Principia Titanicus

[Mandragola]

I looked briefly at some stats on shieldbane in the first post. My conclusion was that it's basically bad. The only scenario where a shieldbane weapon drops more shields than an equivalent multi-shot weapon is laser blasters at short range compared with apocalypse missile launchers. The difference is marginal though, and of course you're paying 35 points extra to give a Warlord laser blasters instead of missiles, as well as generating heat.

 

The conclusion was that shieldbane is basically terrible. It's not a winning strategy to field stuff like the "disco reaver" with all-lasers. It's just a way of blowing your own titan up while stripping shields less effectively than you would have done, if you'd just taken gatling blasters or whatever.

 

The basic issue is that generating a point of heat on your titan is almost as bad for you as knocking an extra shield off is bad for the target. And shieldbane only affects one roll in six, so the chances are you're gaining heat and making no difference at all. In the risk/reward calculation you're looking at a near-guarantee of harm vs actually a pretty small chance of making any difference. Usually, that's a waste of your time.

 

Shieldbane isn't completely useless. I think you can do it if your own titan is in good shape and you really need the target's shields to go down. Essentially, while I don't think it's something you should build for, it does offer weapons like laser blasters another option. It isn't efficient, but in situations where you really need to throw the kitchen sink at a problem, it's there.

 

I'd always see missiles as the default weapon for Warlords. They're so cheap and so useful, and all other weapons have major disadvantages relative to them, as well as advantages. 

 

I get a lot of useage out of paired gatlings. Not so much with the VMBs, though I have used them. The gatlings' S5 and ordnance rule helps it against knights or armour (particularly damaged locations where you're getting a bonus to strength), where the S4 missiles are dramatically less effective. But of course losing your effectively infinite range is painful and can often mean you don't fire on turn 1. You do mostly get to fire though, I find, and when you do the gatlings are better.

 

VMBs are pretty cheap and not a terrible option on a melee warlord that you plan to put on full stride in turn one. They're the best shield-breaker a Warlord can have, but only within their very narrow range band. I think I've concluded that they're not really ever better than either gatlings or missiles would be, so I doubt I'll often take them in future.

I'd always see missiles as the default weapon for Warlords. They're so cheap and so useful, and all other weapons have major disadvantages relative to them, as well as advantages. 

[Sherrypie]

While I mostly agree with the above, there are situations where Shieldbane is rather good to have which are not obvious from the stats alone.

 

Shieldbane is at its best when the enemy is already weak (4+ => 5+ is a real loss in reliability) or in a spot where they are relying on shared shields / Overload Voids. Especially on bigger engines forcing them to sweat if they risk blowing up their VSG's early on can be fun, but depends on your ability to keep up the pressure on the field.

 

In the same vein, sometimes the heat isn't a problem as you get it on those engines that aren't really under fire too much because you have others in the first line that your opponent must deal with first. Aggressive Venator maniples for instance, push doggos forwards and give breathing room for the leader.

 

There's also always a turbolaser spot on the double melee Reaver, which can prime itself to explode once it hits their lines :D

[Mandragola]

I’m having trouble thinking of good loadouts for warlords. Trying to match raw hitting power with the ability to be flexible but also not cost a million points. It seems like a bellicosa should be at least one minimum on each one.

I meant to reply to this, sorry. There are generally two main set ups for Warlords:

• Heavy support armed with bellicosa, quake cannon and apocalypse missiles
• "Brawler" armed with sunfury, macro gatling and either paired gatlings or missiles on the roof.

The support titan is there to break down shields, ruin the day of squadrons of warhounds or banners of knights, and stay relatively safe at the back. It's a solid, reliable performer. Will very often be found on first fire orders to hit a knight banner with a quake shot before it moves, or something like that. This guy will generally b softening up targets by knocking down their shields and blowing holes in their armour with its arm weapons. It won't get too many kills because it can't really do targeted shots. 

