Chapter Tactics poll results

[momerathe]

Here are the results of the poll I put up yesterday. I would like to have collected more results but the initial rush of entries had slowed down by this morning - probably something due to the post being pulled form reddit for some obscure reason.

 

 

Quite a clear split, here. Raven guard are unhappy with their nerf (I've got no dog in this fight so I'll leave it at that); Ultramarines are somewhat ambivalent; most of the other chapters are pretty happy. Fists make a strong showing, given how all the initial chatter was about Iron Hands and Salamanders. White Scars is too small a sample to draw much from.

 

 

Pretty much spread as you would expect given the previous chart, plus a general level of volatility. Iron Hands are steadfast as always, but the Sons of Dorn have a few waverers in their midst.

 

 

Current chapter on the left, future chapter on the right. The lure of being able to customise your dudes is a draw for pretty much everyone (though more so for the disheartened Raven Guard and Ultramarines). The Iron Hands look to have the most converts - lotsa people want to play with tanks, it seems.

 

 

I probably shouldn't have included these in the overall survey, or at least worded the questions with more care, so I'm not sure what can be learnt from this. Plus, selection bias is a thing. Still, it looks like there's a non-trivial number of folks who are considering picking up Space marines, which from GW's perspective must be a win.

[Amon777]

I voted IH now and forever but very interesting results.

[MajorNese]

Interesting.

 

And fun seeing IH being true to themselves - after all, whoever is left to play IH in this edition is someone who actually wants to play IH, not the Newest Hotness players of 7th edition.

 

While RG are quite unhappy about their nerf, the interest in custom CTs might be based on the large percentage of successors' players. We have lots of Raptors and quite a few Carcharodons, and while they both use stealth, one is more interested in long-range boltering while the others are intent on getting into CC. Combining Stealth with a bolter/CC buff respectively makes more sense for a fluffy Raptors/Carcharodons army.

 

Anyway, the Newest Hotness people look like they are jumping ship from the two most-used chapters. RG as they got nerfed while others got better, UM maybe because the other buffs provide a more direct advantage - at least that might counteract the whole "But is that unit still not OP when parked next to Girlyman?" thing discussed in this forum recently.

[Subtleknife]

Really interesting results. Still think they fluffed it with the UM. Just very uninspiring as a CT in my opinion. The plus one leader is kwl but the withdraw from combat and shoot is too limited.

[momerathe]

I certainly don't think it the fall back ability needed the -1. 

[MajorNese]

Really interesting results. Still think they fluffed it with the UM. Just very uninspiring as a CT in my opinion. The plus one leader is kwl but the withdraw from combat and shoot is too limited.

Considering that UM were practically better than every other chapter simply by Big G's bubble of ultimate buffs - uninspiring, but still works. Just now the other CTs start to become viable again in comparison, which might be why people think of switching.

 

And calling it uninspiring maybe fits them quite well - they literally do everything by the book, know a bit of everything but not going down one route to its extreme. It doesn't get more unspecialized than strictly following the base template and dialling it up to eleven, instead of going for a zeal-fuelled rampage or cutting off limbs that still work.

[MARK0SIAN]

Yeah, I think some of the ones switching might actually be switching back to their normal faction that they had to abandon at the start of 8th because the rules hamstrung them.

 

A lot of people switched to RG at the start so we might just be seeing people switch back.

[Subtleknife]

 

 

Really interesting results. Still think they fluffed it with the UM. Just very uninspiring as a CT in my opinion. The plus one leader is kwl but the withdraw from combat and shoot is too limited.

Considering that UM were practically better than every other chapter simply by Big G's bubble of ultimate buffs - uninspiring, but still works. Just now the other CTs start to become viable again in comparison, which might be why people think of switching.

 

And calling it uninspiring maybe fits them quite well - they literally do everything by the book, know a bit of everything but not going down one route to its extreme. It doesn't get more unspecialized than strictly following the base template and dialling it up to eleven, instead of going for a zeal-fuelled rampage or cutting off limbs that still work.

It seems like you are trying to hit every meme ever made about the UM. UM are not bland, I think there is enough lore to differentiate them quite nicely. Recent codexes have squished them in with other chapters meaning the identity of all chapters in the book is lost.Just because the UM might have been marginally better than the other chapters (debatable if I'm entirely honest and not something I prescribe to) doesnt mean their CT has to be extremely situational and the majority of the time useless. I think the major reason why people will leave them now is some of the CT are really good now whilst others are not. I shall be staying blue and true.

