GW reveals Shock Assault!

[Khornestar]

 

 

The lamenting and gnashing of teeth is at an all time high I see. 

Jeez guys the book isn't even formally released yet, please just give GW a little time to respond for chaos lol.

 

 

I applaud your optimism, but hey that's an aspect of Tzeentch so I expect nothing less. :)

 

...though the only thing GW has said will be coming our way is the Shock Assault rule. For anything else I wouldn't get my hopes up.

 

I would imagine Chapter Approved will be a big deal for chaos this year given many of the point reductions. 

CSM will probably be 12, and rhinos will drop to 65. 

 

Obvious conjecture on my part but Its an easy foreseeable eventuality.

Not like they couldn’t leave them differently priced, but I think you’ll end up being right. I’m all for cheaper rhinos, if nothing else.

[Maschinenpriester]

 

 

 

The lamenting and gnashing of teeth is at an all time high I see.

Jeez guys the book isn't even formally released yet, please just give GW a little time to respond for chaos lol.

 

I applaud your optimism, but hey that's an aspect of Tzeentch so I expect nothing less. :)

 

...though the only thing GW has said will be coming our way is the Shock Assault rule. For anything else I wouldn't get my hopes up.

I would imagine Chapter Approved will be a big deal for chaos this year given many of the point reductions.

CSM will probably be 12, and rhinos will drop to 65.

 

Obvious conjecture on my part but Its an easy foreseeable eventuality.

Not like they couldn’t leave them differently priced, but I think you’ll end up being right. I’m all for cheaper rhinos, if nothing else.

But we would still end up with similar priced guys without all the buffs. =/

[Prot]

I do agree chapter approved will have some very favourable adjustments for Chaos. If Rhinos went down, that would be big, but I don’t see it. Actually the new loyalist Impulsor is not that cheap. I think base cost is 79?

 

What I like about the loyalist rules is they found some subtle (and not so subtle) ways of making the ‘marines’ very desirable again. They have strongly increased their damage potential, while expanding their utility.

 

For me, that’s what’s missing for the chaos space marines as troops especially,and if you include a system like we are spit balling in that other thread, then you can mimic a potential ‘theme’ like loyalists have now. The motivation would just be different. IE instead of martial prowess, or training Doctrines it would be for personal glory and/or god patronage.

[BrainFireBob]

I just want Cataphractii terminators and movement upgrades for Dark Apostles and Exalted Champions

[Painjunky]

Oh no, Loyalists get extra points of AP on everything! If only we had some way of handing out a 5++ to our entire army that's improvable to a 4++.

 

/doomandgloom

 

The extra AP on everything is just the tip of the iceberg. There are buffs and pt drops everywhere.  

[MegaVolt87]

I'll do Iron Tide if we get cheaper rhino's and CSM's. I love the basic bolter guys.

[Preliminary Bombardment]

 

 

If I'm going to guess at what the changes to Legion Traits are going to be (if any) then I reckon these are what they are going to be (This is not wishlisting this is predictions):

 

• New Renegade Chapters/Thousand Sons/Death Guard - No changes other than applying to all units now.
• Iron Warriors: Ignore Cover (as current) and 6++ FNP (rolling the Legion Strat "Iron Within Iron Without" into the main abilities, alternatively, treat -1AP as AP0, less likely though)
• Night Lords: -1 morale (as current) and -1 to hit for infantry in cover if 12" away (rolling In midnight clad into the main abilities, alternatively, always ignore minus' to hit aka Night Vision)
• Alpha Legion: As Raven Guard, exactly the same.
• Emperors Children: Always Strike First and ???? (no clue on this one)
• World Eaters: +1 to charge (on top of Shock assault so +2 on the charge) and 5++ FNP against Mortal Wounds)
• Black Legion: No Change (yes really)
• Word Bearers: Never lose more than one Marine to Morale and something else (no idea, maybe re-roll charges ala BT)

Again, I don't think any of them are going to happen, I think we're getting shock assault and maybe Legion traits applying to all units, but if they do update the Legion traits I'd go with this as my guess.

