Rule of Cool vs Useful on Table

[Custodian Athiair]

Just a genuine curiosity for the players in this forum. There are many units in the codex which are widely accepted as rather useless in game, unable to dish out any kind of damage, especially annoying for units where you feel they should dish out the hurt. But I'm curious if people still take these units because, they're so cool I don't care if they don't perform like they should.

 

I know I'm definitely a rule of cool guy, I will get competitive in game, but building my army I like taking what I think is a cool force.

 

Recently for me this has been highlighted by two units in particular:

- Raptors, which look unbelievably cool, so spiky and dangerous, but really don't get the return you want from a squad of chainsword wielding maniacs 

- Forgefiend, which is one my favourite deamon engines, but it's weapon options both sort of disappoint across the board. The Autocannons don't fire nearly as many shots as something that looks that way on the model should. The Ecto-plasma with D3 shots suffers a similar fate. And the range of the weapons is also a little bit of a pain, because it means you have to move and shoot with it quite often, and when it's only hitting on 4+ to start with it really hampers it's end game effectiveness.

 

I still plan on using these units/models in a lot of games, because I love the imagery of them, but I do think I will be consistently disappointed by them.

 

Anyone else suffer similar thoughts?

[Closet Skeleton]

I found my unit of 15 Black Legion Raptors half decent with the +1 attack stratagem so Shock Assault should make them actually sort of viable. The trick is turn 1 warp time and to make sure they tie up enough stuff for the sacrifice to be worth it. 5 man endless cacophony deep strike units are also okay.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I take at least one squad of Troop CSMs every game - and not one of these half-sized suicide squads either. A ten man squad with plasma, properly maneuvered, can do good things for you. A ten man squad with two heavy weapons can do amazing things while holding objectives.

[WarriorFish]

My CSM have lots of Marines on the table because it's cool and what I want to do. I'm not up against hyper competitive lists so they can do quite well for me, and usually form a reliable core. I will be expanding this further with Chosen and Raptors when I start on the models Even the Termies perform if I can find a good spot for them (they tend to get focused on, which is a compliment of sorts..?).

 

The game is more complex than individual units, as a lot happens in a game and nothing works in a vacuum so less optimal units can and will still work (fortunately very few units are so rubbish as to be ignorable!). There's also the Rule of Cool to consider which is arguably the most powerful rule in the game*

 

 

* only works with a fully painted army, so be sure to see to it lest the dice gods punish you for your hubris

[Prot]

I think your question mostly has to do with your state of mind. So in a way... no one can answer it for you.

 

If you go to tournaments, play competitively and are trying to win, that's a bit different mentality than deciding you're going to play for rule of cool. I took my Black Legion to an ITC GT and took what I really liked to paint and I knew it would be in some very difficult match ups, but I don't regret it at all. 

 

I have units that I play for rule of cool... nearly every game has some element of that for me. 

[Trevak Dal]

If I could put forgefiend weapons onto defilers I'd run defilers with forgefiend weapons. Almost like we have these things pointed out with their individual weapons and upgrades like we should be able to or something.

 

3 Defilers with two Hades auto cannons (or two baleflamers) the crab claws and the cannon would be awesome.

 

I don't run Berserkers without pistols.

 

I love how raptors look, but I hate painting them. I traded mine to a guy for some mk4 assault marines and beaky helmets for all.

 

I hope World Eaters get their own book.

[Midnight Brotherhood]

I kind of do a mix of both, I run units that are thematic and rule of cool while still trying to have a focused load out on them for what I want them to do. So you won't see me say mixing special weapons and heavy weapons together in my CSM squad, I'll usually go double heavy or double special in 10 man CSM squad. It's not a huge deal as split fire is a thing but it tends to come more into play when I want to buff certain things with a strategem or whatever and want every gun to count.