[Captain Idaho]

Any Ultramarines player who jumps ship because they want more powerful rules is welcome to. I hear Eldar have the most powerful Codex if they're interested.

 

I'll stick to liking my favourite Chapter regardless of good and bad times. There was a time Ultramarines got no special rules and a few characters. There was even a time Ultramarines got just Calgar and Tigurius which were basic plus 1 weapon (actually Calgar had 4 wounds over a Captain back then).

 

I'm a fan and I'll stick to my army, even through this, the darkest time (since it is being phased out).

[Panzer]

 

 

I probably shouldn't have included these in the overall survey, or at least worded the questions with more care, so I'm not sure what can be learnt from this. Plus, selection bias is a thing. Still, it looks like there's a non-trivial number of folks who are considering picking up Space marines, which from GW's perspective must be a win.

 

Don't worry about including this one. It was important to give the option to answer with "none" etc. and there are some things we can still learn from it.

For example that many BA/DA/SW/DW/GK players consider switching to playing vanilla Marines. Half of them using the custom chapter tactic rules and the other half spreading across the vanilla chapters (with apparently nobody interested in going for Black Templars).

Also there seem to be plenty people who don't play Marines at all considering starting a Marine army now.

 

 

Overall though the amount of answers is rather small so it's not the best observation. Could be that with another 100 people the results look very differently. Or not. Who knows.

[MajorNese]

 

It seems like you are trying to hit every meme ever made about the UM. UM are not bland, I think there is enough lore to differentiate them quite nicely.

Sorry, but how GW portraits them currently, it's just too hard not to. Vigilus 1 essentially starts with an all-out war, fought by other chapters in greater numbers, while the UM are mentioned with extremely heroic deeds - re-standardizing imperial timekeeping ("Just count up from whenever that thing in the sky appeared") and solving potential psychiological problems ("New marines are bigger than you? There's a solution - get bigger yorself") instead of actually doing the one thing they were made for.

 

I really liked their 30k iteration - more methodical business and getting things done, less posterboyism with Plot Armour. That one was made so well, it actually got people back to UM after the Dark Age of Matt Ward, but current GW portrayal does steer away from that again. If rules actually make other chapters slightly more attractive, we'll see how many are real fans, and how many were aboard just for the Astartes Chapter of the Month thing.

 

I'll stick to liking my favourite Chapter regardless of good and bad times. There was a time Ultramarines got no special rules and a few characters. There was even a time Ultramarines got just Calgar and Tigurius which were basic plus 1 weapon (actually Calgar had 4 wounds over a Captain back then).

There was even a several editions long time, a certain First Founding chapter didn't have a single named character released. Oh wait, that's still ongoing...

[ShibeKing]

The Ultramarines tactic fits them thematically, highly disciplined warriors with some of the best leaders in the entire Imperium. However, I think the fall back and shoot should be a stratagem like Dark Angels and our Blue friends given an ability like... UM can switch between Combat Doctrines freely. Idk I'm not a rules writer.

But I think them being able to start Assault or Tactical and bounce around each turn would better reflect their adaptive nature.

[Panzer]

MajorNese is somewhat right. Of course UM have a proper identity, however it feels like GW has dialed that way back in 40k. For the most part they feel like a blank template everything else is build upon. I really hope it will change with their supplement. Give them a more roman feel again.

[thewarriorhunter]

I think the results match up with what we were expecting.

 

I'm not thrilled about the RG nerf, but since I've moved to a my own successor chapter I'm very excited about the custom CTs because I can potentially find something that fits the theme/lore even better.

 

On top of that I don't see what's stopping me from cherry picking custom CTs based on my matchup. Having one more tool in the box to tailor lists and make it a better fight seems like a win to me.

[Toxichobbit]

A Chapter Tactic shouldn't be lacklustre just because the Chapter has a powerful character. If (big IF) the character in question is too powerful then that should be addressed, rather than a blanket tax on the entire faction. Doing it the other way around is bad games design and limits future design space.

 

Secondly, the background isn't an excuse for bad rules. Just because someone happens to find Ultramarines uninspiring doesn't mean that everyone who plays Ultramarines deserves to be stuck with an uninspiring rule as their main defining play style. The game is meant to be fun and challenging for all factions, regardless of whether in the background those factions are dominating, whipping boys or just plain boring.

