GW reveals Shock Assault!

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Here's a list idea: DG + Red Corsairs

 

DG would bring 10x blightlords and 20x possessed, both of which benefit a lot from shock assault. Probably heavy support from Plagueburst crawlers too.

 

Red Corsairs would bring berzerkers in rhinos and MSU reaper squads for chaff clearing and cheap CP.

 

Both sides could bring a bunch of characters and armored heavy support. Dark Hereticus Psykers from the CSM side can still buff the DG units, but not vice versa. DG would want a caster or two for buffing the possessed and/or the blightlords.

 

The idea would be that on turn 1, you present 0 soft targets. Infantry is either in a rhino or screened by them or in reserve. Everything else is t8 armor. You spend your turn 1 moving up. Shield the possessed with Cloud of Flies. Clear screens with shooting from heavy support. Turn 2 you will be in charge range vs most types of enemies, especially with warp time on the possessed and advance+charge on the berzerkers. Blightlords deepstrike and melt something with combi-plasma. They get cloud of flies now that the possessed are going into melee.

 

This probably won't be a tournament winning list, but it would be a different sort of playstyle from what people are used to, and quite hard to kill. Berzerkers, Possessed, and blightlords are all happy to be in melee with pretty much anything else in the game. And you'll probably have some Princes in there too. Melee knights might be tough.

 

Think it could work now? Right now I'm not clear on if DG can use the MoP. It appears they can't use the Daemonkin specialist detachment?

 

EDIT: Note that due to points, you'd probably have to choose either the blightlords OR possessed, which is fine.

[Cheex]

I'll be interested to see how this pans out. I find the biggest problem with my berzerkers isn't so much how hard they hit; it's how to survive when the enemy falls back and the rest of the army shoots them up, so I'm not sure this is going to make much of a difference.

 

But then again, having up to 13 attacks per berzerker (across three activations) is kind of tasty. And it means that a Host Raptorial bomb will be even nastier than before...

[Leonite]

This could be really useful with mobile units, yes, but also characters. Take a Chaos Lord on a Bike, give him a Thunderhammer...

[Closet Skeleton]

Is this the old true grit rule? Seems very similar. This, bolter discipline and the relative cheap points of CSM's, maybe another points cut and I could live without defences if we can put out dmg instead. 

 

Opposite, True Grit you use bolters as pistols in close combat as long as you didn't charge.

 

This is more like the generic +1 attack for charging from 3rd-7th ed that marine units were used to expecting but everyone lost.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I'll be interested to see how this pans out. I find the biggest problem with my berzerkers isn't so much how hard they hit; it's how to survive when the enemy falls back and the rest of the army shoots them up, so I'm not sure this is going to make much of a difference.

 

But then again, having up to 13 attacks per berzerker (across three activations) is kind of tasty. And it means that a Host Raptorial bomb will be even nastier than before...

The slower or more transport dependent CSM melee units have decent output, but issues with survival. The faster ones (Raptors, bikes, etc.) have problems with CC output. This helps the latter FAR more than the former.

 

It does also help the former in an odd way because the 3 WE Berzerkers that actually make it to a second charge from a squad of 10 will be throwing out 4 attacks apiece with their chainaxes and it's sort of like an extra Berzerker survived.

 

Another possible way it can help units that had survivability issues is by allowing them to use their cheaper weapon options more and maintain the same level of output, using the saved points to pack more bodies in.

 

Still, the fast units that have struggled once they get there will be loving this.

 

A final, odd type of unit that gets help? Marching marine gunlines like Noise Marine blob, Plage Marine phalanx, Ru-Brick, etc. because charging them suddenly means that you have to reckon with a harder hitting counter attack.

 

We'll see how it all shakes out, but I'm encouraged.

[WarriorFish]

I've been mulling this over and while I think that more needs to be done it's a welcome addition. You'll always get the problem that it washes out against other Marines but it should make a difference elsewhere and hopefully give that first round of combat a bit more punch. As mentioned a bit of a disincentive for some to charge could be useful sometimes, even if it's more likely you'll just be getting more hits in

 

For those of us with combat armies it's a nice boon, though we'd accept anything that made combat life a bit easier... This is especially good for me as I've a fair few Marines that try to hit things in games, and have some Chosen and Raptors (hitting things varieties) plans in the pipeline so this extra bit of motivation is great

[BrainFireBob]

This change anyone's opinion of Haakon World Claimer?

[Doom Herald]

I really do hope we see upgraded Legion Traits (and Renegade Traits) with it. It would be great if I could actually play Crimson Slaughter as Crimson Slaughter. Still, more attacks means I'm more likely to get that potential 1CP per turn, I guess.

[Doom Herald]

As far as Warp Talons, this would definitely make them more worth trying. I understand that getting shot is the problem for them, but Nurgle AL or NL can get an easy -2 to being shot between Miasma and trait/strat. If we see Alpha Legion get updated to be inline with Raven Guard, that's even better.

