GW reveals Shock Assault!

[Julius Firefocht]

 

Hmm... I am not too worried about Combat Doctrines. Think about it, assuming they are playing against a Chaos Space Marine army, realistically what are the Imperial Marines going to shoot at with each Doctrine?

 

Devastator Doctrine: Daemon engines and Lord Discordant, all of which have a 5+ invul save that make the increased AP totally irrelevant. Chaos Knights can always Rotate Ion Shield, and if you brought in Predators... well, you will swiftly learn to leave them at home after all your Predators die on turn 1 to Las Fusil Eliminators.

 

Tactical Doctrine: 30-man Cultist blobs and Chaos Space Marines. So the Imperial Marines want to shoot at Cultist blobs that are immune to morale and cheap as chips with their pretty AP-2 bolt rifles? Be my guest lol, just don't feel bad when the Cultists return. And return again. As for Chaos Space Marines.. honestly I am not sure why any Chaos players would bring in Chaos Space Marines in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It just does not make any sense.

 

It only becomes worse if they shoot at daemons like plaguebearers with invul saves. Yeah sure, once again be my guest.

 

Assault Doctrine: Any Imperial Space Marine unit (other than TH/SS Terminators) that wants to engage Abaddon, Daemon Princes and Khorne Berserkers in melee combat are welcome to try. Challengers will be beaten. Survivors will be beaten again.

 

So nope, it is my opinion that Chaos players have little to fear from Combat Doctrines. Certain Xenos armies like Drukhari are unaffected by Combat Doctrines as well, so I would urge everyone to calmly assess these new rules and units, and not get carried away by the impact of the initial reveal.

 

Leave that to the Imperial Space Marine fanboys who think they are now masters of the tabletop, we have been fighting the Long War for long enough to see the truth.

2+/3+ is better than 5++, on greater flat damage platforms you need to fail less for gribblies to die. High enough AP to force invulnerable saves should not be trifled with, or accepted as a good outcome.

Deleted cultist units can't come back, you can't autopass morale when you're not there.

No one will be engaging in close combat when one of the new units can effectively lead away one of yours into a better firing avenue or force you to take another route.

Add into that some of the new chapter tactics which combined make iron hands potentially better than rubrics, and then trying to play catch the pigeon with white scars etc etc we cannot just dismiss the new stuff out of hand.

 

As a faction we will have to look at effective synergies and apply them appropriately, being casually dismissive will lose you games

 

 

I am not casually dismissing the new stuff, I just do not see them having the impact or weight that you seem to place on them.

 

Even with all the new toys and Combat Doctrine that the loyalists have, after careful assessment I doubt they will impact our top tier game plan much. What do the very best Chaos lists run? Some variations of the following: 

 

- Abaddon plus 30-man cultist blobs

- Ahriman and two 1KSon Daemon Princes with wings

- A large blob of daemons (Horrors or Plaguebringers, maybe a Bloodletter bomb if you feel like gambling on charge distance rolls)

- plus assorted threats in the form of Lord Discordants or a Daemon Primarch perhaps.

 

Can anyone honestly tell me that these new loyalist toys and conditionally increased weapon AP are going to change the playstyle of this list drastically? I am not being glib here, if anyone has an idea on how the new toys will force drastic changes, please feel free to speak up. I would welcome a new perspective on the game.

 

Anyway, my personal take is this.

 

At the end of the day, offensive abilities can only carry the Imperial Marines that far, as long as Imperial Marines stay at high point cost with a 3+ armor save and 2 wounds, the faction as a whole will die to any form of respectable firepower thrown their way. This is the reason why the best Chaos lists pack as much point-efficient bodies on the board as possible (cultist, daemons), and also the reason why Imperial Soup lists do the same (Imperial Guard). Notice that neither Chaos Marines nor Imperial Marines are seen much in both lists, because they are not tough nor efficient.

 

Bodies on the board are the problem you present to your opponent, the firepower your opponent throws back at you is merely the solution. Not the other way round.

 

If this new codex added some kind of defensive ability or lowered the point costs of Imperial Marines across the board, I would have sat up and took notice because it would mitigate the greatest weaknesses of Imperial Marine armies, which are their fragility and lack of bodies. Which is why I can agree that the Iron Hands or even the nerfed Raven Guard may prove troublesome, but the high cost per model/lack of bodies will still be a major weakness to exploit.

 

As long as these 2 weaknesses are not fixed, most factions already have the tools to deal with the Imperial Marines and their new toys. My prediction is that Imperial Soup will still contain a minimal amount of Marines in their army list in favor of more efficient and numerous units, but I would love to be proven wrong as it would herald a shift in the game's meta. Let's see how it goes from here.

[Sersi]

If I'm going to guess at what the changes to Legion Traits are going to be (if any) then I reckon these are what they are going to be (This is not wishlisting this is predictions):

 

1. New Renegade Chapters/Thousand Sons/Death Guard - No changes other than applying to all units now.
2. Iron Warriors: Ignore Cover (as current) and 6++ FNP (rolling the Legion Strat "Iron Within Iron Without" into the main abilities, alternatively, treat -1AP as AP0, less likely though)
3. Night Lords: -1 morale (as current) and -1 to hit for infantry in cover if 12" away (rolling In midnight clad into the main abilities, alternatively, always ignore minus' to hit aka Night Vision)
4. Alpha Legion: As Raven Guard, exactly the same.
5. Emperors Children: Always Strike First and ???? (no clue on this one)
6. World Eaters: +1 to charge (on top of Shock assault so +2 on the charge) and 5++ FNP against Mortal Wounds)
7. Black Legion: No Change (yes really)
8. Word Bearers: Never lose more than one Marine to Morale and something else (no idea, maybe re-roll charges ala BT)

Again, I don't think any of them are going to happen, I think we're getting shock assault and maybe Legion traits applying to all units, but if they do update the Legion traits I'd go with this as my guess.

