carlisimo Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 I thought it’d be interesting to look at how the Siege of Terra has changed over time. Black Library seems to be making a significant effort to maintain as many of the old plot points as possible (except Yonnad), even when they’re hard to make sense of. For example, the White Scars are mentioned as early as 1989 but then they disappear from the story. The 1999 White Dwarf article might help explain that by having them start the siege outside of the palace (by then they were bike-loving Space Mongols and it made some sense for them to fight that way - in 1989 they were just a regular chapter). Here goes. Please help fill in the gaps, and then we can start comparing it to the Black Library novels. Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness (1988) has the basic outline (55-day siege, the Emperor taking some Imperial Fists and “Custodes Adeptus soldiery” with him to Horus’s command chamber), and also the bit about the Emperor’s Children not hanging out at the siege and going off to party. It also credits the World Eaters with first breaching the walls of the Outer Palace. In the Space Marine rulebook (1st ed. Epic, 1989), it’s day 55, the Imperial Fists and “Whitescars” are holding the south and west walls, the Lion Gate and the Eternity Wall are named and about to fall, and the Emperor tells Dorn that they’re going to teleport into Horus’s command chamber with some Fists and Custodes while Yonnad holds the fort. Poor Yonnad - I never understood killing him in the Crimson Fist. No Blood Angels yet. In Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned (1990), featuring the Bill King story, “Most of the earth is under the Warmaster’s heel.” I had forgotten about that, but it may help explain the upcoming White Scars/Emperor’s Children plot. It’s good strategy, anyway; you don’t want to get attacked from behind while laying a siege. Acting Fabricator-General Kane is named, and the Martian Civil War is mentioned. Sanguinius and the Blood Angels are now in the story; the White Scars aren’t. Horus is now on the Vengeful Spirit - the previous stories weren’t specific, but read as if he had a command post on Terra. The 2nd ed. Chaos Space Marine codex (1996) added Legio Mortis demolishing the walls. That must’ve been in one of the previous books, surely, probably one of the Adeptus Titanicus rulebooks. The Siege of the Emperor’s Palace White Dwarf, 1999?) is written like an Index Astartes article but I’m not sure it made it into the IA books. Anyone know? It starts out with the World Eaters and Death Guard assaulting the Eternity Wall and Lion’s Gate spaceports, and “Imperial Guard” garrisons revealing themselves as traitors and helping the spaceports fall. Traitor titans link the two landing sites prior to assaulting the Outer Wall - which seems incompatible with the recent map of the Imperial Palace. Angron roars out Horus’s terms for surrender and is rebutted by Sanguinius outside the Saturnine Gate - but the article says this is part of the traditional story that doesn’t appear in any contemporary accounts. The White Scars harass the Traitors from without, the Emperor’s Children leave to look for entertainment, the World Eaters and the Flaming Skulls titan legio assault the walls in one place while the Iron Warriors and Legio Mortis attack at another. The latter cracks open the walls. The White Scars then take the Lion’s Gate spaceport and hold it against the Death Guard (who were the principal reserve) and cut Chaos reinforcements in half. Sanguinius fights a bloodthirster at the Ultimate Gate, the Thousand Sons try to force the gate but Dorn commandeers the Sky Fortress and holds them to a stalemate. Then Horus realizes the Space Wolves and Dark Angels are closer to arriving so he drops the shields and we know what happens next. I don’t have Collected Visions (2007) but I assume that’s the next big revision. I remember the White Scars taking the Lion’s Gate spaceport in conjunction with a Terran tank regiment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex D'Arquebus Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 Nice topic! One gap in your timeline I think. It also answers some of your questions as well possibly. There was a Horus Heresy game put out in 1993 by GW, also there was a game in a White Dwarf that year that used the same system but was set aboard the Vengeful Spirit. The HH game and the White Dward both featured an account of the siege that has gone on to be the skeleton for the events during the siege. Iterations of this account have been used in the Visions of Heresy books but with some changes. It is also the basis for the Index Astrartes 1999 article you referenced. The link above shows the map of Terra from the game which is pretty different from the map in TLaTD. Also in the WD compendium (1989) there's an article in there refering to the crux terminatus and how it's got slivers of the Emperor's armour as Terminators for the Imperial Fist Marine chapter (along with custodes) accompanied the Emperor during the attack on Horus' bunker Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5355242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicus Tech-Support Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 "the previous stories weren’t specific, but read as if he had a command post on Terra." Recalling an old thread either here or else where I can't remember (been a while) there was a discussion about the origins and Ollanius Pius and how he now fit into the siege. It was brought up that we got Pius from one of the earlier stories where the battle took place in Horus' command bunker on Terra (which made sense on the issue of how/why Pius was there in the first place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5355327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisimo Posted July 30, 2019 Author Share Posted July 30, 2019 Oh man, I forgot about Pius. I had some notes saved from the last time I looked for that history. The Warhammer 40,000 Compendium (1989) has an image of an M41 Imperial Guard company and the caption says that it's common for company banners to feature Ollanius Pius, "...the guardsman who sacrificed his life to save the Emperor from the rebel Horus." It doesn't say that it happened during the Siege of Terra, but when else could it be? Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned says it was a Terminator. Space Marine: Renegades (2nd ed. Epic, 1992) doesn't mention the interloper but it does say the Emperor teleported to the battle barge with two primarchs and Terminator Space Marines. No mention of Custodes. When did it become a Custodian Guard? Collected Visions? -- Lex, I had no idea about that 1993 board game or the one aboard the Vengeful Spirit. I’ll have to try to find that map. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5355332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roomsky Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 Anyone have an evolution of Horus v The Emperor? The oldest I have is from Visions of Death, where Horus kicks him around and tears his arm off before killing a Custodian to convince big E he's fallen too far. I've heard versions where there was barely a fight at all, where they were near evenly matched, where Emps could have won right away if he didn't hold back, etc. I'd also be interested in learning when they added Sanguinius putting a chink in Horus' armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5355414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 This kind of historiography is my favourite thing to discuss. When I have more time I’ll add more, but a detail from the old WD noted that Rogal Dorn’s ‘Space fortress’ was taken down by (I think?) titan fire and crashed upon Terra. We know now that’s not the Phalanx, but in early lore it certainly was... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5355427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Laertes Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 I seem to remember an old short story set (probably just a page) in the Emperor's throne room, where Dorn, Sanguinius and the Fabricator general are in front of the Emperor and ask for His guidance threee times, and three times he stays silent, because He does not know what to do, as He had reached the limit of his foresight, and His prescience failed Him. Until he senses the the shield of the Vengeful Spirit have been lowered, so he decides to move. It was really an intense story, I remember loving it, but I cannot remember where I have read it, and I cannot find any reference to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5355492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 Oh huh, never knew that Yonnad had older precedent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5355526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex D'Arquebus Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 Oh man, I forgot about Pius. I had some notes saved from the last time I looked for that history. The Warhammer 40,000 Compendium (1989) has an image of an M41 Imperial Guard company and the caption says that it's common for company banners to feature Ollanius Pius, "...the guardsman who sacrificed his life to save the Emperor from the rebel Horus." It doesn't say that it happened during the Siege of Terra, but when else could it be? Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned says it was a Terminator. Space Marine: Renegades (2nd ed. Epic, 1992) doesn't mention the interloper but it does say the Emperor teleported to the battle barge with two primarchs and Terminator Space Marines. No mention of Custodes. When did it become a Custodian Guard? Collected Visions? -- Lex, I had no idea about that 1993 board game or the one aboard the Vengeful Spirit. I’ll have to try to find that map. Yes, I seem to recall it was in collected visions that they made the change to it being a Custodian https://boardgamegeek.com/image/129038/horus-heresy-1993 is the best image of the map I can find. I seem to recall the rulebook for the game having a historical set up where the disposition of the forces was given in greater detail. I might dig it out and have a look at it. Anyone have an evolution of Horus v The Emperor? The oldest I have is from Visions of Death, where Horus kicks him around and tears his arm off before killing