 

The brawler is a dedicated engine killer. It's set up with guns designed to work through the three steps needed to wreck an engine, as I set out in the first post of this thread: drop the shields, break a hole in the armour and then put targeted shots into the armour. This engine has a decent chance of killing a Warhound in a single phase, along with pretty much anything else it finds without shields. The basic plan is to hit an unshielded titan with the sunfury and then use targeted shots from the macro gatling to finish it off. 

 

There are loads of other options of course. On the brawler, you could swap either gun for a bellicosa. Bellicosa and sunfury sounds very scary but in my experence it's less good at getting killing blows than the macro-gatling would be. Bellicosa and macro gatling is nice because you've only got one draining weapon, but the bellicosa is very much an "all or nothing" weapon. I do think that bellicosa, macro gatling and missiles makes for a pretty good all-round warlord load out, especially if you want options to hit the enemy at any range.

 

Finally you have the Arioch claw. Sticking one of these on a Warlord is a statement. In missions where the enemy has to advance, and in lots of the narrative missions where you start close to the enemy, a claw can be devastating. It's also amazing against knights to have some kind of counter-punch, though a Warlord is always at risk of being outmanoeuvred. I run mine with a Sunfury and paired gatlings so that it can still shoot things dead when required.

 

Finally, don't forget your ardex defensor guns. They don't always come into effect but sometimes they're really handy. I once finished off a damaged Warhound with these and it then promptly wildfired and shot the head off its squadron buddy. Not bad for a heavy bolter!

 

While I mostly agree with the above, there are situations where Shieldbane is rather good to have which are not obvious from the stats alone.

 

Shieldbane is at its best when the enemy is already weak (4+ => 5+ is a real loss in reliability) or in a spot where they are relying on shared shields / Overload Voids. Especially on bigger engines forcing them to sweat if they risk blowing up their VSG's early on can be fun, but depends on your ability to keep up the pressure on the field.

 

In the same vein, sometimes the heat isn't a problem as you get it on those engines that aren't really under fire too much because you have others in the first line that your opponent must deal with first. Aggressive Venator maniples for instance, push doggos forwards and give breathing room for the leader.

 

There's also always a turbolaser spot on the double melee Reaver, which can prime itself to explode once it hits their lines

This is all true. Basically shieldbane does have its uses. Essentially you're damaging yourself (because heat = damage) in exchange for damaging the enemy. There are times when you can afford to do this or when you badly need to hurt something, so it's useful to have the option. But it should be understood as a risky choice used when necessary, not the primary method for shield breaking. You need to bring VMBs, gatlings and apocalypse missile launchers to do the majority of the work.

[Sherrypie]

Which is fine, given that the Shieldbane weapons anyway live in the middle of proper shield breakers (volume of fire, gatlings etc.) and armour crackers (high strength, plasma etc.). Better range than most dakka weapons, if perhaps slightly overpriced for their usually middling to okay performance.

[depthcharge12]

Thanks for the analysis there both of you :)

 

It’s getting harder and harder to justify the points for laser blasters when you could just save the points, take missiles/vmb, and put the points into something nastier to pen armor.

 

I’ll have to try out your Gatling blaster trick Mandragola. I’m a big fan of the macro blaster especially in aesthetics so that’s all good there.

[Mandragola]

Yeah the price is the issue for me. I think that laser and gatling blasters are worth roughly the same amount. I do use laser blasters on Reavers though, especially in Ferrox maniples, where having 3 accurate S9 attacks up close is pretty serious. Overall I think it's probably better to have a laser blaster and carapace VMB/apocalypse than to have a gatling blaster and turbo lasers on the roof. You get an extra S8 shot and the VMB's rapid trait makes it better against shields... though the gatling's S5 and ordnance rule make it better against armour and knights.

