Implications of potential Primaris gene-seed losses

[chapter master 454]

So one thing I wondered about with primaris is their 3 shiny new organs made by that mad lad cawl on one of his many hard drive induced mary sue invention rampage. Those 3 organs are talked about and referred to as far as I see as what makes the "super" marines "super". However one of the biggest and notable things about marines is how much they have to guard their gene-seed against deterioration which leads to the loss of organs. Imperial Fists I believe are missing the brain implant for being able to have parts of their brain sleep, Salamanders haven't lost one but instead mutated one into a different function and I can't remember other examples but this has been a defining point of marine lore as if a space marine chapter ever mutated/lost the black carapace, it would spell doom for the chapter.

 

But now, the primaris are here adding 3 new organs and I would ASSUME that the old chapters who suffered loss of organs have had those replaced now thanks to cawl basically having fresh stock from the beginning. However of these 3 organs, I see that 2 of them are kind of critical to creating a primaris marine. The steel coil one is just nice and could be lost without affecting primaris stats (they are still strength 4, the same as Catachans. Serious GW we need to talk about re-rigging stats a lot) but the other two seem to indicate they are core to what takes a marine to the primaris level.

 

So with lore being a thing and GW writing it, they can just mary sue it and just NEVER have one of the tension points of marines never pop up for primaris. But technically in time, won't there be PURE primaris chapters who can't sustain being primaris marines because their gene-seed loses one of their key organs?

[Bryan Blaire]

At very best, Cawl "made" two of the organs for the Primaris, but at least one is known to be directly from the work the Emperor did on the Primarchs, and likely they all are from that same data set, just with Cawl's modifications as needed, since he was trying to make Primaris, not Primarchs (but note the name similarity there).

 

With GW's lore being a thing and all. Let's not make that initial misstep for this discussion.

 

And if we are just discussing lore, then there's no need to discuss rules.

 

The tension for Primaris isn't really any more or less than for classic Astartes (which wasn't much in the first place), they still have to guard against gene-seed degradation, especially those on the Nihilus side - it's not like everyone can just pop down to Mars/wherever Cawl is and ask for a quick reset at any time. However, the new equipment for making Primaris may have some self-corrective/anti-degradation mechanisms for gene-seed, or there's any be other methods we haven't been told about yet.

 

We also don't know for sure at this time that some of the "mutations" weren't something planted in the gene-seed for the Marines that have lost functionality/have incorrect functionality of organs as designed by the Emperor and his assistants (of which Cawl was supposed to be one) or if their losses have truly been corrected - we know the Emperor planted the Canis Helix and other elements within some of the Legions, and the Blood Angels Primaris aren't totally immune to the Red Thirst, providing further evidence that some of these things were planned in.

[Panzer]

The difference to the past 10k years is that this time we have Cawl around who is capable of resetting the detoriation of geneseed. So it will only be an issue for chapters who are too far off to gain any support from Mars or who oppose the AdMech for whatever reason.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I've changed the topic title to make the subject of this discussion more clear.

 

You're assuming that Chapters, pure Primaris or not, will be left to their own devices with respect to preserving their gene-seed in terms of both quantity and quality. Since Cawl developed the Primaris gene-seed elsewhere, though, it's entirely possible that we'll see preservation of gene-seed quantity/quality not left solely to the Chapter. Cawl and his lackeys may have contingencies in place to both develop and store gene-seed in sufficient quantity and quality (purity) to sustain Chapters.

 

This possibility does significantly reduce a point of lore tension that has frankly been bypassed numerous times when the plot demanded (e.g., the Black Templars helping the Celestial Lions, a Chapter en masse replacing another Chapter that was all but destroyed, the successors of the Blood Angels Legion donating battle-brothers and gene-seed to help the Blood Angels after the Devastation of Baal, etc.).

 

This does however, create another point of lore tension in that Chapters now have no authoritative reason to retain those gene-seed mutations/defects that existed prior, but some Chapters will want to retain those defects for a variety of reasons. Really, there's no reason for the Imperial Fists to revel in their missing organs. The Black Dragons are another matter, so they may continue to foster the bony growths in some of their aspirants (perhaps just those of legacy gene-seed lineage and not their Primaris battle-brothers).