For Emperor's Children take the Legion Trait from Traitor Legions. So add either a 6+ FNP or they still get their attacks in melee even if killed before attacking. Both would be rare occurrences given always strike first. Or just you know make always strike first mean what its says, like the old days.

My emperor's children legion wish would be to retain the always strike first as that the slaanesh thing,but also get an accuracy buff. For instance ignore the first-1 to hit if a target unit has this ability. Fits the fluff (training like crazy to attain perfection, tourneys). While making them tougher would be nice it doesn't feel right. IW yes make them rugged, but ECs should be dangerous but not particularly tough for Astartes.

[techsoldaten]

Loyalists also get first turn deep strike anywhere on the board with Drop Pods.

 

Anyone running a Soulforged Pack, Cult of the Damned, Lord of Skulls, Bikers, or melee Knights / Helbrutes? Getting around the instant screen they can drop ahead of your shortest path will be fun. I imagine this means Plasma Cannon Devastators are returning to competitive lists.

 

(Did GW ever issue anything definitive about moving over Drop Pod doors? Last time I saw one on a tabletop, the answer was no, they are part of the unit.)

 

Not to seem too salty, but the new Codex contains so many hard-counters to Chaos. I'm not sure a points adjustment could account for difference in power levels.

[Painjunky]

Loyalists also get first turn deep strike anywhere on the board with Drop Pods.

 

Anyone running a Soulforged Pack, Cult of the Damned, Lord of Skulls, Bikers, or melee Knights / Helbrutes? Getting around the instant screen they can drop ahead of your shortest path will be fun. I imagine this means Plasma Cannon Devastators are returning to competitive lists.

 

(Did GW ever issue anything definitive about moving over Drop Pod doors? Last time I saw one on a tabletop, the answer was no, they are part of the unit.)

 

Not to seem too salty, but the new Codex contains so many hard-counters to Chaos. I'm not sure a points adjustment could account for difference in power levels.

 

Truth.

 

Grav cannons look cool as well and they got a pts drop too i heard.

 

Just 2-3 cheap Drop pods with doors open covers a hell of a lot of real estate. Great for screening, board control and move blocking an army.

Devs and maybe Vets jump out and evaporate whatever they look at.

This could buy the SM gunline another turn to shoot you to bits. 

[Zhaharek]

Loyalists also get first turn deep strike anywhere on the board with Drop Pods.

 

Anyone running a Soulforged Pack, Cult of the Damned, Lord of Skulls, Bikers, or melee Knights / Helbrutes? Getting around the instant screen they can drop ahead of your shortest path will be fun. I imagine this means Plasma Cannon Devastators are returning to competitive lists.

 

(Did GW ever issue anything definitive about moving over Drop Pod doors? Last time I saw one on a tabletop, the answer was no, they are part of the unit.)

 

Not to seem too salty, but the new Codex contains so many hard-counters to Chaos. I'm not sure a points adjustment could account for difference in power levels.

I mean, I think them between the proximity of our release, and this one, there's a pretty clear objective in mind.

Chaos Space Marines are designed from the ground up to lose to our Loyalist counterparts. Not only does the new Loyalist codex contain hard counters to our existing strategies, but all of the buffs we received are either designed to be countered by Loyalist tactics and design, or are explicitly worse versions of what Loyalists have received.

 

I think it's a very clear statement from GW, that CSM products are not intended to be enjoyable within their own right, but are far more intended as a supplementary product to a LSM collection. Xenos too, but to a far lesser degree. If you're setting up opposite a Loyalist player, your armies objective should be to provide your opponent with an engaging board game, not to win. You're basically an NPC.

 

These releases are 100% designed to mirror the fantasy of the lore, the idea of COSTANT Imperial victories and dominance.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Hyperbole much? Wow. Let's start at the end, actually, because apparently having the Cadian Gate destroyed and the Nachmund Gauntlet rendered unusable are dominating Imperial victories.

 

The Doctrine buffs are all related to AP. Guess what we have in abundance? Invulnerable saves. We even multiple ways to *improve* said saves. Devastator Doctrine is the least useful ability against us because an AP-3 lascannin becoming AP-4 doesn't do squat against a Helbrute standing next to a Crown, or a Maulerfiend, for example. And ooooooo, an extra point of AP on melee weapons! When was the last time C:SM had an actual good melee unit? Berserkers will blender any Loyalists that come too close anyway.

