Principia Titanicus

[Marshal Loss]

Any thoughts from folks (paging Mandragola & co.!) on how to best use Mordaxis, given their movement penalties? At the suggestion of another member of this forum who is far more tactically proficient than yours truly, I'm starting with an Arcus maniple geared to produce a truly unholy amount of 5" blasts: Nemesis with Quake, 2x Volcano & Toxin Nodes, 1x Warhound with 2x Vulcan, 1x Warhound with 2x Plasma & Toxin Nodes. Got a lot of spare Titans that I had originally intended for a different project so fortunately I can build in pretty much any direction. All suggestions welcome!

[Sherrypie]

Any thoughts from folks (paging Mandragola & co.!) on how to best use Mordaxis, given their movement penalties? At the suggestion of another member of this forum who is far more tactically proficient than yours truly, I'm starting with an Arcus maniple geared to produce a truly unholy amount of 5" blasts: Nemesis with Quake, 2x Volcano & Toxin Nodes, 1x Warhound with 2x Vulcan, 1x Warhound with 2x Plasma & Toxin Nodes. Got a lot of spare Titans that I had originally intended for a different project so fortunately I can build in pretty much any direction. All suggestions welcome!

Try to play defensive missions (Retrieval is right out), use continuous stratagems that strip shields of your enemies (like Strafing Run) to let you actually have those blasts in there, consider using Quakes to mainly cut your opponent's movement and keep them in place for more devastating plasma blasts, don't let your Vulcan Hounds die in vain if your shield-blasting ability relies on them and think at least one turn ahead where you want your own forces to be and maneuver accordingly since speedy responding is out of the picture.

[The boater]

What does everyone think about how some of the Legio titan swapping abilities will mesh with the new warbringer maniples? Personally I’ve been thinking about trading a warlord with a reaver in a Ruptura using Fortidus Legio rules. Having an agressive (possibly even a close combat) warlord being able to stroll to the middle for free would be quite powerful. Thoughts?

[Sherrypie]

Ruptura will be the interesting one to watch, though the effect itself is limited by Warbringers not exactly shining in the finishing role required for the bonus. Fortidus and their myriad descendants will surely have a field day with that, though I would personally perhaps look more into swapping the Warlord in for a Warbringer and let the aggressive Reavers push forwards. A Warlord can very much work in the killer role, getting the effect off perhaps more than once in a game with more reliability.

[Mandragola]

@Martial Loss, I find Mordaxis a tricky one to judge. Being unable to increase speed or turns is a pretty crippling disadvantage, especially for a Warlord. It isn't quite as bad for Reavers and for Warhounds it's sort of fine, as it's generally not a great plan to push their reactors too hard anyway. Warhounds also arguably gain the most from the Mordaxis strat giving +2 servitor clades for a turn. And they'll be glad of the resilience to quake and concussive hits.

 

Then it's just a question of sticking plasma blastguns (that are somehow poisonous?) all over the things - or at least as much as is reasonable. It's probably more efficient to run double plasma hounds and upgrade them, while putting your bolters and stuff elsewhere so those hounds don't need to buy the poison. Run something like Lupercal or Ferrox and things should be ok. A Double-melta reaver could also work well.

 

I'm not sure that it's actually that big a deal to increase the size of a blast. It's decent for shield stripping and killing knights though. A melta cannon going down from S11 to S10 isn't that bad, and it still bypasses ion shields. On the other hand Warlords don't have any small blasts to begin with.

 

On the subject of Warbringers, personally I think swapping a Fortidas Warlord into a Ruptura maniple I'd replace a Warbringer, not a Reaver. Give it sunfury and macro gatling and it'll get kills, which will get your Reavers moving.

 

Alternatively, you could build a Regia maniple with a Warbringer replacing a Warhound, sharing shields with a Warlord. Or stick it into a Fortis maniple. It's a well-shielded titan with a good reactor so it would hang around.