[Stofficus]

I really do hope we see upgraded Legion Traits (and Renegade Traits) with it. It would be great if I could actually play Crimson Slaughter as Crimson Slaughter. Still, more attacks means I'm more likely to get that potential 1CP per turn, I guess.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that improved legion traits for CSM is a hard negatory. 

 

I doubt they'll even get patched to work on vehicles until the next CA at the absolute earliest. 

[Marshal Loss]

Seriously pissed at the disparity in treatment between our two codex releases here.

[Sonoftherubric21]

This change anyone's opinion of Haakon World Claimer?

I already use Haarken but I think that the fact that a Black Legion Raptor squad (x15) can put out 60 swings with a 7 inch re-rollable charge opens up some definite possibilities. 

 

That is basically a guaranteed charge on turn 2 (maybe 3 if you wait) into something that may need to be ground up, toss a vets, grind the heck out of whatever you land next to. 

[Ghorgul]

Agreeing with the GreaterChickenofTzeentch, this is significant boost to Warp Talons. Of course Raptors also benefit in almost equal level volumewise, but the main thing to realize is that 1.5 multiplier of weak/mediocre is still weak or mediocre, you just have 50% more of it. Naturally if list is kitted around the big blobs of Raptors one can increase the multipliers more in CP-efficient manner thanks to the big blobs.

 

Seriously pissed at the disparity in treatment between our two codex releases here.

 

Honestly, I'm not surprised at all that this happened. Nothing new under the sun to be exact.

[Excessus]

 

I'll be interested to see how this pans out. I find the biggest problem with my berzerkers isn't so much how hard they hit; it's how to survive when the enemy falls back and the rest of the army shoots them up, so I'm not sure this is going to make much of a difference.

 

But then again, having up to 13 attacks per berzerker (across three activations) is kind of tasty. And it means that a Host Raptorial bomb will be even nastier than before...

The slower or more transport dependent CSM melee units have decent output, but issues with survival. The faster ones (Raptors, bikes, etc.) have problems with CC output. This helps the latter FAR more than the former.

 

It does also help the former in an odd way because the 3 WE Berzerkers that actually make it to a second charge from a squad of 10 will be throwing out 4 attacks apiece with their chainaxes and it's sort of like an extra Berzerker survived.

 

Another possible way it can help units that had survivability issues is by allowing them to use their cheaper weapon options more and maintain the same level of output, using the saved points to pack more bodies in.

 

Still, the fast units that have struggled once they get there will be loving this.

 

A final, odd type of unit that gets help? Marching marine gunlines like Noise Marine blob, Plage Marine phalanx, Ru-Brick, etc. because charging them suddenly means that you have to reckon with a harder hitting counter attack.

 

We'll see how it all shakes out, but I'm encouraged.

 

 

It's gonna be nice to try it out for sure. Chosen could dish out some good damage there too with this. 

 

 

 

I really do hope we see upgraded Legion Traits (and Renegade Traits) with it. It would be great if I could actually play Crimson Slaughter as Crimson Slaughter. Still, more attacks means I'm more likely to get that potential 1CP per turn, I guess.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that improved legion traits for CSM is a hard negatory. 

 

I doubt they'll even get patched to work on vehicles until the next CA at the absolute earliest. 

 

 

I agree that any legion trait changes would come with the autumn CA at the earliest, anything earlier than that would be a positive surprise for sure. 

 

 

Seriously pissed at the disparity in treatment between our two codex releases here.

 

Welcome to playing CSM. :P It's been like this for a long time. 

[Ketzer]

I hear many World Eaters players cheer. But I don't like this boost to be honest. It just adds up to some berserker overkill (yes, there is one such thing as overkill)

Like someone said before... 8 berserkers with Chainsword, Axe, Champion with E-Fist means 5 E-Fist, 28 Axe and 8 Sword attacks - in total 8 Fist, 42 Axe and 16 Sword. Throw in something like votlw, a prayer or an unfluffy pys-power and watch those knights melt in a single turn.

That is just too much. And this from someone who fields 3 Squads of those guys.

[Marshal Loss]

 

Seriously pissed at the disparity in treatment between our two codex releases here.

 

Welcome to playing CSM. It's been like this for a long time. 

 

 

I've probably been doing this longer than you

 

Just feels like one step forward two steps back yet again. They made great strides this year all undone within a few months. Very disappointing and not something we as CSM players should accept as the norm; GW needs to hear that this isn't appropriate. It can get tiresome but apathy doesn't help anybody, least of all us.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I have an inkling that GW is going to update at least our Legion Traits via Errata after the new C:SM drops, given that ours are largely ports on the corpse-worshippers'. I mean, they have to publish a new one anyway to grant us Shock Assault in an official capacity. It makes sense, heads off outcry, and maintains balance.

[Kraken]

Let's be honest, the Codex CSM 2.0 was a damn joke and this new SM release only rub it in even more.

THIS is what we should have gotten with the updated Codex, improved legion traits, shock assault (they already knew that rule was coming) and the Black Legion rules in a supplement instead of being half-assedly stuck in Vigilus Ablaze.

But no, because it's unthinkable for GW that any army could steal their thunder from the sacred Space Marine. Gotta be sure to always hype them up over anyone else.

So instead we got a bloody useless new codex that was obsolete the moment it was released and didn't fix anything.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Oh please. The Noctilith Crown is not a joke. New Obliterators are not a joke. T5 move-and-shoot Havocs are not a joke. New Apostle powers are not a joke.

 

And before you go any further down the track of "we should have gotten the new traits!" just wait until the FAQ drop on release day. Like I said before, I'm confident Chaos will get buffed Traits too.

[MegaVolt87]

I wonder if the AL trait will match the new RG one that was previewed. I would be surprised if the IW trait changed, I would love re-roll wounds to units in cover instead of against buildings, but that seems a bit OP since we negate cover saves. Or maybe re-rolls of morale tests from casualties taken by enemy shooting, instead of shooting up buildings. Less powerful than the 30k auto pass morale from enemy shooting casualties. I feel that would fit well, the building part feels redundant, that part of our current trait could easily be a tactic for us instead. 

[Kythnos]

I wonder if the AL trait will match the new RG one that was previewed. I would be surprised if the IW trait changed, I would love re-roll wounds to units in cover instead of against buildings, but that seems a bit OP since we negate cover saves. Or maybe re-rolls of morale tests from casualties taken by enemy shooting, instead of shooting up buildings. Less powerful than the 30k auto pass morale from enemy shooting casualties. I feel that would fit well, the building part feels redundant, that part of our current trait could easily be a tactic for us instead.

Since the Fists lost the building part of their chapter tactics, I am sure the same will be true for the IW. The question is when...

[Scourged]

Oh please. The Noctilith Crown is not a joke. New Obliterators are not a joke. T5 move-and-shoot Havocs are not a joke. New Apostle powers are not a joke.

 

And before you go any further down the track of "we should have gotten the new traits!" just wait until the FAQ drop on release day. Like I said before, I'm confident Chaos will get buffed Traits too.

Very much agreed. Those units and their upgrades are nice to have, for sure. But they're not a reflection on our 2.0 codex. Those units and their datasheets were and are available separately, many of which is attributes to shadowspear or vigilus.

 

CSM '2.0' was a consolidation of datasheets, and a cultist nerf.

 

New marines are in the same boat. Many/most of their new units have datasheets outside of the book, and will continue to be so. But...

 

Their 2.0, however, is a near-full rewrite. It truly is a new version, well beyond that of a consolidation. That's the the difference many of us are bothered by.

 

I would love to share your confidence, but I don't. We know we are getting Shock Assault. That's confirmed. But we have no (not yet) confirmation that our update will include anything else. And that uncertainty is what engenders the unrest felt by many. It feels hauntingly familiar to last edition.

 

I am very happy with the updates and refresh to our faction. It's been amazing. But what we shared with the loyalists was a ruleset that had become outdated thanks to our early release. Ours did not get fixed. Theirs, however, is. And at best, we will get a patchwork fix to traits. It's just a case of "feels bad."

 

I would promise that had we not gotten a '2.0' book, many of us would not be feeling as strongly as we do about this release.

[RapatoR]

I don't believe we will get anything besides the Angels of Death. However I do think that CSM codex 2.0 with updated stuff to match the marines is not a matter of 'if' but 'when'. And cosidering they have to release shadowspear minis separately at some point I am willing to bet it will be sooner than peter.

[Guzzlrr]

Oh please. The Noctilith Crown is not a joke. New Obliterators are not a joke. T5 move-and-shoot Havocs are not a joke. New Apostle powers are not a joke.

 

And before you go any further down the track of "we should have gotten the new traits!" just wait until the FAQ drop on release day. Like I said before, I'm confident Chaos will get buffed Traits too.

 

Oblits are cool but expensive. Ive went from using them in my list as a Regular addition (for Years) to straight up not taking them.

 

Was their change a buff when you now consider their new price point ? right now with how expensive they are combined with the RNG (if you get a poor Damage-roll/s) they're also a Massive CP drain for that turn for you to get good use out of them.

 

for me, now I don't like them. yes they bring the pain. but they're too dangerous a target to not focus on and for their cost i cant justify it. 

 

 

Edit :

 

I am Quite Butt hurt about the Level of update thier 2.0 is getting.  and echo many sentiments here but been playing chaos since 2006 so i suppose im used to this.

 

That Legion Supplement in 7th was everything i wanted from chaos in 40k and we had it for such a short time. for me it was really perfect. the 8th codex was a real step back in terms of originality every Faction felt unique and i loved it.

 

i think this brings it back, sorta but for Space Marines. i can only hope that supplements are on the way that may correct or fix or even give us that feeling back again, because for me that as the . 

 

the legions Supplement is the reason i didn't switch to Eldar LOL

[Doom Herald]

Supposedly Space Marines are getting supplements. Ive seen other pages saying they are but i cant find the official statement. Chaos probably will too. Hopefully when they put the Shadow Spear models into single model production.