BA Codex 0.2 Speculation/Discussion

[The4thHorseman]

Where does it say we don't get Combat Doctrines? If we get Angels of Death we get it. As per the First Article, catch-all ability called Angels of Death, which incorporates the usual suspects – And They Shall Know No Fear and Bolter Discipline – as well as this cheeky little number…Shock Assault.

[Blindhamster]

It says "all chapters using codex: space marines" in the article.

[Chronos1985]

I am reading it as we do get it. It says ALL Chapters get Angel of Death rule, which includes the Doctrine abilities. Blood Angels have access to it.

[Blindhamster]

I am reading it as we do get it. It says ALL Chapters get Angel of Death rule, which includes the Doctrine abilities. Blood Angels have access to it.

I hope you're right!

[Blindhamster]

Confirmed we do not get them on facebook

[The4thHorseman]

Thats hot Garbage. Guess its go go Red Marines.

[Xerxus]

The doctrines do not make sense for us anyway, I'm glad that the future BA codex is not weighed down by it. It would only shoehorn us into more shooting.

[BluejayJunior]

We won't be getting these combat doctrines, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get something similar once a new BA book comes out. 

[Charlo]

It makes sense we don't get it; it's to represent the way the more codex compliant chapters fight.

 

My bet? We'll see later in the week that Ultras and White Scars can alter the doctrines in some way and other chapters can in their own supplements.

 

We'll get our own version of it themed around jump infantry (first turn deep strike?!) etc when the time comes.

 

=========================

 

Seeing the new plastic special character models though, I can't help but wonder who might be on the chopping block for us? Literally all of our characters are ancient or at least very old Resin sculpts. If AoS is anything to go by, GW wants to be rid of Resin so I think it stands to reason we won't have everyone sticking around for the next codex as GW aren't about to go and update them all... Let's have a look shall we?

 

Dante - inevitable, he'll go into the Rubicon and look awesome. He's also got a lot of Black Library support and is beloved.

 

Mephiston - much like Dante, too iconic to not get a new model. HOWEVER, I'd be surprised if he was made into a "Primaris" as he already has crazy stats. New sculpt and rules will do him just fine. Again, loads of BL support too.

 

Corbulo - sadly I think he'll be gone. The rumour always was that the plastic Sang priest was meant to be him. He has some nice buffs but nothing that can't be ported somewhere else.

 

Astorath - when we get Litanies like vanilla codex Chaplains I can't see him being much use. Mass of Doom could easily be transferred into one of the Litanies.

 

Lemartes - See above.

 

Tycho - He's Dead son (....sorry Jol).

 

The Sanguinor - Okay so, I want there to be a model. The Lore is awesome, otherworldly and ties into the Heresy too. It would be nice to have some kind of Daemon Prince level character stomping around for us in a gorgeous plastic kit. However Dante probably has the "Golden Angel Special Character" covered...

 

Gabriel Seth - maybe if the Flesh Tearers get their own book, otherwise, being such a staunch opposer of Primaris in the lore I can't see him being first in line to be embiggened...

[The4thHorseman]

Then they need to get off their butts and make a Proper Combat Doctrine.

 

Easy.

 

Combat Doctrines

 

Without Remorse, Without Relent

BA units with this Doctrine Always fight First regardless, and units in combat may not Fall Back.

 

Judgement of the Angels

"Same as Space Marine Combat Doctrine"

 

To the Bitter Dregs

-1 to hit, but gain a 5+ Feel No Pain.

[Charlo]

Then they need to get off their butts and make a Proper Combat Doctrine.

 

Easy.

 

Combat Doctrines

 

Without Remorse, Without Relent

BA units with this Doctrine Always fight First regardless, and units in combat may not Fall Back.

 

Judgement of the Angels

"Same as Space Marine Combat Doctrine"

 

To the Bitter Dregs

-1 to hit, but gain a 5+ Feel No Pain.

 

Not a fan of these personally.

 

We should be charging so the fight first is useless bar a few niche cases.

 

Why take a debuff? Just grabbing a 5+ FNP by sacrificing other buffs would be cool (maybe too strong though).

[Panzer]

Not getting the Doctrines hurts a lot. Literally every vanilla chapter can out-melee us now from turn 3 on and out-shoot us from turn 1-2 on until we get an update eventually.

 

That being said with the Impulsor and improved Eliminators we still get some nice toys to play around with!

Competetively I'd just go for a custom successor chapter at the moment though (luckily I'm not a super competetive player so I'll be fine with using what we have).

[The4thHorseman]

I feel the fight first and the lock in combat is good, there are a few factions now and quite a few units which have fight first rules, so this would counter that and return it to who charged first, which would be BA.

 

The only reason I added the penality is that I think and army wide 5+ FnP could be too strong. Could also be themey.

[Panzer]

Then they need to get off their butts and make a Proper Combat Doctrine.

 

Easy.

 

Combat Doctrines

 

Without Remorse, Without Relent

BA units with this Doctrine Always fight First regardless, and units in combat may not Fall Back.

 

Judgement of the Angels

"Same as Space Marine Combat Doctrine"

 

To the Bitter Dregs

-1 to hit, but gain a 5+ Feel No Pain.

 

Always fight First is super weak this edition and a 5++ isn't even close to the level of giving your Rapid fire and Assault weapons improved AP, especially not if it comes with a downside.