 

For Emperor's Children take the Legion Trait from Traitor Legions. So add either a 6+ FNP or they still get their attacks in melee even if killed before attacking. Both would be rare occurrences given always strike first.  Or just you know make always strike first mean what its says, like the old days.

[BlueBiscuit Raider]

I would be rather upset if they didn't change at all the DG Legion Trait, given how the new Bolter Rule takes away 50% of it's usefulness.

[Kain Mor]

I’m gonna toss my hat on the pile of severely displeased

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I would be rather upset if they didn't change at all the DG Legion Trait, given how the new Bolter Rule takes away 50% of it's usefulness.

I must be missing something. How do bolters invalidate 5+ FNP?

[Gederas]

I would be rather upset if they didn't change at all the DG Legion Trait, given how the new Bolter Rule takes away 50% of it's usefulness.

I must be missing something. How do bolters invalidate 5+ FNP?

I believe he's referring to the Death Guard's 18" Rapid Fire range.

[techsoldaten]

I am not casually dismissing the new stuff, I just do not see them having the impact or weight that you seem to place on them.

 

Even with all the new toys and Combat Doctrine that the loyalists have, after careful assessment I doubt they will impact our top tier game plan much. What do the very best Chaos lists run? Some variations of the following: 

 

- Abaddon plus 30-man cultist blobs

- Ahriman and two 1KSon Daemon Princes with wings

- A large blob of daemons (Horrors or Plaguebringers, maybe a Bloodletter bomb if you feel like gambling on charge distance rolls)

- plus assorted threats in the form of Lord Discordants or a Daemon Primarch perhaps.

 

Can anyone honestly tell me that these new loyalist toys and conditionally increased weapon AP are going to change the playstyle of this list drastically? I am not being glib here, if anyone has an idea on how the new toys will force drastic changes, please feel free to speak up. I would welcome a new perspective on the game.

 

I can honestly tell you playstyles will change dramatically.

 

Played against a 3 Repulsor list the other day. Turn 1, on their own, the Repulsors killed 2x 20 Cultists, 5 CSMs, a Chainlord, a JP Sorcerer, a Bloodmaster and a Deredeo. Turn 2, I dropped Obliterators and 2x 20 Bloodletters, who took a similar beating.

 

The Repulsors have about 40 shots each, most of their guns are AP-, and they can fire their main gun twice as long as they don't move that far. The effective range on their guns is about 36 inches, allowing them to turn the middle of the table into a killzone - goodbye objectives. And now they are getting Chapter Tactics buffs and new units that can infiltrate / screw with deep strikes.

 

These are not good developments for a mid-range army and massed Infantry (Cultists, Bloodletters) is now severely outclassed. I'm not sure what anyone expects to do with Psykers when they can be cheaply countered by Assassins.

 

The challenges I see with this new Codex poses could be summed up as:

 

- Loyalists are now way more points efficient than Chaos. For about 60 points more than a Land Raider, you have a Repulsor with 34 more shots. That's just cruel.

 

- Loyalists now have a so many advantages through gimmicks. Chapter Tactics applying to everything, Angels of Death, it all has me wishing the worst we had to worry about is ATSKNF. Primaris will be winning close fights more often.

 

- Loyalist tanks / walkers are now just bristling with guns. Consider the +1 attack we will be getting on the charge. That doesn't really make a difference when the statistical average shots on Overwatch works out to be 4 or more. Infantry units will lose enough models to offset the additional attacks. Daemon Engines will get tiered.

 

Not sure wishlisting for a new Chaos Codex is realistic. We just got one along with Vigilus Ablaze and I'm sure the rules team is going to be busy with all those supplements. Feels like a new book would be a ways off.

[Julius Firefocht]

 

I am not casually dismissing the new stuff, I just do not see them having the impact or weight that you seem to place on them.

 

Even with all the new toys and Combat Doctrine that the loyalists have, after careful assessment I doubt they will impact our top tier game plan much. What do the very best Chaos lists run? Some variations of the following: 

 

- Abaddon plus 30-man cultist blobs

- Ahriman and two 1KSon Daemon Princes with wings

- A large blob of daemons (Horrors or Plaguebringers, maybe a Bloodletter bomb if you feel like gambling on charge distance rolls)

- plus assorted threats in the form of Lord Discordants or a Daemon Primarch perhaps.

 

Can anyone honestly tell me that these new loyalist toys and conditionally increased weapon AP are going to change the playstyle of this list drastically? I am not being glib here, if anyone has an idea on how the new toys will force drastic changes, please feel free to speak up. I would welcome a new perspective on the game.

 

I can honestly tell you playstyles will change dramatically.

 

Played against a 3 Repulsor list the other day. Turn 1, on their own, the Repulsors killed 2x 20 Cultists, 5 CSMs, a Chainlord, a JP Sorcerer, a Bloodmaster and a Deredeo. Turn 2, I dropped Obliterators and 2x 20 Bloodletters, who took a similar beating.

 

The Repulsors have about 40 shots each, most of their guns are AP-, and they can fire their main gun twice as long as they don't move that far. The effective range on their guns is about 36 inches, allowing them to turn the middle of the table into a killzone - goodbye objectives. And now they are getting Chapter Tactics buffs and new units that can infiltrate / screw with deep strikes.

 

These are not good developments for a mid-range army and massed Infantry (Cultists, Bloodletters) is now severely outclassed. I'm not sure what anyone expects to do with Psykers when they can be cheaply countered by Assassins.

