard game rule, but I would have to find that exact statement in the rules later - in which case the fact that the turret rule says it can’t move would override the Reserve thing anyway. You can’t be subject to a movement penalty if your rules say you can’t move, because you can’t move and therefore can’t incur said penalty.

 

I guess it would need a FAQ for an official answer, but I don’t see why anyone would think that part of a unit is arriving from Reserves if the unit is already on the table.

[Bryan Blaire]

Here is the BRB wording for Reserves:

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.

Since the wording of the rule states "unit", not "model", and the unit (the Strike Team) is already placed on the board at Deployment, the DS8 Support Turret could not trigger the Tactical Reserves rule. The turret is not a separate unit.

 

Here's the key, and it is exactly why words used/wording is important - it actually is the Reinforcements rule:

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.

So yes, I would concede that based on how this is worded (DS8s are set up on the battlefield mid-turn at the end of the Movement phase), the -1 for firing a Heavy weapon for "counts as having moved" would be applied to their shooting.

 

There we have it - per rules, -1 to hit with Heavy weapons the turn the turrets arrive.

[GrinNfool]

Here is the BRB wording for Reserves:

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.

Since the wording of the rule states "unit", not "model", and the unit (the Strike Team) is already placed on the board at Deployment, the DS8 Support Turret could not trigger the Tactical Reserves rule. The turret is not a separate unit.

 

Here's the key, and it is exactly why words used/wording is important - it actually is the Reinforcements rule:

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.

So yes, I would concede that based on how this is worded (DS8s are set up on the battlefield mid-turn at the end of the Movement phase), the -1 for firing a Heavy weapon for "counts as having moved" would be applied to their shooting.

 

There we have it - per rules, -1 to hit with Heavy weapons the turn the turrets arrive.

 

More or less my interpretation of it as well RAW... I don't agree with it or like it though.  There is certainly grey area just because of the "unit" "model" differential which is why it would be nice to get an official FAQ on it, as its a vague situation its in thats unique to the turret and strike/breacher teams.  Very interesting question though, OP, generally i find rules questions straight forward with a little reading, but this is an oddity to be sure.

[Marshlands]

If all of the reinforcement rules apply to units it makes it more or less irrelevant for the question of a turret doesn't it since the turrets not a unit

[Bryan Blaire]

If all of the reinforcement rules apply to units it makes it more or less irrelevant for the question of a turret doesn't it since the turrets not a unit

That's also true.

 

Probably do need a FAQ here - I know that I'm not entirely sure how it should be ruled.

[Marshlands]

 

If all of the reinforcement rules apply to units it makes it more or less irrelevant for the question of a turret doesn't it since the turrets not a unit

That's also true.

 

Probably do need a FAQ here - I know that I'm not entirely sure how it should be ruled.

Yeah - it seems that it's ambiguous as to what the turret actually is