 

Things that I run in my Night Lords that are not really 'competitive':

 

Raptors

CSM on foot

Chaos Spawn

Defiler

Helbrutes

Terminators with combi bolters and power fists

 

Though I will say all the above have benefited from a considerable boost from the points drops since the last chapter approved allowing me to really cram alot of stuff even into 1000pts games. The new shock assault rule looks to even further enhance all of the above units. What is good what is not waxes and wanes between editions but what looks cool will nenevr change, start there and focus down on what you want to equip then with

[dice4thedicegod]

Yeah, I kitbashed some mutilators (blightlords, possessed kits) for my world eaters... they aren’t good crunchwise but they look like chaos should . So I try and work em into lists... it’s only 105 points.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I try to do thematic armies. Mostly fluff but some crunch. I play deathguard, and I have seen other DG players with 0 plague marines in some lists. Seems silly to me.

 

My group has a no forge world models policy (all those stupid dreadnoughts that don't get balanced with non forge world models), no abusing the flowchart and index, and generally frowns on pure knight or knight heavy lists. Makes the scene less competitive and fun. Let's people try out less practical but more fun lists.

[Aothaine]

Chaos Bikers for me. :/ I'm still working on the models and most people say they are rather meh. But I like the idea of having Renegade White Scars of Khorne being backed up by Khorne Daemons and Chaos Knights. Slowly building my factions up!

[EL_duderino]

I’m playing World Eaters since 2004/5. Holy numbers everywhere. No sorcery, no other gods.

I’m also attending tournaments, sometimes with the competitive local crowd, and winning the wooden spoon.

It’s tough without any double- shooting, or warp time.

Right now I’m working on a list for my first ever ITC event - I was gonna play for the Heretic Astartes Best in Faction award, then I discovered that Khorne was a legit Faction as well, so I’m back to using Berzerkers and Dreadnoughts

[Gederas]

Rule of Cool is always the main reason for me doing things with my Chaos forces.

 

I’m playing World Eaters since 2004/5. Holy numbers everywhere. No sorcery, no other gods.
I’m also attending tournaments, sometimes with the competitive local crowd, and winning the wooden spoon.
It’s tough without any double- shooting, or warp time.
Right now I’m working on a list for my first ever ITC event - I was gonna play for the Heretic Astartes Best in Faction award, then I discovered that Khorne was a legit Faction as well, so I’m back to using Berzerkers and Dreadnoughts

I hear ya mate. My World Eaters are, as of right now, only ever supported by other World Eaters or Daemons (or Brazen Beasts if/when I decide to make more Havocs and Daemon Engines). I miss being able to do the fun stuff I could with my Emperor's Children or Night Lords when I play them.

 

Also, your name made me do a double-take because that's very similar to another one of our fraters :lol:

[EL_duderino]

I hear ya mate. My World Eaters are, as of right now, only ever supported by other World Eaters or Daemons (or Brazen Beasts if/when I decide to make more Havocs and Daemon Engines). I miss being able to do the fun stuff I could with my Emperor's Children or Night Lords when I play them.

 

Also, your name made me do a double-take because that's very similar to another one of our fraters :lol:

I’m thinking about a Red Corsairs Khorne detachment, so that my Helbrutes and DP can advance and charge

[40kChrista]

Trying my hardest to make my 20 strong Possessed unit work, because I have loved the idea of the unit forever and they should be doing work on the table.

[ChazSexington]

Depends on the setting. If I'm gonna play competitively, you won't see many CSMs in the list, to put it that way. 

[Vorroth]

I try to do thematic armies. Mostly fluff but some crunch. I play deathguard, and I have seen other DG players with 0 plague marines in some lists. Seems silly to me.

 

My group has a no forge world models policy (all those stupid dreadnoughts that don't get balanced with non forge world models), no abusing the flowchart and index, and generally frowns on pure knight or knight heavy lists. Makes the scene less competitive and fun. Let's people try out less practical but more fun lists.