 

The challenges I see with this new Codex poses could be summed up as:

 

- Loyalists are now way more points efficient than Chaos. For about 60 points more than a Land Raider, you have a Repulsor with 34 more shots. That's just cruel.

 

- Loyalists now have a so many advantages through gimmicks. Chapter Tactics applying to everything, Angels of Death, it all has me wishing the worst we had to worry about is ATSKNF. Primaris will be winning close fights more often.

 

- Loyalist tanks / walkers are now just bristling with guns. Consider the +1 attack we will be getting on the charge. That doesn't really make a difference when the statistical average shots on Overwatch works out to be 4 or more. Infantry units will lose enough models to offset the additional attacks. Daemon Engines will get tiered.

 

Not sure wishlisting for a new Chaos Codex is realistic. We just got one along with Vigilus Ablaze and I'm sure the rules team is going to be busy with all those supplements. Feels like a new book would be a ways off.

 

 

 

Hmm triple Repulsors.. I was hoping to counter those in tournaments by using Chaos Knights and Leviathan Dreadnoughts, but yes, I can see how 3 Repulsors can cause problems for pure Chaos Space Marine armies. 

 

Let's wait for new information then. 

[MegaVolt87]

Welp that's a horror story against repulsors. A third Butcher dredeo for me is looking like a smart buy.

[Marshal Loss]

Floating tanks are for tossers. Give me a good old pair of tank tracks any day of the week.

 

On a serious note no, wishlisting for a new CSM book is not realistic (although is anybody really expecting that? most posters seem pretty grounded). Our best hope is to complain consistently and constructively so that GW are forced to throw us a few bones in CA later this year.  Not going to fall prey to optimism because I echo Ferrum's sentiment re: parity in terms of doctrines, etc. Unfortunately for all of GW's stated plan to reestablish Chaos as the dominant villain in 40k, we've been all but kneecapped here, which is a real pity. At least our base rules are reasonably solid.

[Iron_Within]

Looking at the new stuff and the Primaris stuff, I think we can say confidently that it's going to be meta shifting, in local and tournament play. 

I have a passing interest in tournament to see what people are doing but it's not my jam.

In local casual to medium competitive play, it appear that Loyalist Space Marines will be good at putting out massed fire and medium in assault. They appear to be weaker (without First Gen. support) at anti armour.

They're now in fact decent all rounders but not the masters of none. They have a lot of tools in the toolbox now but if they try to fit everything in they'll be mediocre. I actually think massed Primaris infantry will be the way to go, particularly intercessors, e.g. multiple 5 mans Crimson Fists with Intercessor Veterans.

What they currently appear mediocre in is dealing with armour. They're not bad, but they'd rather see infantry over massed armour.

What they lack as well is the same as always, specialism.

Against us. Intercessors are better than Cultists and Marines now (side: I argue that Marines are better than Cultists now for troops, but that's another conversation). But their specialist troops are weaker than ours. Khorne Berzerkers will still blender Primaris even with their new things.

 

So I'm looking at CSM's thinking what will work.

I might be given my Iron Warrior roots away, but

I'm thinking our armour, lots of armour. 

Lord Discordants and Daemon Engines from what I can see at the moment from new marines will be hard for New Marines to deal with. Baleflamers on LD's I'm taking another look at as the damage makes them primaris killers.

A combo I like is Havocs with a 5 man marine squad escort in a Rhino together, I take 2 (2 rhinos, 2 Chain Havocs, 2 Marines). Havocs die easily to New Marines now, especially with -2 AP Bolt Rifles, so the first round of fire you get off with them needs to count. Those havocs will kill 3 units of Primaris when they jump out, support with plas/Combi plas 5 man and you're making a mess. 

Basically threat overload and specialise.

 

Shock Assault on both sides cancel each other out effectively, it would be a case of who can shoot first at the most essential troops. Primaris now have redundancy in their units as their basic unit might now be one of the best in the game.

 

I think Marines are now appearing to be better than Chaos, and that's a shame as CSM Codex reprint now feels like a slap in the face.

 

Against other codexes though? We've gotten a straight buff.

Like I said, I think Cultists are worse than Marines now. I don't think big blobs work but I'm going to address both. 5 man Marines vs 10 man cultists (or 13 if you're wanting equal point comparison) are point for point more efficient now. They're more survivable, as 2+ in cover is better, with a smaller foot print meaning they're easier to hide with an equal rate of fire (bolter drill) with greater strength accuracy. Lastly, they can take a heavy weapon, so they're better backfield objective campers.

 

In blobs. I'm not sure. I'm not convinced Marines are good in blobs, so cannot say, but I've not relied on blob squads for some time as I think in Chaos now they are mediocre. 

[Leonite]

Frankly I'm actually encouraged... but then, I have Hellbrutes to work on sooo.

[techsoldaten]

So I'm looking at CSM's thinking what will work.

I might be given my Iron Warrior roots away, but

I'm thinking our armour, lots of armour. 

Lord Discordants and Daemon Engines from what I can see at the moment from new marines will be hard for New Marines to deal with. Baleflamers on LD's I'm taking another look at as the damage makes them primaris killers.

A combo I like is Havocs with a 5 man marine squad escort in a Rhino together, I take 2 (2 rhinos, 2 Chain Havocs, 2 Marines). Havocs die easily to New Marines now, especially with -2 AP Bolt Rifles, so the first round of fire you get off with them needs to count. Those havocs will kill 3 units of Primaris when they jump out, support with plas/Combi plas 5 man and you're making a mess. 

Basically threat overload and specialise.

 

Yeah, it isn't all doom and gloom but this changes how we think about listbuilding.

 

The question is, if you are going to build a balanced list to fight Loyalists, which Loyalists?