a Custodian to convince big E he's fallen too far. I've heard versions where there was barely a fight at all, where they were near evenly matched, where Emps could have won right away if he didn't hold back, etc. I'd also be interested in learning when they added Sanguinius putting a chink in Horus' armour. I seem to remember an old short story set (probably just a page) in the Emperor's throne room, where Dorn, Sanguinius and the Fabricator general are in front of the Emperor and ask for His guidance threee times, and three times he stays silent, because He does not know what to do, as He had reached the limit of his foresight, and His prescience failed Him. Until he senses the the shield of the Vengeful Spirit have been lowered, so he decides to move. It was really an intense story, I remember loving it, but I cannot remember where I have read it, and I cannot find any reference to it. To my recollection these are both the same thing. The initial story of the Emperor vs Horus by William King was publised in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned, it may also have appeared in a white dwarf. This version starts in the throne room with him being asked for guidance three times so is likely the one Grand Master Laertes is thinking of, it is this version that forms the basis of the account of Horus vs the Emperor in the Visons books in all their iterations. This kind of historiography is my favourite thing to discuss. When I have more time I’ll add more, but a detail from the old WD noted that Rogal Dorn’s ‘Space fortress’ was taken down by (I think?) titan fire and crashed upon Terra. We know now that’s not the Phalanx, but in early lore it certainly was... It is fun isn't it! I feel like an Inquistor going through all these old texts If it's the version from White Dwarf that I'm thinking of it's not 'Space Fortess' it's Sky Fortess, I suspect this will be the orbital plate of Skye that's already appeared in the HH and SoT series so far. In the White Dward article I'm thinking of it is shot down by the Death's Head titan Legaion after it drops Dorn and the Fists back at the inner Palace and is on the way to pick up the Khan. I might go through th old WD article and do a bullet point of what it's version of events are if anyone is interested? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5355644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 I’d love to see it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5355901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex D'Arquebus Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 Okay, I have revisited the account of the Siege off Terra published in the 1993 HH board game a couple of things stand out: Firstly I love this account, I remember reading it when it was published in White Dwarf and it introduced the Heresy to me. Much like Obi Wan's Clone Wars line in A New Hope there are a ton of little reference points that served as jumping off points for the larger 30K and 40K experiences for me. As previously alluded to in this thread I feel the geography of Terra and the Palace in particular is pretty different to what it is being presented as now. In the most recent iteration of the geography of the Imperial Palace on Terra the Eternity Wall and Lion's Gate space ports are within the Palace's walls, in the 1993 map of Terra that the game is played on the space ports appear to be outwith the walls, moreover there is a lot of open, devastated, almost desert ,ground between them and the Palace. Furthermore there are another two space ports mentioned in the 1993 game that I don't believe have been brought up yet, Spaces ports Damocles and Primus. Now to the chronology as per the 1993 version 13th of Secundus 30014 the bombardment began Civil War across the Imperium Terra suffering under the Traitor bombardment, sea's evaporated, mountain chain shuddering, rains of ash and blood, tectonic plates shifting. “The Emperor himself oversaw the defence of his fortress palace. Personally commanding the Adeptus Custodes, his elite guard.” Sanguinius with the Emperor in the Palace as are the Adeptus Arbites Palace is not the only bastion of resistance, Imperial Fist's Fortress Monastery (Dorn is here, leading the stern Imperial Fists in final prayer), Adeptus Mechanicus armoured Factory Complexes, burnt out hab areas (Khan is here, leading the White Scars whom he personally instructed in the art of lightning warfare). Three full titan Legions stand ready to defend the Emperor. Tank Divisions roar across the tortured landscape to take up defensive positions. Defenders pray and check their weapons. Defence Lasers turn to the sky as drop pod contrails streak down through the night sky, even the Spae Marines with the Emperor's Halls shudder at the prospect of facing their Chaos tainted brothers and the corrupt Primarchs leading them. Pods touch down and warped and twisted marines emerge, as tainted as the marines are the primarchs are worse “they had been transformed into creatures both daemonic and exultant” Angron, Mortarion, Magnus and Fulgrim all mentioned. Many units of Imperial army that were on the Loyalist side turn traitor as the traitor drop pod assault occurs. “It