 

As Sherrypie says, Warbringers aren't generally going to be that good at getting killing blows. That's especially true if they hang back and fire blasts at things. I've been thinking of having one with quake and double volcano cannons (which isn't totally insane for my Astorum) but it doesn't feel all that exciting. Running it closer in, with melta and gatling and maybe a bellicosa on the roof, would be a lot more interesting and much better at getting killing blows. Laser blasters, gatling blasters and melta cannons all seem like better guns than the volcano cannon to me. I don't like adding heat to a titan for a not especially powerful gun. 

 

I think this might change if you were better at long-range shooting. Praesagius and Fureans come to mind as options for the Ruptura. Fureans in particular could benefit a lot from Offensive Surge if using a full Ruptura maniple. Get a Reaver into combat and attack twice with its chainfist, for example. On the other hand Praesagius' ability to reroll locations means they can spam things with blasts and have a decent chance of them hitting something that's already damaged. A Praesagius Warbinger with the load-out straight out of the box would work pretty well I think, especially if you had a few Reavers running around with gatlings, meltas and close combat weapons.

 

In general I think that it makes sense to try and fill out a Ruptura maniple, to get the maximum possible benefit for those Reavers. The good news is that it's a maniple that fits reasonably well at 1750 points, with a bit of space for upgrades. I do think it would be a generally fun maniple to play and pretty tactically flexible. You can deploy the reavers first and then set up the Warbringers once there are some targets for them to point at.

 

There are some other interesting options. A Vulpa Ruptura maniple offers a good way across the battlefield, though Vulpa Warbringers seem kind of odd. Defensor ones can fire their main cannons twice on turn 1, which is great but a bit dangerous if they're bellicosas but otherwise pretty nice, especially if Reavers are stripping shields. I think they make a good "target" for the Vulcanum thing of having an extra Seniores, because you can take one as a reinforcement outside of a maniple and then it can sit back blasting away. Swift killer would be a great Seniores trait for it.

 

In all honesty I'm not sure they add all that much to my Astorum battlegroup, mainly as they aren't really compatible with my Warlords. I've got a couple of them and I'm a bit tempted to paint them as another Legio. The Ruptura maniple isn't really that exciting when I can already move reavers pretty fast with war march. A Mortis force using March of the Dead could potentially move Reavers around all over the place though, and that might be entertaining. I'm not sure it works all that well with Penumbral Reaper though, in terms of actually fitting into a list. There's obviously a case for doing whatever would be most fun, rather than most optimal... but I have most fun with my Warlords.

 

There is of course the age old answer to the question of whether I should have Astorum or Mortis Warbringers. "Why not both?"

[The boater]

Mandragola: thanks for the in depth analysis. I think I’m kinda leaning that way as well with switching one of the warbringers with a daka warlord. Ultimately though I think dropping the warbringer into other maniples maniples might be much more interesting, and as of now Dauntless is the only legio that can.

 

As for actual warbringer load outs: I think my favorite is the Gat/ Lazer/ Quake Combo. It gives you decent shield striping, and the lasers can follow up on whatever location the quake cannon hits. All around though, I think everyone is fairly on the money that warbringers aren’t really Killers. They will do a ton of damage, but I really don’t see them reliably making killing blows. Because of this and my more agressive play style, I’m really having trouble envisioning where they really fit in... it’s hard to be agressive with something that just kinda wants to sit in the back, but I could see it being an awesome support to an agressive close in warlord. Maybe a regia or fortis might be really fun maniples with one dropped in.

 

So running one around with a melta would be fun and might throw someone off guard, but I just see it being a fire magnet (like a warlord) and your loosing a lot of the advantage of its carapace weapon... idk, it just kinda fills a weird roll.

Edited February 23, 2020 by The boater

[Mandragola]

Those are pretty much my exact thoughts. I think the fundamental issue is that there's no really good Reaver arm weapon to pair up with a quake cannon. Volcano cannons aren't great and laser blasters are inaccurate. 