 

Drop pods can create an instant screen? Okay, sure, but they're not tough and they're not killy and you can keep them out of advantage positions by counter-screening with Cultists.

[techsoldaten]

 

Loyalists also get first turn deep strike anywhere on the board with Drop Pods.

 

Anyone running a Soulforged Pack, Cult of the Damned, Lord of Skulls, Bikers, or melee Knights / Helbrutes? Getting around the instant screen they can drop ahead of your shortest path will be fun. I imagine this means Plasma Cannon Devastators are returning to competitive lists.

 

(Did GW ever issue anything definitive about moving over Drop Pod doors? Last time I saw one on a tabletop, the answer was no, they are part of the unit.)

 

Not to seem too salty, but the new Codex contains so many hard-counters to Chaos. I'm not sure a points adjustment could account for difference in power levels.

 

Truth.

 

Grav cannons look cool as well and they got a pts drop too i heard.

 

Just 2-3 cheap Drop pods with doors open covers a hell of a lot of real estate. Great for screening, board control and move blocking an army.

Devs and maybe Vets jump out and evaporate whatever they look at.

This could buy the SM gunline another turn to shoot you to bits. 

 

 

Think about this for a minute.

 

Drop pods occupy about 10 inches of space with the doors open. For the purposes of deep strike, that's about a 20 inch bubble. 3 of them in a row covers almost 5 feet of space.

 

For about 200 points, you get area denial across the center of the board and units inside get deep strike. With proper placement, there's no need to spend points on screening units since nothing can arrive anywhere near the rest of your army.

 

If this is the case, why would you not take Drop Pods?

 

- They cost less than a Loyal 32

 

- They're less vulnerable to small arms

 

- They can screen an area covering most of the length of the table and 20 inches wide

 

- They can be deployed anywhere on the board first turn

 

- They disrupt advancing units, effectively giving your army a free round of shooting

 

Done right, this is a powerful alpha strike tactic with the potential to significantly change the meta.

[RapatoR]

In my opinion, it's no really no contest.

 

Just compare the snorefest that is the lapdog preorder video:

 

 

With our sweet, high energy, guitar-reef laced video:

 

 

I sometimes still watch ours, who is going to look at the loyalist one half a year from now?

 

And don't even get me started on models. When our models got revealed, everyones jaw dropped on the floor. The people who even don't play chaos were like: 'Best models released in long time.' or 'This just convinced me to start a new army.' Did we see just one same reaction with this release?

 

Just compare their chaplain, who thinks he is scary because he wears a skull-helmet (yawn) with our dark apostle who, when he wants to be scary, puts his helmet *down*, AND to top it off has a book who is burning and dripping with blood at the same freaking time. Plus, while the poor chap has probably bad vebal skills since he screws up his litanies like 1/3rd of the time, and cannot even convince some attendants to help him. While the Apostle has to literally convince the god-like entities made of hatred to help him out and it works out 1/6th of the time! And his attendants are so dedicated to him they will transform their VERY OWN FACE into a speaker.

 

Their magic dude needs to put fingers to his forehead to do his schtick (Seriously? Does he need a magic wand too?) while our dude si so magical he floats and looks like thousand times more badass while doing so.

 

I can go on. We can compare the two releases model by model and you will be hard pressed to find JUST one loyalist model looks better that any of the chaos release. Plus we got sweet advantage of not having half of our organs/gear named after this senile mechanical Willy the Wonka and his Heresy factory, who can't even understand blackstone, while we routinely build ENTIRE BUILDINGS from it. And speaking of buildings, where is your building, loyalists? That's right, you got none!

 

Our release was done for a campaign where we wreck stuff and take names, while Loyalist release was done so GW can shore up enough money for Brexit. Our Primarchs (thats right PrimarchS) were around all this time, kickings Imperiums rear end, and they will look/sneeze at you so hard, your face melts off and your buttcheeks meld together, while ther Primarch got sleeping beauty syndrome from being stabbed in the neck I guess and now he is woken od grumpy grandpa who can't understand world around him, yells at people around him to fight harder, while trying to fix mistakes of the past, half of which are of his very own doing.