So much for  "easy".

[The4thHorseman]

Its Fight First and Lock in Combat.

 

We're Melee focused so -1 to RF and Assault Weap doesn't really fit as others said, I'm not questioning its effectiveness.

 

You say that 5++ isn't that good, but Disgusting Resilent is pretty good.

 

Also what are YOUR suggestions?

[Panzer]

Fight first only comes into play when:

• you didn't charge (because you already fight first anyway)
• the opponent charges with more than one unit (because his charging unit fights first and in his turn he goes first to pick a unit to fight with if they have the same initiative)
• second round of combat

However you always want to charge anyway, a smart opponent won't charge you so you can use that ability unless it doesn't hurt him all that much and you don't really want to get stuck in combats for all that long with your melee units because that would mean your melee units suck.

 

Also we're not nearly as much melee focussed as you seem to think. The majority of our units are the shooty units vanilla Marines use as well. Blood Angels are very close to the standard Codex Astartes structure and only tend to be more melee oriented because of the Twincurse.

 

I didn't say 5++ isn't that good. I said it's not as good as improving basically your whole armies AP by 1. Disgustingly Resilient is good but also because it comes with an improved Toughness which already results in less damage you have to roll against.

 

 

I don't have suggestions because I don't enjoy wishlisting. Doesn't stop me from from posting my opinion about your suggestions. If I had to guess I'd say we won't get anything like Combat Doctrines at all and instead something else.

[Xerxus]

A simple solution would be for us to jump ahead one step in the doctrines. Cut out devastator doctrine entirely.

[The4thHorseman]

What could be get instead of CD, thats at least on par with what CD do for Standard SM?

[Panzer]

Who knows. Nobody has foreseen Combat Doctrines either. Sit back and let GW surprise us.

[SnorriSnorrison]

A simple solution would be for us to jump ahead one step in the doctrines. Cut out devastator doctrine entirely.

Blood Angels make good use of Devastators though, to soften up hordes and tough enemies from afar, so losing this wouldn’t help or be overly thematic. Yes there’s the all-in jump pack assault shock tactic but BA still use heavy support units, even if mechanized mostly.

 

Don’t mind that we don’t get the combat doctrines for now. SM release looks like a bit of cheese and sneaky silliness. Deserved perhaps, but this whole infiltrator business isn’t my cup of tea for the Angels of Death.

[sebs_evo7]

Can you imagine a full death company squad with chainswords and that assault doctrine?

[Chronos1985]

Confirmed we do not get them on facebook

Man, that sucks! Their wording makes it seem like we do. Thanks for confirming.

[Indefragable]

This definitely makes me think all Astartes are getting re-worked Codices at some point in time (Emprah knows the GK need it).

 

Emphasis "some point in time" since yes, Codex: SM chapters get some great shinies right now, but it's only a matter of time before other things are adjust as well. Fret not.

 

I also definitely think this means BA (and DA and SW etc...) will continue to be further differentiated from Codex: SM. How exactly? I can't say at the moment, but we'll have to see. For those us who want that, cool. For those of us who prefer "Red Marines," ....well, you have your solution right in front of you with the upcoming SM Codex and/or Successor Chapter rules.

We can all win.

 

 

As an aside, the new Regimental Standard is :cuss -ing brilliant:

Hidden Content

https://regimental-standard.com/2019/08/07/the-rubicon-primaris-for-guardsmen/

[Morticon]

Apologies for only being able to respond now. I'm away in Japan. Reading these responses over the last few days without being able to reply (log in issues) was tough!!!

 

It SUCKS that we don't get doctrines. But, i honestly believe we would have been *the* premier chapter had we get it. We are also not getting all the sm: dex options as I first thought. :( but....I guess we can hold out for the new sex when I drops.

 

My ECO army has gotten notably stronger, but marines have also gotten much stronger, so this will be tough.

 

Either way, it should be awesome. If they have good writers on our stuff, then we can expect die very cool, fluffy changes in the near future

[t-dog1996]

This has honestly been a communications disaster from GW. At first it seemed great, but it turns out that so much of what they originally said was false and the result has been mass confusion. Apparently a whole bunch of people went out and bought Centurions after they said non-codex chapters would be able to use them, and Space Wolf players were buying Stormravens after they said, quite clearly, that you would be able to put Bjorn the Fell-Handed in one.

 

The fact that we don't get the doctrines makes zero sense. Before, we had our own chapter tactic, the Red Thirst and some unique characters and units. On the other hand, normal Marines got chapter tactics of their own, such as Codex Discipline for the Ultramarines, and unique units that we don't get. It meant that, on the whole, there was balance between the two sides. Now that balance has been massively upset. These doctrines are clearly intended to be a tabletop manifestation of the tactical side of the Codex Astartes (rather than the organisational side), which we haven't seen too much of before. Well despite our differences the Blood Angels are very much a codex chapter. We have a more aggressive playstyle but we do conform in a large number of ways. Codex Marines were already better than us in the shooting phase (as it should be), but now the gap will be astronomical. As for the assault phase, our lead in that department has just been massively cut. Yes we have the Red Thirst but whilst it's a good chapter tactic that's still all it is. Codex Marines are now just objectively better than Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves.