GW reveals Shock Assault!

[Excessus]

Supposedly Space Marines are getting supplements. Ive seen other pages saying they are but i cant find the official statement. Chaos probably will too. Hopefully when they put the Shadow Spear models into single model production.

 

Yeah, the loyalists are, but CSM? I wouldn't bet on it.

[MegaVolt87]

 

Supposedly Space Marines are getting supplements. Ive seen other pages saying they are but i cant find the official statement. Chaos probably will too. Hopefully when they put the Shadow Spear models into single model production.

 

Yeah, the loyalists are, but CSM? I wouldn't bet on it.

 

 

BL and renegades got nice stuff in Vigilus. Either we get it sooner with dedicated supplements, via next campaign books or even just Index Astartes in WD. Since we have new mini's, GW won't let the faction sit too long with the rather anemic rules we have compared to SM's. GW knows there aren't enough crazy people like me who still get CSM models even if the rules are rubbish.   So we wait like we always have. 

[Iron_Within]

Next week there will be a PDF release for non mainline Space Marines, including Chaos Space Marines giving them an update to bring them in line. I in no way expect them to honour any parity between Space Marines and Chaos; my suspicion is we'll get a PDF doc explaining how the "Shock Assault" works for our factions and the is it. If we are lucky they will update the Legion Traits to state that all CSM units (save Cultists) benefit from Legion traits, but I doubt in all forms they will update the Legion Traits to reflect the new state of business.

I want to be wrong, I really want to be wrong, but (having just checked) having been playing Iron Warriors since 1996(!) I am not confident they will do anything to update the bad Legion traits.

I just feel sorry for Words Bearers, they have the worst abilities in the game I think.

[Khornestar]

Assuming the rule allowing all units in the detachment chapter tactics applies to legion traits as well, advance + charge will be a lot of fun to play with. I guess mostly for certain units, since infantry and dreads could do it already.

 

Rhinos sound like a great candidate. Disembark passengers, then more easily get into charge range to soak up overwatch and tie up the target.

 

Blood Slaughterers are also neat, with their auto-6” advance.

 

Daemon engines, as well, though they could already do this with a stratagem in the Soulforged Pack. Saves CP, I s’pose.

 

Of course, most legion traits are already borderline bad or useless, so allowing rhinos +1 leadership and reroll morale is just rubbing salt in the wound.

[RapatoR]

Guys, it was always plainly obvious that the new dex was 1.5 rather than 2.0. And given that the e-version was updated for free I always suspected this one wasn't to last very long. Instead of grumbling, I would psy close attention to what is in the new codex as it shows what is to come for us. O mean we already know their chaplains will have prayers top si there is clearly some back and forth.

[Prot]

You know I hate to say this but these changes you guys are talking about.... they gotta sell models or it’s probably not happening.

 

I would love to see a revised version of chapter traits, but this is all about selling new Astartes models and rule books. If these releases were in reverse order, then yes there would be plenty of reason to fix stuff.

 

Honestly with that being the case I was originally worried Chaos wouldn’t see the assault rule so I’m happy they gave that to CSM.

[MegaVolt87]

You know I hate to say this but these changes you guys are talking about.... they gotta sell models or it’s probably not happening.

 

I would love to see a revised version of chapter traits, but this is all about selling new Astartes models and rule books. If these releases were in reverse order, then yes there would be plenty of reason to fix stuff.

 

Honestly with that being the case I was originally worried Chaos wouldn’t see the assault rule so I’m happy they gave that to CSM.

 

We got bolter drill, stands to reason we would get shock assault. I know what you mean, but I am a very big believer in if you build it the people will come. I am actually quite curious to see if there will be extra weapons options for the venom crawler since its going to be a stand alone kit at some point. 

[Prot]

 

You know I hate to say this but these changes you guys are talking about.... they gotta sell models or it’s probably not happening.

I would love to see a revised version of chapter traits, but this is all about selling new Astartes models and rule books. If these releases were in reverse order, then yes there would be plenty of reason to fix stuff.

Honestly with that being the case I was originally worried Chaos wouldn’t see the assault rule so I’m happy they gave that to CSM.

 

We got bolter drill, stands to reason we would get shock assault. I know what you mean, but I am a very big believer in if you build it the people will come. I am actually quite curious to see if there will be extra weapons options for the venom crawler since its going to be a stand alone kit at some point.