 

Like I said, no contest. :D

 

Now on more serious note, come on! The entire 8th edition, the CSM were straight up better than LSM, and yet some people somehow still believe GW hates Chaos. The LSM just got to be first one in the new cycle this time, and t be frank I am quite happy about it, since they A. deserve it after all this and B. first codexes of the cycle usually tend to be quite strong at the start, but end up being the weakest ones after some time passes. So this time I would be more than willing to be in the middle of the pack.

[Kraken]

 

The LSM just got to be first one in the new cycle this time

Pretty sure we were the first one on that new cycle with the codex CSM 2.0 (the first rerelased codex in 8th edition) and the big Chaos models release including Abaddon, the DiscoLord, new CSM and all that.

The issue is that this new codex was a joke mostly limited to aggregating new datasheets and there is a good chance now that we got it, we won't get anything else for a while.

 

P.S: I think you missed a copy/paste on your post, it's the same video twice :)

[RapatoR]

 

The LSM just got to be first one in the new cycle this time

 

Pretty sure we were the first one on that new cycle with the codex CSM 2.0 (the first rerelased codex in 8th edition) and the big Chaos models release including Abaddon, the DiscoLord, new CSM and all that.

The issue is that this new codex was a joke mostly limited to aggregating new datasheets and there is a good chance now that we got it, we won't get anything else for a while.

 

P.S: I think you missed a copy/paste on your post, it's the same video twice :)

Thanks, fixed that video.

 

I am 100 percent sure the book is 1.5, not 2.0. There is a metric ton of evidenece pointing to that, including (but not limited to) unchanged cover, free update for the E-codex (both are not the case for SM book), but most importantly, the playtesters callig it 1.5 (along with mentioning that the CSM and SM books were written as first two books of the new edition and thus weren't on paar with other books). I mean, the fact that the only updated parts of codex were those ported from Vigilus should tell you something, shouldn't it?

 

I do not for a second think that the new CSM dex is hot on the heels of SM book. But I think it will arrive at some point. One of the Chaos Legion supplements is already de facto released. The contents of Shadowspear will have to be released separately at some point. There are new cultist models teased for new BSF expansion. A lot of the CSM range still needs to be updated. And don't forget the ending of Vigilus - Planetkiller going for Sangua Terra so this might mean another campaign akin to Vigilus one.

[dakkamasta]

Yea I think everyone is over reacting. Chaos had been superior to Space Marines for the entire edition and as soon as they get the buffs they needed everyone cries that we got no love. Our 2.0 codex was just a way to consolidate the new units and updates rules/points into one book. They literally told us we didn't need to buy it which is not a great marketing strategy to promote a new codex fyi.

 

As people said, doctrines arn't scary. They all revolve around AP which we mostly don't care about because all our competitive units have invul saves. Sure they can mow down cultists easily now. THEY BLOODY SHOULD, THEY ARE GODDAM SPEHS MARENZ. 

 

The Shock Assault buff is sooooooooo much better on us than loyalists (except Blood Angels who also don't have a fancy new codex yet). Be patient, enjoy your free buff and stop forgetting how much love we literally just got.

 

There are armies out there like Grey Knights and Necrons that REALLY need some love both ruleswise and modelwise. The sky isn't falling.

[Aothaine]

I think CSM are going to be fine when we get our full upgrade. We're going to have our own cult supplements! Get hyped! World Eaters are going to be getting their own book soon!!! Same with Emperor's Children! 

 

I think we need to look at the broader picture and see what GW is doing. They are not going to make the main villains of this age of 40k unable to pack a punch. Have faith in the dark gods. We'll get the treatment we deserve soon enough.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Yea I think everyone is over reacting. Chaos had been superior to Space Marines for the entire edition and as soon as they get the buffs they needed everyone cries that we got no love. Our 2.0 codex was just a way to consolidate the new units and updates rules/points into one book. They literally told us we didn't need to buy it which is not a great marketing strategy to promote a new codex fyi.