 

This new Codex gives them at least 3 competitive builds that are each very different. Running up the board with beatsticks won't win most battles against any of them. And we will see much more elite infantry instead of soup, Loyalist units are just so much more efficient.

 

For most of 8th, I played a Black Legion gunline with 23 lascannons. It did well until Dark Eldar / Orks / Imperial Knights came along. So I switched to massed Cultists and Bloodletter Bombs, which have been doing well - moreso since Obliterators got buffed.

 

Now this needs to change again. Here's what we need to consider when thinking about Loyalists:

 

- Bikes that can make first turn charges.

 

- Units that can infiltrate and deny deep strikes.

 

- AP- guns on everything with an average range of 30 inches. Tanks / Walkers with enough shots to pose legitimate threats on Overwatch.

 

- Multiple detachments, optimized around Chapter Traits.

 

What I think this means for Chaos: winning armies will involve fewer elite units in favor of spreading offense out over more units.

 

- Daemon Engines will play less than a role than melee Helbrutes. It's too easy for Loyalists to bracket them. Our Distraction Carnifexes need to be cheap.

 

- Massed Infantry will play a more narrow role. We will still need screens but Cultists can't mount an effective offense without saves.

 

- More MSU units overall because that causes opponents to waste shots. Expect to see more 5-man CSM and Noise Marine units. Expect to see more Chaincannons, Plasma and Blastmasters.

 

- Range and Deep Strike synergy is very important. Taking out a 'big' threat from distance to clear the way will be what wins games. Lascannons, Conversion Beamers, etc are now  essential.

 

- Possessed and Terminators are out. Too many cheap Bolter variants that can just drop expensive, multi-wound infantry.

 

- Land Raiders, Predators and Vindicators are out. They are outclassed by their Loyalist equivalents.

 

- Havocs are maybes. T5 doesn't mean much against AP- guns. There's other ways to squeeze lots of big guns into your army.

 

- Chaos Knights are important, but I don't know which ones. Dual Avenger Gatling Cannons might not mean as much anymore.

 

- Psychic... I don't know what to think. It's important to buff but snipers will give them a hard time. Don't build lists that rely on psychic shennanigans, have a plan B.

[Kain Mor]

I wouldn’t be surprised if hellblaster Death Stars came back, at least in casual play. AP -5 on the standard variant with 30” range is just gross.

[BlueBiscuit Raider]

 

I would be rather upset if they didn't change at all the DG Legion Trait, given how the new Bolter Rule takes away 50% of it's usefulness.

I must be missing something. How do bolters invalidate 5+ FNP?

I believe he's referring to the Death Guard's 18" Rapid Fire range.

 

That, and besides DR unfortunately isn't actually part of the DG legion trait, if it were our Hellbrutes and Possessed would be getting it as well. It's just a special rule.

 

There's also the fact that limited as it is the Relentless-like part of our Trait doesn't really have many units to which it applies and that can actually take advantage of it.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

So I'm looking at CSM's thinking what will work.

I might be given my Iron Warrior roots away, but

I'm thinking our armour, lots of armour. 

Lord Discordants and Daemon Engines from what I can see at the moment from new marines will be hard for New Marines to deal with. Baleflamers on LD's I'm taking another look at as the damage makes them primaris killers.

A combo I like is Havocs with a 5 man marine squad escort in a Rhino together, I take 2 (2 rhinos, 2 Chain Havocs, 2 Marines). Havocs die easily to New Marines now, especially with -2 AP Bolt Rifles, so the first round of fire you get off with them needs to count. Those havocs will kill 3 units of Primaris when they jump out, support with plas/Combi plas 5 man and you're making a mess. 

Basically threat overload and specialise.

 

Yeah, it isn't all doom and gloom but this changes how we think about listbuilding.

 

The question is, if you are going to build a balanced list to fight Loyalists, which Loyalists?

 

This new Codex gives them at least 3 competitive builds that are each very different. Running up the board with beatsticks won't win most battles against any of them. And we will see much more elite infantry instead of soup, Loyalist units are just so much more efficient.

 

For most of 8th, I played a Black Legion gunline with 23 lascannons. It did well until Dark Eldar / Orks / Imperial Knights came along. So I switched to massed Cultists and Bloodletter Bombs, which have been doing well - moreso since Obliterators got buffed.

 

Now this needs to change again. Here's what we need to consider when thinking about Loyalists:

 

- Bikes that can make first turn charges.

 

- Units that can infiltrate and deny deep strikes.

 

- AP- guns on everything with an average range of 30 inches. Tanks / Walkers with enough shots to pose legitimate threats on Overwatch.

 

- Multiple detachments, optimized around Chapter Traits.

 

What I think this means for Chaos: winning armies will involve fewer elite units in favor of spreading offense out over more units.

 

- Daemon Engines will play less than a role than melee Helbrutes. It's too easy for Loyalists to bracket them. Our Distraction Carnifexes need to be cheap.

 

- Massed Infantry will play a more narrow role. We will still need screens but Cultists can't mount an effective offense without saves.

 

- More MSU units overall because that causes opponents to waste shots. Expect to see more 5-man CSM and Noise Marine units. Expect to see more Chaincannons, Plasma and Blastmasters.

 

- Range and Deep Strike synergy is very important. Taking out a 'big' threat from distance to clear the way will be what wins games. Lascannons, Conversion Beamers, etc are now  essential.

 

- Possessed and Terminators are out. Too many cheap Bolter variants that can just drop expensive, multi-wound infantry.

 

- Land Raiders, Predators and Vindicators are out. They are outclassed by their Loyalist equivalents.

 

- Havocs are maybes. T5 doesn't mean much against AP- guns. There's other ways to squeeze lots of big guns into your army.