 

The fun reaver arms for me are meltas, gatlings and close combat weapons. These all seem happier on an actual Reaver titan, which is a lot cheaper and a fair bit faster. Laser blasters are a fair bit better on a Reaver too. And it can have a good shield-stripper on its carapace, allowing the melta to actually hit armour quite a lot.

 

A quake warlord will almost always have missiles on its roof. Those combo perfectly as both want to be far away. The other arm can have either a bellicosa or a second quake cannon, if you want to keep things really cheap. I just don't see that synergy for the Warbringer's arms and carapace gun.

 

I think you could be right about laser blaster and gatling with quake. The thing there is that the guns are all pretty cheap. It's no great loss if the gatling is out of range or the quake has -1 to hit. You're trying to get to within 16" but you're in no rush to do so. And both arm guns are respectable shield-strippers, which increases your chances of getting to fire the quake cannon at something. And this is a relatively good load-out for scoring killing blows as well, with two guns that can deliver targeted shots - at least in theory.

 

I think that a bellicosa might actually be significantly better for a Warbringer than a quake cannon. You want your warbringer killing things and a good bellicosa hit is certainly better at starting that process than a quake cannon is. And it has no penalties to hit up close.

 

My vague plan as Astorum is therefore to run a double-volcano and quake Warbringer that sits way at the back. It'll ideally be my Princeps Seniores and take Swift Killer as its trait. The other one will have a Bellicosa, gatling and either laser or Melta. I'm very torn on which is best, and there's also the double-gatling option to consider (and then probably dismiss). Anyway it'll set off war marching forwards with my Reavers, probably not taking orders much of the time. At least two of the Reavers in the maniple will get melee weapons and at least two will take melta cannons.

 

It should be a pretty capable battlegroup to be honest. It's pretty durable with five proper battle titans at 1750. I get a decent number of activations too. It's definitely nice to be able to war march without pushing my reactor at all on one Reaver per turn.

 

Edit: The new MIU link stratagem might be one way to go with Warbringers. You either have two of them and run one forward, or pair a long-range Warbringer with a Reaver. Then if the Reaver can get within 16" and the Warbringer stays far away, you can take the best modifiers on all your guns. The best option might be to have a far-away Warbringer firing accurate laser blaster shots and a close-in one firing accurate quake shells. I think this could work for my Astorum guys. The long-range guy could even have the reactor to go for shieldbane on his laser blasters.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Mandragola

[1ncarnadine]

Any thoughts on Lysanda and Oberon? I’ve been meaning to do a Loyalist Titan Legion for a while now, but I keep coming back to the Traitors and their more polarizing options... These two both have schemes I really like, though.

 

For Lysanda, Patience Beyond Measure is definitely their big trick. Their second trait is pants but everything else looks solid. If you’re generally going to be stuck deploying first and going second, you probably want to 1) have more activations and 2) have a well-rounded list that is hard to take advantage of in deployment, right? Which leads me to think they want to be Warhound-heavy? Their stratagem wants you to be close to objectives too, and Warhounds have the mobility to ensure that you are when you trigger it. Just so long as long as you’re getting Retrieval/Vital Cargo.

 

Oberon’s rules look good for Warhounds, too. Armored Phalanx is a clearly a bonus for squadrons (and Fortis maniples), and command bonuses are nice when your base roll is a 5+. I just don’t know how to feel about Strategiser.  If an opponent brings a 3 point stratagem too, then you’re just SOL. Though there’s a lot of mind games that could end up playing out with this in a regular group, especially if you’re picking the Princeps trait with the +1 strat point.

[The boater]

Mandragola: honestly I really just don’t see a good spot for it. Like the reason a quake or volcano warlord is scary is cause by the time your small stuff is close your shields are likely gone and then it’s open to it’s arm weapons, but god help the warbringer that gets anything but a warlord within 9 in of it. I just think I really don’t like having it’s star weapon on its carapace.