 

As people said, doctrines arn't scary. They all revolve around AP which we mostly don't care about because all our competitive units have invul saves. Sure they can mow down cultists easily now. THEY BLOODY SHOULD, THEY ARE GODDAM SPEHS MARENZ.

 

The Shock Assault buff is sooooooooo much better on us than loyalists (except Blood Angels who also don't have a fancy new codex yet). Be patient, enjoy your free buff and stop forgetting how much love we literally just got.

 

There are armies out there like Grey Knights and Necrons that REALLY need some love both ruleswise and modelwise. The sky isn't falling.

Loyalists (even Primaris) still die in droves when we shoot them pointblank in the face with our truckloads of Plasma and Melta. Our Apostles synergize with our units better than their Chaplains do, we have cheaper disposable screening troops, and our most powerful shooting units can fire twice when needed.

 

A lot of their pretty new rules also encourage them to come and fight at mid-table, which is our wheelhouse. We can shoot at 24 in and under like few other armies can, and then Shock Assault does indeed benefit us more when the Loyalists are too close to disengage effectively. I imagine that Plague Marines will be showing the Loyalists EXACTLY how thankful their Flail guys are for that new rule.

 

Given that they're going to be using tons of new Impulsors, Flakk Missile is going to be making a more frequent appearance, plus Heldrakes will be chomping them with +1 to hit and Hell Blades might even be worth a look. Drop Pods are going to make for some comedy gold when the Lord Discordant charges into them and sets off some serious chain reactions. Might even be worth counter-charging them with a Master of Possession to auto-explode them with that power no one ever takes right now.

 

As mentioned, we have very easy access to decent Invulns at this point, even for our tanks and basic Marines, depending on how much we want to invest into Noctilith Crowns or Apostles.

 

When all else fails......"Death to the False Emperor!!"

 

EDIT: Not sure if Pods explode anymore. We'll see.

[Midnight Brotherhood]

I'm still salivating over all of the extra attacks my army is going to get from shock assault, especially combined with the extra procs to Death to The False Emperor. Hot damn my Jump Pack Chaos Lord for my Night Lords with claws of the black hunt and exalted champion warlord trait is going to be getting 7 attacks!!

 

I'm so glad I made chosen with lightning claws too. 4 attacks each and 5 attacks on the champion + DTFE hahaha.

[WarriorFish]

I've reviewed the point changes reported for SM and I'll be happy to see them come to CSM - the lightning claw drops in particular...

[RapatoR]

I've reviewed the point changes reported for SM and I'll be happy to see them come to CSM - the lightning claw drops in particular...

Could you list them or post a link which shows them?

[WarriorFish]

It was in the N&R topic, not sure how accurate it is you never do with early leaks and the like...

[Aothaine]

Really hoping we get something cool for non-legion CSM. My army is Renegade White Scars. Right now I'm just lumping them into the Red Corsairs because the advance and charge plus extra cp is perfect for them. But it would be cool to be able to build my own rules around my psychopathic hunters. 

 

Edit: 

 

Anyone else seeing the synergy and amazing application of Noise Marines and Shock Assault? Holy cow these guys are going to be amazing after we get this rule. I know people are super excited about Khorne getting them but think about it. Berserkers already clear anything they come in contact with. This rule is going to help the units that were struggling in close combat.

 

So check this out!

 

A Noise Marine with Noise Blaster is Assault 3 with the bolter profile. Let's say you have a squad of 10 that gets knocked down to 5 left before the assault phase. You're assaulted. Now you get the following: 15 bolter shots followed by 16 close combat attacks before your opponent even gets to swing at you. This is going to seriously put the pain on any enemy that wants to assault you. All that from a 5-man squad. Sure it is all ap -0 and str 4. But bolter fire is no joke and when you put the numbers into it you'll see.

[Aothaine]

Sorry for the double post. But it is offical now. Hateful Assault

[dreadmad]

Sorry for the double post. But it is offical now. Hateful Assault

 

So, no points adjustments? Are base CSM really going to stay a point more expensive?