 

Ultimately, I doubt that there will be much of an impact; or GW will write in ways that Chapters might continue to have mutations/gene-seed losses. Practically speaking, these never really mattered in the past except when GW wanted them to matter, so there's nothing stopping them from mattering in the future.

[Blindhamster]

Well, at least for base geneseed we know cawl actively kept the "flaws" that he deemed to be part of the emperors design.

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, at least for base geneseed we know cawl actively kept the "flaws" that he deemed to be part of the emperors design.

Thats what’s been indicated - what I’m not sure of because I haven’t read the stories featuring it are whether things like the “pale mutation” of the Melanochrome in the Raven Guard is still present in the Primaris RG or if the Catalepsean Node and Betcher’s Glands work in Primaris IF/CF/BT?

 

If those are still there in the Primaris for those gene-lines, it would seem to indicate that they were “as intended” failures or mutations.

[Marshal Rohr]

Someone with more knowledge can answer this: Apothecaries only take the Geneseed organ in the neck, because that’s the one that the others are made from right?

[Panzer]

 

Well, at least for base geneseed we know cawl actively kept the "flaws" that he deemed to be part of the emperors design.

Thats what’s been indicated - what I’m not sure of because I haven’t read the stories featuring it are whether things like the “pale mutation” of the Melanochrome in the Raven Guard is still present in the Primaris RG or if the Catalepsean Node and Betcher’s Glands work in Primaris IF/CF/BT?

 

If those are still there in the Primaris for those gene-lines, it would seem to indicate that they were “as intended” failures or mutations.

 

 

I believe things like the paleness of Raven Guard and the coal black skin of the Salamanders are things that Cawl has fixed because those things really don't have any purpose at all but things like the Blood Angels Red Thirst and whatever it's called the Space Wolves have is still in there.

However since especially the coal black skin of the Salamanders is one of the big things that let people identify them on the first glance even if they'd wear different armour (or no armour at all) I doubt GW will actually get rid of it. If I'm not completely mistaken we've already seen a Primaris Salamander painted with coal black skin already too.

So basically not a proper in-universe reason why these flaws are still there, if they are still there, but rather a marketing (I guess that's the right term for it?) reason.

 

 

Someone with more knowledge can answer this: Apothecaries only take the Geneseed organ in the neck, because that’s the one that the others are made from right?

 

If I recall correctly in the other thread about geneseed it got speculated that they take the organ in the neck out while the Marine is still alive because it's simply easier than having to break open the ribcage first and leave the one in the ribcage because it's as well protected as possible and it's much easier to extract once the Marine is already dead.

[Blindhamster]

Cawl confirms that all the broken organs are fixed in dark imperium.

[Brother Tyler]

Ideally, both progenoids will be taken. The first is taken at initial maturity. The second is taken later in life (or upon suffering mortal wounds). Both progenoids provide what is necessary to create the full range of organs [that a Chapter's gene-seed has].

 

Quoting from a discussion from May of this year:

From the Warhammer 40K Compendium (1989) Chapter Approved article on The Origin of the Legiones Astartes (1st edition):

 

Phase 18 - Progenoids. There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck, the other deep within the chest cavity. These glands are important to the survival of the Marine's chapter. Each organ grows within the Marine, absorbing hormonal stimuli and genetic material from the other implants. After five years the neck gland is mature and ready for removal. After ten years the chest gland becomes mature and is also ready for removal. A gland may be removed anytime after it has matured.

 

These glands represent a chapter's only source of gene-seed. When mature, each gland contains a single gene-seed corresponding to each zygote implanted into the recipient Marine. Once removed by surgery, the progenoid must be carefully prepared, its individual gene-seeds checked for mutation, and sound gene-seeds stored. Gene-seeds can be stored indefinitely under suitable conditions.