I did think of this. I actually have a list I run 3 Venoms. I started thinking about Oblits ( I also have shelved them for the foreseeable future, and I tried really hard to make them click, but the final nail was the clarification on redoing weapon stats for Cacaphony). Oblits also haven’t been released so I started thinking.... there’s very little reason people will put money out for those kits if they remain unchanged. I think the current GW is selling models. I feel like the old GW was more, as you say, build and they will come.

 

I’m not trying to be negative, just realistic. I look for improvements only when they gotta move some plastic.

[Doom Herald]

I just feel sorry for Words Bearers, they have the worst abilities in the game I think.

*Cries salty Crimson Slaughter Tears.

 

At least they get Veterans of the Long War.

[Trevak Dal]

And their legion tactic is And they Shall know no fear.

 

*Golf clap*

 

Oh wait, they can summon daemons better.

[Iron_Within]

If I'm going to guess at what the changes to Legion Traits are going to be (if any) then I reckon these are what they are going to be (This is not wishlisting this is predictions):

 

1. New Renegade Chapters/Thousand Sons/Death Guard - No changes other than applying to all units now.
2. Iron Warriors: Ignore Cover (as current) and 6++ FNP (rolling the Legion Strat "Iron Within Iron Without" into the main abilities, alternatively, treat -1AP as AP0, less likely though)
3. Night Lords: -1 morale (as current) and -1 to hit for infantry in cover if 12" away (rolling In midnight clad into the main abilities, alternatively, always ignore minus' to hit aka Night Vision)
4. Alpha Legion: As Raven Guard, exactly the same.
5. Emperors Children: Always Strike First and ???? (no clue on this one)
6. World Eaters: +1 to charge (on top of Shock assault so +2 on the charge) and 5++ FNP against Mortal Wounds)
7. Black Legion: No Change (yes really)
8. Word Bearers: Never lose more than one Marine to Morale and something else (no idea, maybe re-roll charges ala BT)

Again, I don't think any of them are going to happen, I think we're getting shock assault and maybe Legion traits applying to all units, but if they do update the Legion traits I'd go with this as my guess.

[Prot]

My Thousand Sons Rhino's would be so excited to receive the chapter tactics! Teehee.... now if I can only get Ahriman to teach them how to smite. :D

[Kraken]

1. Black Legion: No Change (yes really)

This makes me sad.

[Leonite]

As a Word Bearer, I'd like an updated Tactic.

 

I won't hold my breath but it would be nice.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Everyone should just cool their power-packs a tad and give it a bit. 

I don't think GW is forgetting us. Shock Assault alone helps us *TREMENDOUSLY* as our codex (Main chaos dex in this case) is most certainly a "melee" oriented dex. So this bonus alone is disproportionately helpful for us. I struggle to think of units this won't help out and often mainstays of marine codexs (terminators, our cult units, our HQs are almost all melee oriented, raptors, warp talons, possessed, even basic foot-sloggers substantially benefit in big ways in our book) 

 

That being said: I agree with some of the above that we will *eventually* see our traits buffed. I think its all but a guarantee in the future. how far into the future? Thats another question all together. Even with these "new" traits Ill gladly take the fight to any loyalist list they can muster. They'll hurt more, but we still (IMHO at least) have the better codex overall. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Now then, if you want to discuss the Combat Doctrines leaving us behind...I'm willing to entertain that opinion for sure.

[RolandTHTG]

Honestly, I don't think we'll get PDF additions/revisions other then adding Shock attack and Bolter Drill. 

I think we'll see one of World Eaters/Emperor's children get their independent codex before the end of the year, and the other early next year. 

Then, we'll finally see a New CSM codex with updated legion traits, with all the god-tied legions removed.  

[Julius Firefocht]

Hmm... I am not too worried about Combat Doctrines. Think about it, assuming they are playing against a Chaos Space Marine army, realistically what are the Imperial Marines going to shoot at with each Doctrine?

 

Devastator Doctrine: Daemon engines and Lord Discordant, all of which have a 5+ invul save that make the increased AP totally irrelevant. Chaos Knights can always Rotate Ion Shield, and if you brought in Predators... well, you will swiftly learn to leave them at home after all your Predators die on turn 1 to Las Fusil Eliminators.

 

Tactical Doctrine: 30-man Cultist blobs and Chaos Space Marines. So the Imperial Marines want to shoot at Cultist blobs that are immune to morale and cheap as chips with their pretty AP-2 bolt rifles? Be my guest lol, just don't feel bad when the Cultists return. And return again. As for Chaos Space Marines.. honestly I am not sure why any Chaos players would bring in Chaos Space Marines in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It just does not make any sense.

 

It only becomes worse if they shoot at daemons like plaguebearers with invul saves. Yeah sure, once again be my guest.