 

Finally, who decides if the Ultramarines are uninspiring? You? Me? A panel of judges? It's an opinion, nothing more. So it certainly should not be a reason for bad rules.

[ShibeKing]

Not a big deal in a casual setting. However, I've been told in a tournament setting that you have to submit your list and tactics prior and are locked into those choices. So no cherry picking in the "pro" scene.

[Subtleknife]

@MajorNese. That is all writing style though not the chapter itself and should have no bearing on their CT. Ultras like many chapters that were stuck in one book have all suffered. Hopefully the supplements change this.

[Xerxus]

The Ultramarine CT is forgiving and probably the easiest one for a beginner to remember. It is weaker, but the abundance of special characters makes up up for this weakness.

[Dizzyeye01]

Honestly I'm really thrilled about being able to create your own custom tactics and while I'm sure there is some harder hitting combos than others, it still shows a nice way of getting a variety of chapters that, while some may have the same geneseed, their history and tactics can be properly shown which is why we're seeing a lot of players choose it. I know I would of done so myself.

[Toxichobbit]

The Ultramarine CT is forgiving and probably the easiest one for a beginner to remember. It is weaker, but the abundance of special characters makes up up for this weakness.

 

Not everyobody uses special characters, nor should they be required to "make up" for a Chapter Tactic's (or stratagems, warlord traits, psychic powers etc) weakness.

 

It's not just weak, it's almost non-existant in some games. T'au and Guard are two examples where you'll rarely use it.

 

It's not the easiest either, as knowing when to fall back and when you're better staying in melee is fairly advanced, requiring you to have a good grasp of the core rules, your faction's rules, your opponent's factions rules and the maths behind how much damage you'll do at ranged with -1 to hit (not to mention other modifiers like heavy weapons or re-rolls) vs how much damage you'll do in melee. Compared to say, one re-roll per unit and ignoring -1 AP, it's clearly harder to use.

 

Edit: and that's without going into the trickiness of getting yourself in situations where you can take advantage of it, rather than it just happening from time to time.

[Xerxus]

Faction balance has to encompass all options. If you want to play a faction while limiting your options then naturally the overall power might be reduced. As for some abilities being useless in certain matchups, that is only to be expected. Tau will be missing out on their overwatch ability vs a shooty UM list, for one.

[Toxichobbit]

It shouldn't be expected that the defining feature of a faction isn't relevant in some matchups. T'au's defining feature isn't their overwatch, that's a mitigating factor for one of their defining features of no melee so your example doesn't work. Chapter Tactics are the defining features of Chapters and as such should be something that's used regularly.

 

If the special characters are upsetting faction balance they should be changed, that way they remain an option and not a band aid. The way you're selling it, they are needed to bring UM on par with other factions*, which is, as I've already said, awful games design.

 

* whether they are or not is another topic and not one I'm interested in exploring right now.

[thewarriorhunter]

Not a big deal in a casual setting. However, I've been told in a tournament setting that you have to submit your list and tactics prior and are locked into those choices. So no cherry picking in the "pro" scene.

 

I don't do tournaments, not sure if I ever will. I can see that being the case there but for a casual game between friends or at a store I don't think it will be an issue.

[CaptainMarsh]

 

Not a big deal in a casual setting. However, I've been told in a tournament setting that you have to submit your list and tactics prior and are locked into those choices. So no cherry picking in the "pro" scene.

 

I don't do tournaments, not sure if I ever will. I can see that being the case there but for a casual game between friends or at a store I don't think it will be an issue.

 

In a casual environment it is fine. Just try not to be 'that guy'.

[Dracos]

I'm imagining two DIY Chapters setting up their armies at the FLGS and having to "roll off" to see who picks their Chapter Tactics first lol :) There's something to be said for the fairness of the tournament environment sometimes :D

 

 

I'm totally excited to see how the Supplement address the difference between the Raven Guard, Raptors and Carcharodons. It won't be necessarily as diverse as the Sons of Dorn, but Corax's children do have their differences. I hope to see GW suggestions for each ... and Lias Issodon would make a fine Primaris model ;)

 

I do wonder if BobbyG is going to be UM only (and I would be all for that myself) if the other supplements might have their own unique unit/rule to balance out .... the return of Corax and Vulkan would not go unappreciated lol.