 

I've only tried laser blasters on a Warlord once though, and I wasn't much of a fan. Basically paying 50 points for a gun with a corridor arc and the carapace rule looks very questionable, as you'll pretty often miss your chance to fire it. I might be biased in favour of shorter-ranged guns due to playing Astorum though. I can generally get into range fairly quickly. Other Legios might find that they're further away and with slightly cooler reactors, meaning that the 32" range on laser blasters is useful, and the heat from Shieldbane is manageable.

 

If we get more knight armies around the place then lasers will be more useful. It's easy to do no damage at all to knights with VMBs and apocalypse missiles but lasers will tend to hurt them, at least a bit.

[depthcharge12]

Astorum does have that movement ability which I didn’t account for. However, Fureans does have the ability to fire again with a single weapon for heat, so it might be worth it to push up the board aggressively and then double fire either the Gatling or the plasma.

 

I don’t think I’d risk double maximal fire after pushing the reactor (though it would be funny to get a free shot from awakening the machine spirit when moving in the turn prior) but the target would likely be weak enough to target with S8 plasma or S7/5 Gatling for a kill shot.

[Mandragola]

Those are all good points. It shows that there's not really a universal correct answer to list building. Some set ups make more sense for one Legio than they do for another. Fureans probably wants to take the biggest possible proportion of their battlegroup within a single maniple to maximise the effect of Offensive Surge. As Fureans I think I'd want to have as many meltas and plasma weapons as possible, paired up with rapid fire weapons like VMBs and gatlings.

 

I'd avoid using anything draining for offensive surge. Take those guns if you want but probably only fire them once. You don't want to gain 3 heat by firing a draining gun twice with offensive surge, whether it's for shieldbane or a volcano cannon. But a single point of heat to fire a VMB twice and strip a target's shields off could well be worth it. If the shields go down to the first shot then you can fire your plasma gun or melta twice instead. And of course draining weapons have a high chance of giving you machine spirit rolls. Even though you can decide what happens, it still tends to mean your gun doesn't fire - or at least not as accurately.

 

I'm not sure if offensive surge means it's less of a sacrifice to take a melee weapon. It kind of is, because you could have a Warlord fire its sunfury twice, replicating the effect of a fully-loaded brawler. But then you'd probably have quite a hot titan, so you'd struggle to run about quickly - which is essential for a melee engine. The standard macro gatling and sunfury load-out is ideal though. It's already seriously dangerous but giving it a second shot with either arm, or the shield-stripper on the roof, makes it murderous.

[noigrim]

Yes gatling and bolter are always better, if you want something with range and/or strength volcanos plasmas and meltas are far better

 

IMO warlord with missiles and palsmas is top dog, you got shield stripping, targetting and high strength for dealing with knights

Edited July 8, 2020 by noigrim

[Fajita Fan]

I wish Vulcans on a Warlord didn’t have minimum range, that would make the range band feel better to me.

[Warsmith Uveron]

Okay. So Iam still digesting this thread, its really good and talks about alot of things that don't get touched on much. Anyway..

 

I love Tubo Lasers desteoyers as carpace weapons on my warlords and reavers. Yeah I agree that shieldbane is a bit of a trap, but.. it has its use.

 

But on my warlord they bring a High Strength, long range gun that supports my plasma and volcano set up. Against a Titan using it on shield Bane mode is great for removing the last few shields from an enemy engine. Even at the cost of a bit of heat. If the enemy has lost its shield its a good weapon for making the last target shot to follow up on damage created by the volcano and Plasma.

 

Finaly it also excels itself in fighting knights. Shieldbane also hits Iron Shields so its useful when picking any knights that survive the Volcano Cannon.

[Mandragola]

That's a really interesting set up Uveron. I might not have given turbo lasers enough consideration. I've been considering using them on my support Warlord instead of missiles. The engine currently lacks anything for targeted shots (except at S4) so the turbo lasers might be useful. It would be better against knights too, though to be honest if knights are in your warlord's corridor arc they're already in big trouble.

 

I think shieldbane is basically a question of risk vs reward. How well can your titan handle the heat it generates and how much of a difference does it make to the target's shields? The carapace guns on a Warlord get a decent number of shots, so there's a reasonable chance your target will actually fail a save or two that it would have passed without shieldbane, and it has a good reactor. 