From Codex: Ultramarines (2nd edition):

 

Space Marines rarely go to battle without an Apothecary. The Apothecary is a warrior of supreme might and bravery, whose role is to save what he can of the Chapter's gene-seed.

The lore for both the progenoids and apothecaries have remained consistent through the editions. It is the Apothecary whose role it is to remove progenoids from the fallen, and they are equipped with the reductor for that purpose. Any lore depicting non-Apothecaries (Wolf Priests in the Space Wolves Chapter combine the role of Chaplain and Apothecary) removing progenoids probably depict exceptions, progenoid removal conducted in extremis. All Space Marines learn a bit about combat medicine (stated in 1st edition lore), but they lack the deep training and equipment to perform progenoid removal except under duress, and most likely with much more risk than that incurred by an Apothecary.

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Also one of the new "organs" isn't actually one. It's just metal transplanted to give even more strength to marines.

[Thunderforge]

Phase 18 - Progenoids. There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck, the other deep within the chest cavity. These glands are important to the survival of the Marine's chapter. Each organ grows within the Marine, absorbing hormonal stimuli and genetic material from the other implants. After five years the neck gland is mature and ready for removal. After ten years the chest gland becomes mature and is also ready for removal. A gland may be removed anytime after it has matured.

 

So can the neck glands be 'harvested' every five years? Does a new one re-grow? (I'm guessing not...)

 

[Leonaides]

No - its a one-and-done deal. They are implanted with 2 seed progenoids, which each mature and then are removable, each one containing sufficient genetic material for a full complement of marine organs (ie: 2 further progenoids). The only way to get new progenoids out would be to implant new seed progenoids and hope they grew correctly and managed to collect the right amount of material for another full set of organs - though this might not happen since most of the other organs will not be in an active growth stage and there may not be suitable genetic material floating around the marines bloodstream any more. This would also leave a new marine without any progenoids (which may have an effect on his organ growth) and/or mean ditchign the rest of a full set of potential organs/wasting a potential neophyte as there is one less set of organs to implant.

[Captain Idaho]

Here's an interesting thought which raises a bunch of questions... (sorry)

 

The genetic line of Marines is passed on by the Geneseed of a Marine who dies/donated it right? We don't believe that not having Geneseed causes organ failure but we should likely presume not. Anyway, new Marines are created using the organs grown from this Geneseed right? Well what happens to Marines who aren't Primaris who are upgraded? Their Geneseed hasn't been modified therefore their Geneseed isn't even Primaris!

 

Most Chapters see Geneseed as sacred and valuable so surely they don't discard it?

 

***

 

Oh yeah remember "a day in the life of a Space Marine" from 3rd edition? Geneseed sampling was taken every day after certain stimulation, implying that it was a resource to cultivate. What more I do not know.

[No Foes Remain]

I honestly don't think that GW knows whats going on with Gene Seed and the organs for astartes. People have been talking about primaris gene-seed, but (aside from fixing problems [missing/defective organs]) is there any reason why Primaris gene seed (i.e. the Progenoid glands) couldn't be used on a Non-Primaris Marine or vice versa? There sees to be either a lack of info or conflicting info regarding all the organs and the gene seed (both new and old).

[Panzer]

Of course GW knows what's going on with geneseed. Everything they decide to is going on with it. It's literally their thing. As for why Primaris geneseed can't be used on a non-Primaris Marine or vice versa? Because geneseed they decided it's not compatible, period. If they say it's like that then that's how it works. Not to mention it makes sense. Geneseed are partially a blueprint for how to turn a human male into a Marine, that includes the implanted organs as well. Nothing conflicting about it.

[chapter master 454]

I always thought the second gene-seed was taken at death but from what tyler linked...would that mean veteran marines (or any marine over 10 years in service) go through a process to remove this second gene-seed when possible rather than risk losing it? I mean...would that not make sense? Like the only method can't just be "hold on, lemme just put a piledriver through your chest to grab that seed"

 

Which would mean apothecaries would really only attach primarily to squads where gene-seed could be possibly lost. I mean, marine armour already has med supplies and injuries that stop marines tend to need more than a fancy drill and extra morphine (though I wager black templars wouldn't object to being allowed to hop at enemies with one leg and one arm).