 

- Chaos Knights are important, but I don't know which ones. Dual Avenger Gatling Cannons might not mean as much anymore.

 

- Psychic... I don't know what to think. It's important to buff but snipers will give them a hard time. Don't build lists that rely on psychic shennanigans, have a plan B.

 

Double Battle Cannon Chaos Knights have been proving themselves pretty solid. They get almost the same firepower as the Avengers and can sit outside the effective range of most enemy weapons. They absolutely murder Primaris and are decent against just about anything. My friend's Double BC Knight routinely kills twice its points before it dies.

 

Transports might be more necessary to deal with the sniper threat. Synergizes with our ability to spam combi-weapons and the mentioned switch to MSU and chaincannons, etc.

 

Transports can also act as a moving wall to shelter Apostles/Psykers.

 

MSU allows more frequent use of Grenades, too, and Krak Grenades are useful Primaris killers at the range we'll have to operate.....sometimes without charging because we don't want to trigger certain abilities.

 

Daemon Princes might go back to "good" instead of "must have." A combination of Eliminators, some of the special abilities that boost Stalker bolters (and allow them to target characters), and a few other effects will mean they can't just hop up table and do what they want.

 

Oblits are still useful, but the difficulty just went up. Infiltrators and Incursor mines can cause some issues.

 

Melee Daemon bombs may become less useful for the same reason, and Plaguebearers will lose some of their durability once their modifiers can be made irrelevant. As it is, I'm already seeing Chaos Knights used to handily clear out PB blobs for that reason, so we need to start thinking about something else for mirror matches too.

 

I think that Horrors might be our salvation in the Daemon blob department. Their shooting can get pretty ridiculous.

 

Rubric Marines might be something to consider. Similar firepower to the Primaris infantry, boosted saves against D1 weapons, strong charge denial with Warpflamers. Not sure yet, but might be worth a look. In a TS army, I'd say they will be a necessity because they contain Psykers that can't be sniped and can carry Change Discipline buffs like Weaver and Glamour for when the big guys go down.

 

MSU Plague Marines with Flails/Plasma/Blight Launchers stacked up in Rhinos could be good, especially with Shock Assault powering the Flails.

 

Heldrakes are great at flaming/munching on middleweight Primaris units like Infiltrators and are good at dropping support characters. They can also fly over screens and tie up particular units to keep them from moving up table.

 

Touching on what was said about Helbrutes and Lascannons, there might need to be a return to filling Elite slots with Las/Missile Helbrutes and throwing on things like Prescience and Fire Frenzy. Perhaps the Noctilith Crown is worth a look in this context to both guarantee buffing powers and provide saves.

 

3rd Ed style MSU squads wrapped around Lascannons may become more of a thing. I could see a Battalion of MSU Scourged CSM squads with Las/Combi-Plas and their innate Salamander-like rerolls being interesting for anti-armor.

 

This shift might help us deal with Knights better too, since we can safely "load up" on anti-tank, aware that there will be lots of Primaris in the meta that can also be attacked witht he same weapons. 

 

Anti-Horde will still be necessary and we can always apply it to Marines with the right Stratagems. Bikes with spammed Combi-Bolters and Chainswords seem good for this.

 

Interesting thought exercise.

 

EDIT: One thing I forgot.....ONE large brick of MEQ might still work IF it is layered with buffs to serve as a fire sink and has access to morale control, and there are ALSO smaller units to get things done and spread threat, especially if those small units have transports to protect the buffing characters or some other means of sniper resistance. So Black Legion, Iron Warriors, TS, Death Guard, Alpha, Maybe Night Lords could each take ONE sink unit. If built right, that unit could both soak up enemy shots AND clear out forward-deployed Primaris since it won't have very far to walk before contact. Again, theoretical. We'll see.

[Julius Firefocht]

As a Black Legion player, I am tentatively banking on 3 Leviathan Butcher Cannon Dreads backed by Abaddon for rerolls to hit. With Fire Frenzy those 3 Leviathans will be shooting 64 S8 AP-1 D2 shots per turn.. if that army list goes first against an infantry heavy Primaris force, it will be able to deal massive damage on Turn 1.

 

Then I just need something to reliably kill vehicles and I am more or less set.

 

If Forgeworld models are not allowed, then I am afraid I would have to fall back on support from Chaos Knights. A double AGC Knight and double RFBC Knight will have to provide the firepower support, though that will deviate away from the "pure CSM" army theme. 

 

I am thinking of loading up on as much high strength and multi-damage weapons as I can as a foundation to build on. MSU Chaos Space Marine squads with a Plasma gun and Combi-Plasma might make a return in my list. Heck I am considering bucking the trend and bringing in Slannesh Combi-Plasma Terminators to outright delete 2 enemy units on the turn they arrive from deepstrike. This tactic might prove problematic though, since Primaris Marines have access to units that can deny deepstrike in an area.

 

Another avenue I am thinking of is our ability to shoot twice and fight twice using our strategems. One Helbrute can conditionally shoot twice a turn at the closest target, one Slannesh-marked unit can shoot twice a turn, one Khorne-marked unit can fight twice a turn. Model to model, the Imperial Marine units are more efficient than our units thanks to all the buffs they are getting. but I think one way to even the odds is with our strategems that allow our hard-hitting units to act twice a turn.

 

Along this line of thought, I am looking at the following units for a start:

 

- Leviathan/Deredeo Dreadnoughts

- 10-man Slannesh Terminator Squad with 10 combi-plasma

- 2 or 3-man Slannesh Obliterator Squad

- 10-man Khorne Berserker in a Rhino. Self explanatory.

- 5-man Slannesh Raptors with 2 plasma rifles and 1 combi-plasma.