was almost as if it were a pre-arranged signal. In one of the basest acts in humanity's history they turned their weapons on their brother warriors and cut them down like dogs”. This leads to Lion's Gate Space Port falling. As heretics chant and howl mad prayers, daemons manifest on Terra from the Warp spreading terror and dismay. Traitor drops ships start their decent, unlike the drop pods these are easy targets for the defenders' Defence Lasers. Many drop ships are shot down, one crashing into a hab unit killing 100, 000 people, one get's welded to the ground discharging it's passengers into a lake of bubbling tar and plascrete, “The vessel of the Warped Dogs was vaporised and that Titan Legion's name passed into history.” I'm going to leave it there tonight and pick it up again over the weekend Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5356842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedor Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 As for Sanguinius opening up a weak point on Horus....the earliest i remember that was in White Dwarf lore for the Blood Angels circa 93-96. sanguinius refuses his offer to betray the Emperor and they have a brief fight where Sang avoids the initial attacks and takes an opening to land his blow that is speculated to open up a weak point that the Emperor later exploited, then is quickly killed off screen with it ending in a line like " and then the talons of the warmaster closed in on the winged angel of baal" It's been many years since i read it and i can't recall a lot of the specifics, but it's pretty bleak and desperate stuff, even though it gives Sanguinius more of a possible accomplishment in combat than the earlier siege account where Horus wrings his neck like a chicken without a fight and it's made well clear that even at the peak of his powers he would stand no chance. If BL stick to something similar to this lore-and imo they should as the impact of the lore was in sanguinius being overmatched and prescient yet still refusing- then it's going to shake or piss off a lot of the Sangunius fanboy crowd i see on sites like 40klore that seem to have developed a collective headcanon that Sanguinius is far superior to everyone else(all things being equal) and is going to have an epic throwdown with a Horus bolstered by all of the Gods before losing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5357169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 Sanguinius is the Archangel Michael to Horus' Lucifer. He should be overmatched but not swatted aside. Some believe he is the mightiest in combat among the Primarchs. His confrontation with Horus should provide additional fuel to that idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5357198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedor Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 He was a competitor to Horus when they were normal primarchs and that's the context of some feeling he's among the best too. I'd argue that with Horus being boosted by all Chaos Gods to someone we are supposed to see as a credible threat to the Emperor, that no standard Primarch should be able to do much at all with him unless they have some kind of specially suited wargear like Russ' spear. The old lore successfully created a tragic noble character in sanguinius that i feel would be significantly diminished if he really has any chance of winning. it's a good additon to the character that Ruinstorm added in with him now not being entirely closed off to the chance of avoiding his visions, like he seemed to be earlier in the series, but it should ultimately be a futile hope. If i had to bet on it, i'd go for them sticking close to that old WD description of the fight but with a few more moments for Sanguinius. I'd be happy with that, but would prefer a memorable verbal confrontation then grim murder of the Bill King version rather than a fight at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5357234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 If Russ wasn't instantly pulled by Horus and even managed to land a blow with the Spear, Sanguinius could go a good round or two before dying. It also seems rather silly now that Russ was given the Spear of the Emperor to take with him on his suicidal mission. Frankly, the Spear of the Emperor sounds more effective than the Sword of the Emperor against an enemy like Horus (a once-noble Primarch corrupted by Chaos). It sounds like the Emperor could have easily incapacitated Horus on the Vengeful Spirit had he been equipped with the Spear, i.e. such a potent weapon should have been kept near the Emperor with Horus incoming Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5357601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedor Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 Yeah the Horus in Wolfsbane doesn't really come off as an Emperor level threat to me, though i guess he might be further boosted by now or the by the time of the final confrontation. i enjoyed Wolfsbane a lot when taken as a mythical journey sort of book and for the Fenris lore, but Russ arc in it doesn't hold up to much scrutiny, especially if you are more into the series from the