 

Assault Doctrine: Any Imperial Space Marine unit (other than TH/SS Terminators) that wants to engage Abaddon, Daemon Princes and Khorne Berserkers in melee combat are welcome to try. Challengers will be beaten. Survivors will be beaten again.

 

So nope, it is my opinion that Chaos players have little to fear from Combat Doctrines. Certain Xenos armies like Drukhari are unaffected by Combat Doctrines as well, so I would urge everyone to calmly assess these new rules and units, and not get carried away by the impact of the initial reveal.

 

Leave that to the Imperial Space Marine fanboys who think they are now masters of the tabletop, we have been fighting the Long War for long enough to see the truth. 

[RapatoR]

Now then, if you want to discuss the Combat Doctrines leaving us behind...I'm willing to entertain that opinion for sure.

While they certainly seem powerful, I am not that hyped about them. Compared to what the GSC got as their "trademark" ability, this seems to be pretty straightforward and seems to have less "fun factor" tied to it.

 

 

Curious what will GW come up with as a "trademark" ability, because even with "undivided" legions and renegades, I am hard pressed to find some overarching theme that could be easily translated to "trademark ability"...

[Maschinenpriester]

Considering that we just got a new codex i feel a bit annoyed about the doctrines (to me they look really powerful) and also about the discrepancy in the legion traits. It feels allready like there is allready going to be a big gap in the power level once this comes out in my opinion. I am just hoping now for a proper EC codex, or a PDF which balances stuff out a bit. I also hope that Land Raiders will get that assault vehicle rule.

[helterskelter]

Hmm... I am not too worried about Combat Doctrines. Think about it, assuming they are playing against a Chaos Space Marine army, realistically what are the Imperial Marines going to shoot at with each Doctrine?

 

Devastator Doctrine: Daemon engines and Lord Discordant, all of which have a 5+ invul save that make the increased AP totally irrelevant. Chaos Knights can always Rotate Ion Shield, and if you brought in Predators... well, you will swiftly learn to leave them at home after all your Predators die on turn 1 to Las Fusil Eliminators.

 

Tactical Doctrine: 30-man Cultist blobs and Chaos Space Marines. So the Imperial Marines want to shoot at Cultist blobs that are immune to morale and cheap as chips with their pretty AP-2 bolt rifles? Be my guest lol, just don't feel bad when the Cultists return. And return again. As for Chaos Space Marines.. honestly I am not sure why any Chaos players would bring in Chaos Space Marines in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It just does not make any sense.

 

It only becomes worse if they shoot at daemons like plaguebearers with invul saves. Yeah sure, once again be my guest.

 

Assault Doctrine: Any Imperial Space Marine unit (other than TH/SS Terminators) that wants to engage Abaddon, Daemon Princes and Khorne Berserkers in melee combat are welcome to try. Challengers will be beaten. Survivors will be beaten again.

 

So nope, it is my opinion that Chaos players have little to fear from Combat Doctrines. Certain Xenos armies like Drukhari are unaffected by Combat Doctrines as well, so I would urge everyone to calmly assess these new rules and units, and not get carried away by the impact of the initial reveal.

 

Leave that to the Imperial Space Marine fanboys who think they are now masters of the tabletop, we have been fighting the Long War for long enough to see the truth.

2+/3+ is better than 5++, on greater flat damage platforms you need to fail less for gribblies to die. High enough AP to force invulnerable saves should not be trifled with, or accepted as a good outcome.

Deleted cultist units can't come back, you can't autopass morale when you're not there.

No one will be engaging in close combat when one of the new units can effectively lead away one of yours into a better firing avenue or force you to take another route.

Add into that some of the new chapter tactics which combined make iron hands potentially better than rubrics, and then trying to play catch the pigeon with white scars etc etc we cannot just dismiss the new stuff out of hand.

 

As a faction we will have to look at effective synergies and apply them appropriately, being casually dismissive will lose you games

[Raktra]

> Assuming that slightly better chainswords means people will suddenly throw basic combat units at Abaddon and Daemon Princes.

 

tAcTiCs

[Iron Father Ferrum]

@Julius, I'm not worried so much about the Doctrines being aimed at us, I'm more miffed that Chaos does not get some something similar or equivalent. Because I'm firmly convinced we won't.

[Maschinenpriester]

One could argue that our stuff got buffed with the second codex. but everything got more expensive (havocs etc.). But here everything got buffed for free. I think even intercessors with potential ap-2 can be scary now...

[MegaVolt87]

Yeah, not being able to switch back to a previously used doctrine is no big deal for a drawback.