 

I've seen people using shieldbane on a warhound's turbo lasers (or with multiple guns on a Reaver) putting their reactors into the orange and blowing out their own shields as a result. This is clearly not recommended. A single turbo laser is likely to get just one hit on the target, so the -1 save modifier is very unlikely to even matter.

 

So essentially I think the bigger your titan is, the more likely it is that shieldbane could be a good idea. 

[Sherrypie]

Counterpoint: Power Transfer allows you to take energy from your shields instead of the reactor, which makes Warhounds immune to the 1/6 chance of overcooking if they are in a position where they aren't under attack. I sometimes utilize a twin-turbolaser Hound as an opportunistic sniper in the backlines, where it is not really being bothered but can fully contribute to the battle from afar. Works especially well in a Venator maniple where you can snipe those annoying final shields off with Shieldbane to trigger extra melta shots from the leader. Since Coordinated Strikes have no range limit, it is also a good enabler for confusing pincer maneuvers with more aggressive dakkahounds up the board.

[Warsmith Uveron]

Mandragola = Yeah. Shieldbane on a warhound is kinda odd. I do have a dual tubo laser hound I use as a 'Snipper' as the S8 gun on a flank and part of a combined attack can become really powerful and can make targeted attacks, unlike the plasma.. but I know its a bad game if I have to start pushing the reactor for shieldbane.

 

Sherrypie: The issue with powertransfer is that its easyer to vent plasma than restore shields, and you have less shields than plasma..

[Sherrypie]

Sherrypie: The issue with powertransfer is that its easyer to vent plasma than restore shields, and you have less shields than plasma..

Sure, as it should be given it is something else than the "normal" way of doing it. But that's why I pointed out that said laser-Hound will hang at the back utilizing the range of the lasers so as to limit the issues raising from lost shields.

[Mandragola]

The optional rules for power transfer and the 2+ void save are major buffs for Warhounds. I don't actually tend to use them, so I've not factored them in. But yes, it's obviously a lot safer for a warhound to draw power from its shields rather than its reactor.

[Warsmith Uveron]

Oh and while iam on my why I love TurboLasers soapbox. I also love upgrading them with maximal Fire though stratagems. Although you cannot guarantee which guns going to get the upgrade a S10 36inc gun is great.

[depthcharge12]

Something I wonder if it was intentional or forgotten - Arioch power claws do not have their included Vulcan mega bolter profile.

 

I’d be more willing to take the claw with the VMB as it would go great on Mandragola’s Brawlord build (plasma/Gatling blasters).

[Warsmith Uveron]

Something I wonder if it was intentional or forgotten - Arioch power claws do not have their included Vulcan mega bolter profile.

 

I’d be more willing to take the claw with the VMB as it would go great on Mandragola’s Brawlord build (plasma/Gatling blasters).

 

The official word is that it is part of the weapon profile. 

 

I personaly have been trying to use the Mournival Event pack rules that includes a profile for the VMB and a few other weapon choices. 

[Sparika]

I just received and built my Ordo Sinister Warlord. Any thought or feedback on it? Which other weapon would give it ?

[Mandragola]

I just received and built my Ordo Sinister Warlord. Any thought or feedback on it? Which other weapon would give it ?

I've been meaning to write something about the Psi Titan. There was actually a thread about it a while ago.

 

The good news is that it comes with a sunfury sprue, with a plasma gun and claw. Build it a right-handed claw because that's what it comes with, but magnetise it. You'll often want to use the Sunfury.

 

Covid (and my laziness in actually building the thing) has meant I haven't fielded my Psi-titan yet. But looking at the thing's rules, and having had quite a lot of experience running non-psychic Warlords, I think there are a lot of reasons to use a gun instead of the claw. And also to think that the Sunfury is a good option for that gun.