military sci-fi side rather than fantasy and like the tactics to be a bit more grounded. I also feel having gone the route they did with the book, it would have had a lot more impact if Horus had killed or severely maimed Russ after he fails to exploit the injury andfalters in his self-appointed executioner role, burdened by what had happened at Prospero as he was. Of course there was too much old lore for Russ being around after the siege for them to do that, but the primarch being saved once again by his sons doing a pile-up at the last minute diminished the weight of the confrontation imo. Back on old Siege lore, i can also remember an extract in one of the BA codex or WD based on Death Company Marine memory analysis( or something similar) that Horus and the Gods had subjected Sanguinius to extensive psychic attack, trickery and manipulation as he fought his way to the bridge. Speculated by the BA to be because he would still have been unable to match a fully aware Sanguinius. I wonder if we'll see that concept pop up in some way as it could be applied to other characters easily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5358274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 Just remember that Horus was still rejecting the Gods during Wolfsbane, it was only in Slaves to Darkness that he really came into his full power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5358403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 I ve heard from an old Veteran Player a Long time ago that there was an allusion that the Emperor lost the fight against Horus and the Imperial fist Terminators killed Horus instead... but they never told that (not even Dorn himself)... I was not able to proof that since he told me this Story. Maybe some of you guys know that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5358432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie40K Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 I ve heard from an old Veteran Player a Long time ago that there was an allusion that the Emperor lost the fight against Horus and the Imperial fist Terminators killed Horus instead... but they never told that (not even Dorn himself)... I was not able to proof that since he told me this Story. Maybe some of you guys know that. Sounds like he was selling b.s. No disrespect intended. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5358449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 Even armed with the magical Spear of the Emperor, Russ (or any loyalist Primarch) should not have the power to incapacitate post-Molech Horus...and then inexplicably falter. And why would Valdor or Malcador give such a powerful weapon to Russ, who is bent on rushing off into enemy territory and may not even have the chance to use it against Horus (or even lose it), when the weapon could be reserved As a plot point, it logically fails on multiple levels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5358463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 I still think that arc should have been played with Wolfsbane being a novella which leads into Titandeath, with the Wolves present in the latter. Russ then goes up against Horus knowing the odds are against him. The fight plays out as you'd expect, but Russ just holds on long enough for Horus to ask: "Any last words, Leman?" (Spits blood) close-up on a shard of the Spear in Russ' hand as he raises his eyes to Horus' "Aye" (Beat) "Morkai" (stabbity doo wop, Horus staggers back and the Wolves barely manage to save Russ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5359303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 If the SW participate in Titandeath, wouldn't they return to Terra with the WS and BA? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5359474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfburk Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 It would make sense if they do, which is why i have no beef with wolfsbane and that battle being a sole wolves affair Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5359501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 If the SW participate in Titandeath, wouldn't they return to Terra with the WS and BA? Possibly, but if they've become isolated from the main Loyalist fleets then they could potentially be driven in another direction entirely by the Traitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5359619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 If the SW participate in Titandeath, wouldn't they return to Terra with the WS and BA? Possibly, but if they've become isolated from the main Loyalist fleets then they could potentially be driven in another direction entirely by the Traitors. Or it could simply be a situation where Sanguinius & the others are put in a position between falling back or mounting a futile assault to help retrieve Russ and his Legion as the forces of the Warmaster sweep forward, cutting off the Wolves. They pragmatically choose the former. Nice little bit of drama Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357411-the-siege-of-terra%E2%80%99s-evolution/#findComment-5359693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.