 

But I love the model, so I’ll try to make it work anyway

[Mandragola]

Any thoughts on Lysanda and Oberon? I’ve been meaning to do a Loyalist Titan Legion for a while now, but I keep coming back to the Traitors and their more polarizing options... These two both have schemes I really like, though.

 

For Lysanda, Patience Beyond Measure is definitely their big trick. Their second trait is pants but everything else looks solid. If you’re generally going to be stuck deploying first and going second, you probably want to 1) have more activations and 2) have a well-rounded list that is hard to take advantage of in deployment, right? Which leads me to think they want to be Warhound-heavy? Their stratagem wants you to be close to objectives too, and Warhounds have the mobility to ensure that you are when you trigger it. Just so long as long as you’re getting Retrieval/Vital Cargo.

 

Oberon’s rules look good for Warhounds, too. Armored Phalanx is a clearly a bonus for squadrons (and Fortis maniples), and command bonuses are nice when your base roll is a 5+. I just don’t know how to feel about Strategiser.  If an opponent brings a 3 point stratagem too, then you’re just SOL. Though there’s a lot of mind games that could end up playing out with this in a regular group, especially if you’re picking the Princeps trait with the +1 strat point.

 

I think I like Lysander. The traits aren't huge, but +1 to hit is nice. I think they want quick titans that can still fire reasonably far, so they can actually fire on turn 1. Reavers are probably a good option. The Vengeful Leader Princeps trait is great for Warhounds in particular. Mantle of Responsibility is actually a pretty good upgrade too, making it very likely that you'll pass command checks. These guys are pretty solid really. The one thing they're not great for is corridor arcs, which are very unlikely to have any enemy units in them at the start of the game.

 

Oberon's -1 to damage rolls ability is clearly great for Warhounds, Fortis and Regia maniples. This does come with the major penalty that friendly titans are inside your shields already if they happen to wildfire or suffer magazine explosions.

 

 

Mandragola: honestly I really just don’t see a good spot for it. Like the reason a quake or volcano warlord is scary is cause by the time your small stuff is close your shields are likely gone and then it’s open to it’s arm weapons, but god help the warbringer that gets anything but a warlord within 9 in of it. I just think I really don’t like having it’s star weapon on its carapace.

 

But I love the model, so I’ll try to make it work anyway

 

You're right. Giving your most powerful gun a corridor arc and a minimum range (assuming it's supposed to have the carapace rule, which isn't written on the card) is a big issue. It ends up being not a great platform for Reaver arm guns or Warlord arm guns - which don't particularly complement each other. It would actually be far better if it could have a sunfury or macro gatling.

 

That said, it'll be reasonably easy to get stuff in its corridor arc. You do have 2/3 turns, unlike a Warlord, and it'll be in a battlegroup with a fair number of activations. I think this is another reason I prefer the Ruptura maniple to the Warhound-based one. Warhounds and Warbringers both want to move last but Reavers are much more flexible, with great fire arcs.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Mandragola

[The boater]

Ha, I didn’t notice the carapace rule wasn’t on the card for it. Though I’m guessing that’s a mistake. If not, that changes up the game for them a little. Being able to put pie plates on targets close to them would allow them to be much more aggressive. Especially against warhounds and knights...

[Mandragola]

True, but I'm about 90% sure it's a mistake. After all if there's one gun in AT that looks like it should have a minimum range, it's the Quake cannon on a Warbringer.

 

Presumably the Bellicosa will be designed to face more or less directly forward, not just firing off into space. Even the quake cannon's elevation looks like it would fire a shell quite a lot of miles into the distance.

[BadDice0809]

Quick rules inquiry.

On the Fureans Machine Rage special rule it states to treat blanks on the reactor dice as "trigger for awakening their Titans Machine Spirit." It references page 43 in the main rules. On page 43 in the main rules, it states that a blank face means no heat, while also saying that if the Machine Spirit symbol is rolled, advance the reactor one space. In the Fureans rules, it does NOT state treat a blank as a Machine Spirit- only as Trigger for awakening...