 

The idea is that since our units are dying to Primaris AP- firepower anyway, we might as well make use of the units and weapons that can kill them effectively in return. And we do it as often as we can by using our Chaos act-twice strategems, namely Fire Frenzy and Endless Cacophony.

 

Yes, the Loyalists can also use "Honour the Chapter" to fight twice, but if GW gives the Loyalists an equivalent to Endless Cacophony to shoot twice with their hyper-efficient units.. well, let's see how it goes then.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

As a Black Legion player, I am tentatively banking on 3 Leviathan Butcher Cannon Dreads backed by Abaddon for rerolls to hit. With Fire Frenzy those 3 Leviathans will be shooting 64 S8 AP-1 D2 shots per turn.. if that army list goes first against an infantry heavy Primaris force, it will be able to deal massive damage on Turn 1.

 

Then I just need something to reliably kill vehicles and I am more or less set.

 

If Forgeworld models are not allowed, then I am afraid I would have to fall back on support from Chaos Knights. A double AGC Knight and double RFBC Knight will have to provide the firepower support, though that will deviate away from the "pure CSM" army theme. 

 

I am thinking of loading up on as much high strength and multi-damage weapons as I can as a foundation to build on. MSU Chaos Space Marine squads with a Plasma gun and Combi-Plasma might make a return in my list. Heck I am considering bucking the trend and bringing in Slannesh Combi-Plasma Terminators to outright delete 2 enemy units on the turn they arrive from deepstrike. This tactic might prove problematic though, since Primaris Marines have access to units that can deny deepstrike in an area.

 

Another avenue I am thinking of is our ability to shoot twice and fight twice using our strategems. One Helbrute can conditionally shoot twice a turn at the closest target, one Slannesh-marked unit can shoot twice a turn, one Khorne-marked unit can fight twice a turn. Model to model, the Imperial Marine units are more efficient than our units thanks to all the buffs they are getting. but I think one way to even the odds is with our strategems that allow our hard-hitting units to act twice a turn.

 

Along this line of thought, I am looking at the following units for a start:

 

- Leviathan/Deredeo Dreadnoughts

- 10-man Slannesh Terminator Squad with 10 combi-plasma

- 2 or 3-man Slannesh Obliterator Squad

- 10-man Khorne Berserker in a Rhino. Self explanatory.

- 5-man Slannesh Raptors with 2 plasma rifles and 1 combi-plasma.

 

The idea is that since our units are dying to Primaris AP- firepower anyway, we might as well make use of the units and weapons that can kill them effectively in return. And we do it as often as we can by using our Chaos act-twice strategems, namely Fire Frenzy and Endless Cacophony.

 

Yes, the Loyalists can also use "Honour the Chapter" to fight twice, but if GW gives the Loyalists an equivalent to Endless Cacophony to shoot twice with their hyper-efficient units.. well, let's see how it goes then.

Leviathans can't Fire Frenzy. That stratagem specifies "Helbrute" as in the unit entry, not "HELBRUTE" as in the keyword.

 

Additionally, the Butcher is going to get a bit less useful now. Salamanders ignore AP-1 and the "Indomitable" custom chapter trait is probably going to be popular, reducing the impact of that -2 Leadership. Not going to be a useless gun by any means, especially against expensive troops where you don't count on AP and just want any kind of failed rolls (which will be enough reward for all the effort). However, it will lose some of its versatility.

 

Iron Hands Repulsor Executioners will also be a problem, as they will always act on double wounds, will shrug wounds on 6's and can fire their turrets twice if moving slow. Ultramarine Eliminators with Las Fusils that can move and shoot while under Tactical Doctrine (or any Eliminators that want to use their bonuses from the Sarge to offset movement) and have boosted saves from cover will also be annoying. Leviathans, Deredeos, and Contemptors don't last long against that kind of firepower if they're trying to stand back and shoot and in the case of the Eliminators, you'll waste tons of shots when you fire back because they're such small units.

 

Not saying the big dreads will be useless, just that spamming them as an "anchor" may be risky and that going double-gun might not be as good as gun/cc so you can close against certain threats.

[Julius Firefocht]

 

As a Black Legion player, I am tentatively banking on 3 Leviathan Butcher Cannon Dreads backed by Abaddon for rerolls to hit. With Fire Frenzy those 3 Leviathans will be shooting 64 S8 AP-1 D2 shots per turn.. if that army list goes first against an infantry heavy Primaris force, it will be able to deal massive damage on Turn 1.

 

Then I just need something to reliably kill vehicles and I am more or less set.

 

If Forgeworld models are not allowed, then I am afraid I would have to fall back on support from Chaos Knights. A double AGC Knight and double RFBC Knight will have to provide the firepower support, though that will deviate away from the "pure CSM" army theme. 

 

I am thinking of loading up on as much high strength and multi-damage weapons as I can as a foundation to build on. MSU Chaos Space Marine squads with a Plasma gun and Combi-Plasma might make a return in my list. Heck I am considering bucking the trend and bringing in Slannesh Combi-Plasma Terminators to outright delete 2 enemy units on the turn they arrive from deepstrike. This tactic might prove problematic though, since Primaris Marines have access to units that can deny deepstrike in an area.

 

Another avenue I am thinking of is our ability to shoot twice and fight twice using our strategems. One Helbrute can conditionally shoot twice a turn at the closest target, one Slannesh-marked unit can shoot twice a turn, one Khorne-marked unit can fight twice a turn. Model to model, the Imperial Marine units are more efficient than our units thanks to all the buffs they are getting. but I think one way to even the odds is with our strategems that allow our hard-hitting units to act twice a turn.