 

Firstly, the psychic powers it uses instead of orders mostly prevent a Psi-Titan from moving. You can make an explosion far away or nearby, and you can do an improved version of repair orders. These all prevent moving (or alternatively shooting, if you repair). You only move when you do the quickening, and then you fire a gun... so bring a gun, or preferably a selection of guns to suit different situations.

 

Note that there's no equivalent of full stride so a Psi-titan can never move in the combat phase, which seriously limits its ability to move upfield. You'd rarely want to forgo shooting the Sinistramanus of course, but you be in enough of a hurry that full stride looked like the best option. Tough, you can't do it!

 

Heat management for a Psi-titan is less of an issue because it will almost never use its reactor for movement. It'll either stand still or use the quickening, and move fast for free. The exception is if it moves after repairing, but at least it shouldn't be too hot in that situation.

 

However you do need your reactor to power the Sinistramanus and your shields. A Psi-titan is going to be shot at, so those rerolls will be required, and you obviously want to be firing that death ray at people.

 

There are thee load-outs I'd propose, as follows:

 

Artillery: If you're standing still you obviously aren't going to be doing a lot with a claw. In fact I think there's a decent case to be made for giving you titan missiles and a quake cannon, dropping the big blast power every turn. This is also a good way to look after your investment by keeping your titan safe... and it's pretty boring. Thing is, this set up is still good for using the quickening on. The option of firing missiles at targets with shields or quake shells at things without them is great. You'd also have no heat management issues to worry about. There's even the option of standing a shield generator asset next to it, which is well worth considering for such an expensive model. Another good thing about this option is that it makes it very difficult for the enemy to move around, due to all the quake effects going off everywhere. This helps with the fact that the titan itself hardly moves and you'll almost certainly have fewer activations than the enemy. I think this might be the most effective option, and it's also the cheapest. I think it definitely makes sense to go for missiles here because you'll probably struggle to point your carapace weapons at anything, what with standing still all day.

 

Brawler: Take sunfury and either missiles, gatlings, or possibly laser blasters on the roof. Use Quickening and get into midfield to start killing things. This has quite a bit better damage output than the artillery option but it's a bit more vulnerable to having fewer activations. I think I like this option best myself in terms of actually using the thing, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's the best option.

 

Default: You could do worse than take the claw and Lasers. After all, the point of the Psi-titan is really its psychic powers and Sinistramanus, not its other weapons. You have a couple of good options for if you want to move around with the Quickening - lasers to shoot stuff or the fist if it comes close enough. If you only have one gun then the Laser Blasters aren't a bad option, as they can be used in most situations and against most targets. I'd probably stay clear of using shieldbane though, because you are simply not allowed to overheat a Psi-titan and blow yourself up.

 

I don't think a Macro-gatling is all that good on a Psi-titan. Better to shoot a target with a Sunfury first and follow up with the Sinistramanus, which can automatically hit the same location.

 

The Bellicosa is the worst choice of all, in my opinion. It'll make you overheat and it doesn't have much synergy with the Sinistramanus. I think a quake cannon is always a better option.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Mandragola

[noigrim]

I'd go with carapace gatlings or missiles plus either gatling or plasma in the right

[Fajita Fan]

 

 

 

Artillery: If you're standing still you obviously aren't going to be doing a lot with a claw. In fact I think there's a decent case to be made for giving you titan missiles and a quake cannon, dropping the big blast power every turn. This is also a good way to look after your investment by keeping your titan safe... and it's pretty boring. 

I bought another quake just for mine. 

[Mandragola]

Yeah I think I might make a quake cannon for mine out of the spare warbringer one I’ve got. Might be good to have the option on the warbringer itself though. I’ve considered the big cannon the Telemon has as well.

[Fajita Fan]

Yeah I think I might make a quake cannon for mine out of the spare warbringer one I’ve got. Might be good to have the option on the warbringer itself though. I’ve considered the big cannon the Telemon has as well.

Dunno if I posted this from awhile back but it could totally work.