Long short of this is, does a Fureans titan advance the reactor when they roll a blank, or only take the Command Check for awakening the machine Spirit? Will Fureans titans always gain heat whenever they push?

If the Machine Rage rule said "a blank counts as a Machine Spirit roll" there would be no discussion here- you advance. But the rule went out of it's way to seemingly use inconsistent language.

I have been playing it as you only take the test, but at my last game the other interpretation was brought to my attention. I cant find any info about it elsewhere.

Any opinions here? This is the biggest AT forum I know of. Thanks in advance.

[Sherrypie]

Triggers the spirit, does not raise heat. Their thing is animalist unpredictability, not burning down.

[BadDice0809]

Triggers the spirit, does not raise heat. Their thing is animalist unpredictability, not burning down.

Do you know of any rules that specifically say "this roll counts as a Machine Spirit" or "rolling X counts as Y?"

Not that I don't appreciate the response. I was just hoping for a textual argument, not an analogy based one (even though I totally agree).

[Marshal Loss]

Neil Cook (Forge World Studio member) has gone on record in the AT18 FB group stating that the blank does not cause heat. But in terms of a textual argument, you pretty much already handled it. Seems clear enough to me.

[Mandragola]

I actually had a sort of argument about this at the weekend. One of my Fureans opponents insisted that his titans did get hot when they rolled a blank and I said they didn't. We opted to roll for it and I "lost" so they did get hot for that game.

 

I feel like I've seen something more conclusive about this. Is it in the FAQ?

[Sherrypie]

 

Triggers the spirit, does not raise heat. Their thing is animalist unpredictability, not burning down.

Do you know of any rules that specifically say "this roll counts as a Machine Spirit" or "rolling X counts as Y?"

Not that I don't appreciate the response. I was just hoping for a textual argument, not an analogy based one (even though I totally agree).

Okay, pedantry time:

 

Like you said, on page 43 the reactor die is defined and the results given tell us that the act of rolling a Machine Spirit symbol advances the reactor while a blank does not. That is the main reason for heat, so far so good. Next page talks about a scenario where the Machine Spirit symbol was rolled, not about awakening in general, when it talks about first raising the heat and then making the Command check (since otherwise these two paragraphs together would mean two heat, which makes no sense at all. Thanks natural language logic.) This strongly implies then that the heat is tied to the roll, which in turn triggers the Machine Spirit but is not necessarily the same thing, meaning that there can be other ways to trigger the spirit (like Fureans have). Fureans rules say they trigger the Machine Spirit, not that it counts as if a Machine Spirit symbol was rolled, so getting the heat rise from that requires reading something into the rules that is not there.

 

While I do appreciate GW could always write clearer rules, this seems reasonably straightforward.

[Sherrypie]

Also, yes, there are lots of "counts as rules" like DoM stragem War of Fates (page 78) that says "any d6 roll of 1 counts as 6".

[Mandragola]

The rules for AT are pretty vague at times and this is just one example of that. The risk is therefore that rules queries can become long conversations and derail threads.

 

I think maybe we should have a thread for rules queries. This isn’t really meant to be it – instead focusing on tactics. I think the current issue has been dealt with as much as possible.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Any takes on the Knight Household Battleforce? The FLGS has one on the shelves, and I'm wondering how it'd work alongside the new starter box (either as a whole force or just a few of the knights as and when).

[Fajita Fan]

It's a good deal if you get it as MSRP or below.  

[Mandragola]

The knight household box is good in that it gives you all the knights you’ll ever need to run alongside a titan battlegroup. It’ll give you about half the knights you’ll need for a full household army.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I'll add it to my to-do list then.

[Fajita Fan]

The best thing about Questoris and Cerastus is how quick they go together, the Acastus is in a billion pieces but there weren't hardly any mold lines other than a lot of vents to clean up.  If you're a stickler for paint jobs keep the arms separate for painting, especially the Cerastus shields.  If you can magnetize the gun arms it would really help you out tactically.