 

Along this line of thought, I am looking at the following units for a start:

 

- Leviathan/Deredeo Dreadnoughts

- 10-man Slannesh Terminator Squad with 10 combi-plasma

- 2 or 3-man Slannesh Obliterator Squad

- 10-man Khorne Berserker in a Rhino. Self explanatory.

- 5-man Slannesh Raptors with 2 plasma rifles and 1 combi-plasma.

 

The idea is that since our units are dying to Primaris AP- firepower anyway, we might as well make use of the units and weapons that can kill them effectively in return. And we do it as often as we can by using our Chaos act-twice strategems, namely Fire Frenzy and Endless Cacophony.

 

Yes, the Loyalists can also use "Honour the Chapter" to fight twice, but if GW gives the Loyalists an equivalent to Endless Cacophony to shoot twice with their hyper-efficient units.. well, let's see how it goes then.

Leviathans can't Fire Frenzy. That stratagem specifies "Helbrute" as in the unit entry, not "HELBRUTE" as in the keyword.

 

Additionally, the Butcher is going to get a bit less useful now. Salamanders ignore AP-1 and the "Indomitable" custom chapter trait is probably going to be popular, reducing the impact of that -2 Leadership. Not going to be a useless gun by any means, especially against expensive troops where you don't count on AP and just want any kind of failed rolls (which will be enough reward for all the effort). However, it will lose some of its versatility.

 

Iron Hands Repulsor Executioners will also be a problem, as they will always act on double wounds, will shrug wounds on 6's and can fire their turrets twice if moving slow. Ultramarine Eliminators with Las Fusils that can move and shoot while under Tactical Doctrine (or any Eliminators that want to use their bonuses from the Sarge to offset movement) and have boosted saves from cover will also be annoying. Leviathans, Deredeos, and Contemptors don't last long against that kind of firepower if they're trying to stand back and shoot and in the case of the Eliminators, you'll waste tons of shots when you fire back because they're such small units.

 

Not saying the big dreads will be useless, just that spamming them as an "anchor" may be risky and that going double-gun might not be as good as gun/cc so you can close against certain threats.

 

 

I just checked my codex, you are right regarding Fire Frenzy and its interaction with the Helbrute unit. Luckily I bounced the idea here first, it would suck to make this mistake in a tournament!

 

And yup, you are absolutely correct regarding the Salamander's ability to ignore AP-1 weaponry. I am aware that I am taking my chances with the Leviathans, and sometimes we just have to hope that we don't get an unfavorable matchup. 

 

Actually all the issues you brought up are big reasons why I am also considering using Chaos Knights for my fire support. The various strategems and access to 4+ invul save goes a long way towards making Chaos Knights way tougher than the big Dreads, while the easy access to multishot, high strength, AP-2 D2 weapons really helps. Unfortunately there is nothing preventing Imperial players from bringing their own Knights to even things out, and if I end up using a large number of Chaos Knights, then I really should not be hanging out in this forum anymore as I am no longer playing a Chaos Space Marine army lol

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

As a Black Legion player, I am tentatively banking on 3 Leviathan Butcher Cannon Dreads backed by Abaddon for rerolls to hit. With Fire Frenzy those 3 Leviathans will be shooting 64 S8 AP-1 D2 shots per turn.. if that army list goes first against an infantry heavy Primaris force, it will be able to deal massive damage on Turn 1.

 

Then I just need something to reliably kill vehicles and I am more or less set.

 

If Forgeworld models are not allowed, then I am afraid I would have to fall back on support from Chaos Knights. A double AGC Knight and double RFBC Knight will have to provide the firepower support, though that will deviate away from the "pure CSM" army theme. 

 

I am thinking of loading up on as much high strength and multi-damage weapons as I can as a foundation to build on. MSU Chaos Space Marine squads with a Plasma gun and Combi-Plasma might make a return in my list. Heck I am considering bucking the trend and bringing in Slannesh Combi-Plasma Terminators to outright delete 2 enemy units on the turn they arrive from deepstrike. This tactic might prove problematic though, since Primaris Marines have access to units that can deny deepstrike in an area.

 

Another avenue I am thinking of is our ability to shoot twice and fight twice using our strategems. One Helbrute can conditionally shoot twice a turn at the closest target, one Slannesh-marked unit can shoot twice a turn, one Khorne-marked unit can fight twice a turn. Model to model, the Imperial Marine units are more efficient than our units thanks to all the buffs they are getting. but I think one way to even the odds is with our strategems that allow our hard-hitting units to act twice a turn.

 

Along this line of thought, I am looking at the following units for a start:

 

- Leviathan/Deredeo Dreadnoughts

- 10-man Slannesh Terminator Squad with 10 combi-plasma

- 2 or 3-man Slannesh Obliterator Squad

- 10-man Khorne Berserker in a Rhino. Self explanatory.

- 5-man Slannesh Raptors with 2 plasma rifles and 1 combi-plasma.

 

The idea is that since our units are dying to Primaris AP- firepower anyway, we might as well make use of the units and weapons that can kill them effectively in return. And we do it as often as we can by using our Chaos act-twice strategems, namely Fire Frenzy and Endless Cacophony.

 

Yes, the Loyalists can also use "Honour the Chapter" to fight twice, but if GW gives the Loyalists an equivalent to Endless Cacophony to shoot twice with their hyper-efficient units.. well, let's see how it goes then.

Leviathans can't Fire Frenzy. That stratagem specifies "Helbrute" as in the unit entry, not "HELBRUTE" as in the keyword.

 

Additionally, the Butcher is going to get a bit less useful now. Salamanders ignore AP-1 and the "Indomitable" custom chapter trait is probably going to be popular, reducing the impact of that -2 Leadership. Not going to be a useless gun by any means, especially against expensive troops where you don't count on AP and just want any kind of failed rolls (which will be enough reward for all the effort). However, it will lose some of its versatility.