 

Kinda now gives me extra questions about apothecaries really. I get the idea, even if the marine doesn't get to 10 years he can still get what he can from the gene seed (possibly where degradations come from?) but it does seem niche.

 

And fair enough. Cawl just Mary Sues it. I get he is implied to of been one of the helpers but lets be real here...he did just pop up with no prior lore for his existence. (like, not even within mechanicus lore. Just one book making reference to him prior would be been a big deal).

[The Unseen]

I think somewhere it's mentioned that the 2nd progenoid is left in because it helps regulate the marines incredibly complicated physiology, but that might be headcanon/reasonable guess depending on pov.

The 1st one is taken out early to ensure the chapter always has a replacement for that particular recruit, the 2nd one, when it's able to be recovered, I'm guessing goes towards paying the tithe for testing and safekeeping by whatever adeptus does that (well, apparently also Cawl skimmed off the top of that a lot over the past 10 millenia), along with restoring any lost due to whatever reason.

[Cleon]

This isn't something I'd previously considered, but it's now got me thinking about the Lamenters. Assuming they still exist and that one of the crusade fleets found them, I guess they'd have to get 'pure' Blood Angels Legion Primaris brothers and gene seed - Does thiss mean the special tinkering done on them which attempted to remove the rage/thirst is gone (and maybe the seeming bad luck curse with it?) and what happens if a Lamenter crosses the Rubicon - do they then have different Lamenter Primaris genes creating an extra strand of primaaris lineage or would they be converted back to pure Cawl Mk2 Blood Angels?

[The Unseen]

All chapters (supposedly) send their own tithe using their own geneseed, so it's perfectly reasonable that the lamenters were sending some of their own geneseed to be examined and stored, before their penitent crusade at least and Cawl took that.

So Primaris Lamenters could be either one, up to player choice I guess.

[No Foes Remain]

The Blood Ravens short in the July WD has the Custodians seeking out the Blood Ravens and giving them their gene-seed thats been Primariseded.

[Boldthreat]

Here’s the real question:

 

If the Primaris line completely refreshes and restores the deficiencies in each genetic line.

 

And it remains the current retcon that Black Templar’s do not produce Librarians because their genetic material no longer produces them because of some ancient event or quirk.

 

... then should Black Templar’s now have Librarians? The answer should be yes. If it’s no; I would love to read as to why.

[redmapa]

Here’s the real question:

If the Primaris line completely refreshes and restores the deficiencies in each genetic line.

And it remains the current retcon that Black Templar’s do not produce Librarians because their genetic material no longer produces them because of some ancient event or quirk.

... then should Black Templar’s now have Librarians? The answer should be yes. If it’s no; I would love to read as to why.

That disgusting piece of lore is presented as outsiders making theories as to why they dont have psykers, even in universe it has no value. Their lack of psykers is purely cultural.

[Boldthreat]

 

Here’s the real question:

If the Primaris line completely refreshes and restores the deficiencies in each genetic line.

And it remains the current retcon that Black Templar’s do not produce Librarians because their genetic material no longer produces them because of some ancient event or quirk.

... then should Black Templar’s now have Librarians? The answer should be yes. If it’s no; I would love to read as to why.

That disgusting piece of lore is presented as outsiders making theories as to why they dont have psykers, even in universe it has no value. Their lack of psykers is purely cultural.

Are you sure? I thought this revelation came from Helbrecht himself in Guy Haley’s The Eternal Crusader. I’m going off memory but he walks by the Cordoned off Chapter Librarium and laments the loss to the Chapter. I could be wrong or misremembering it. But I came away with the in universe impression that the Black Templar’s can’t make Librarians. Not that they choose not to.

[Marshal Rohr]

I wouldn’t take much of Eternal Crusader to be accurate. They also said the chapter was reduced to a thousand marines. That turned out not to be true.