 

Iron Hands Repulsor Executioners will also be a problem, as they will always act on double wounds, will shrug wounds on 6's and can fire their turrets twice if moving slow. Ultramarine Eliminators with Las Fusils that can move and shoot while under Tactical Doctrine (or any Eliminators that want to use their bonuses from the Sarge to offset movement) and have boosted saves from cover will also be annoying. Leviathans, Deredeos, and Contemptors don't last long against that kind of firepower if they're trying to stand back and shoot and in the case of the Eliminators, you'll waste tons of shots when you fire back because they're such small units.

 

Not saying the big dreads will be useless, just that spamming them as an "anchor" may be risky and that going double-gun might not be as good as gun/cc so you can close against certain threats.

 

 

I just checked my codex, you are right regarding Fire Frenzy and its interaction with the Helbrute unit. Luckily I bounced the idea here first, it would suck to make this mistake in a tournament!

 

And yup, you are absolutely correct regarding the Salamander's ability to ignore AP-1 weaponry. I am aware that I am taking my chances with the Leviathans, and sometimes we just have to hope that we don't get an unfavorable matchup. 

 

Actually all the issues you brought up are big reasons why I am also considering using Chaos Knights for my fire support. The various strategems and access to 4+ invul save goes a long way towards making Chaos Knights way tougher than the big Dreads, while the easy access to multishot, high strength, AP-2 D2 weapons really helps. Unfortunately there is nothing preventing Imperial players from bringing their own Knights to even things out, and if I end up using a large number of Chaos Knights, then I really should not be hanging out in this forum anymore as I am no longer playing a Chaos Space Marine army lol

 

One big Knight and 2 War Dogs should be enough for an additional detachment that wouldn't steal too much spotlight from your CSM, but still get most of their cool abilities. I'd suggest the Thermal Spear/Chaincleaver War Dogs because they seem to benefit a lot from the abilities in that Codex, but you can use the shooty ones too, especially if going Iconoclast since that will allow them to be passable in melee as well.

Also, there's a particular Iconoclast Household (Lucaris) that has an interesting love-hate relationship with the Black Legion. Would be cool to field them together.

[MegaVolt87]

I am worried how prevalent the ignore -1AP will be in the custom chapter traits. This ignores out most efficient weapons- the chain cannon, autocannon and heavy bolter. 

[Kain Mor]

I’m honestly not going to play once this drops until the rules get looked at again come chapter approved or 9th.

 

I have a hard enough time staying relevant with night lords while adhering to fluff as much as possible already, and I don’t see it getting better at this point. The level of damage loyalists can pump out now is insane. Sure, they didn’t get a durability boost but they don’t need one. Spend a round on the receiving end of ultramarine agressors jumping out of the new hot transport and see how much firepower you have left.

 

And before you all say it, I know chaos knights are also the new hotness but that shouldn’t be the solution.

[Prot]

In reading this thread I can honestly say I’m torn. I play both sides of the Game but Chaos longer than most.

 

On one hand I don’t see the new Marines as that potent. Those of you mentioning triple Repulsors, you’re right. I’ve used triple Executioners and Repulsors to amazing results. But this has little to do with the codex and more to do with selling a new kit. That being said if you think loyalists look strong with this release, I can almost guarantee Xenos will be trumping them again as soon as they get new releases.

 

But at the end of the day Marines got a rebuild from the ground up and chaos got a 2.0 Codex expansion with some new data sheets. Big difference.

 

I feel like there must be a revisit of the chaos codex. This just doesn’t make sense to me. As silly as it sounds it seems incredibly unfair that marines would have so much more effort invested in their ‘new codex’ while chaos gets a copy/ paste treatment essentially with a few retouched datasheets.

 

Is it possible there is a ‘marine’ replacement for chaos as well? A change towards a chaos form of Primaris? I really don’t know but the best case scenario is (as some of you suggest) that there are new Legion and unit rules. But logically they would have just released all of this as they redid chaos 2.0. I don’t think chaos is getting anything.

[Tokugawa]

In reading this thread I can honestly say I’m torn. I play both sides of the Game but Chaos longer than most.

 

On one hand I don’t see the new Marines as that potent. Those of you mentioning triple Repulsors, you’re right. I’ve used triple Executioners and Repulsors to amazing results. But this has little to do with the codex and more to do with selling a new kit. That being said if you think loyalists look strong with this release, I can almost guarantee Xenos will be trumping them again as soon as they get new releases.

 

But at the end of the day Marines got a rebuild from the ground up and chaos got a 2.0 Codex expansion with some new data sheets. Big difference.

 

I feel like there must be a revisit of the chaos codex. This just doesn’t make sense to me. As silly as it sounds it seems incredibly unfair that marines would have so much more effort invested in their ‘new codex’ while chaos gets a copy/ paste treatment essentially with a few retouched datasheets.

 

Is it possible there is a ‘marine’ replacement for chaos as well? A change towards a chaos form of Primaris? I really don’t know but the best case scenario is (as some of you suggest) that there are new Legion and unit rules. But logically they would have just released all of this as they redid chaos 2.0. I don’t think chaos is getting anything.

Xenos players(and Imperium/Chaos which want to win a marine civil war) maybe need not to wait new releases.

 

Yeah, GW is pushing Primaris hard, but when it pushing primaris, it also pushing weapons with dmg2 and AP. You may wait, do nothing, and see your units become better.

[Leonite]

Frankly, after playing today and discussing with an Ultramarine player who likes to view both sides of the issue, we agreed that... well, it's a slight upgrade, but not as gamechanging as everyone thinks, especially with Shock Assault benefiting us way more.