 

That's fine but forgeworld doesn't always mean OP. Tell me as pure death guard what is your best Antitank? The problem is codexes like IG/Eldar are so good WITHOUT forgeworld, but chaos needs some of these dreads sometimes to be competitive. My problem with no FW, what if someone in your group plays a cookie cutter tournament list without FW or knights (easily possible with tau/eldar, imperial soup). Then all he says to say is "I don't use FW or knights, what's your problem?" 

[Gothical]

I go with Rule of Cool, to an extent.

 

For example, I absolutely love daemon engines and think they're fantastic...but since the invention of the Hades Gatling Cannon the Forgefiend is just a bit pointless, so I dropped the one I was going to have for a(nother) Maulerfiend instead.

 

I have a conversion planned for Iron Warriors Spawn so will absolutely have to run them, and I love basic CSM, Chosen, Raptors and Terminators - somehow I will make a viable army out of that lot!

 

Finally, having found out today about C:CSM getting their own equivalent of Shock Assault I am even happier with some of these "poor" units, even if the better units got better still, these units are now certainly viable even if not top-tier selections.

[Special Officer Doofy]

@Vorroth the group I play with don't use cookie cutter tournament lists so it's not really an issue. They decided along time ago not to use forge world stuff because it is often more expensive and they feel the points isn't always well balanced. People still bring knights every now and then and I have seen some forge world models. And every now and then we play some random people who bring whatever they want. Just saying my group values rule of cool vs usefulness but it doesn't mean they are not competitive.

[MegaVolt87]

The "non competitive" units we have are great throw away units and good for just raw bodies to buffer/ set up deadlier ones. Example, BL raptor blob to get the 3 JP chaos lords (chain lord, x2 hammer lords) to combat. Or hellbrutes to split up that enemy AT fire from predators etc. Quantity has a quality all of its own. 

[Silas7]

I go with Rule of Cool, to an extent.

 

For example, I absolutely love daemon engines and think they're fantastic...but since the invention of the Hades Gatling Cannon the Forgefiend is just a bit pointless, so I dropped the one I was going to have for a(nother) Maulerfiend instead.

 

I have a conversion planned for Iron Warriors Spawn so will absolutely have to run them, and I love basic CSM, Chosen, Raptors and Terminators - somehow I will make a viable army out of that lot!

 

Finally, having found out today about C:CSM getting their own equivalent of Shock Assault I am even happier with some of these "poor" units, even if the better units got better still, these units are now certainly viable even if not top-tier selections.

 

Isn't that like the entire new Obliterators design?

[Panzer]

I'm definitely more of a rule of cool guy, however I don't like gimping myself either so it usually ends up being a mix of both. A unit that's cool but trash probably won't see the table more than a few times. A unit that's really strong but doesn't appeal to me personally won't see the table ever. Luckily my usual group thinks similarly with some few exceptions. ^^

[Tallarn Commander]

I'm definitely a Rule of Cool Chaos player.

 

And my 8th Edition Chaos record proves it (6 wins and 26 losses)! :)

 

My opponents often comment on how I bring lists with stuff they rarely or never see (Bikers, Raptors, Renegades and Heretics units, etc).

[Gederas]

I try to do thematic armies. Mostly fluff but some crunch. I play deathguard, and I have seen other DG players with 0 plague marines in some lists. Seems silly to me.

 

My group has a no forge world models policy (all those stupid dreadnoughts that don't get balanced with non forge world models), no abusing the flowchart and index, and generally frowns on pure knight or knight heavy lists. Makes the scene less competitive and fun. Let's people try out less practical but more fun lists.

@Vorroth the group I play with don't use cookie cutter tournament lists so it's not really an issue. They decided along time ago not to use forge world stuff because it is often more expensive and they feel the points isn't always well balanced. People still bring knights every now and then and I have seen some forge world models. And every now and then we play some random people who bring whatever they want. Just saying my group values rule of cool vs usefulness but it doesn't mean they are not competitive.

Ummm... Okay I need to ask.

 

Has anyone in your group even LOOKED at the FW Indexes? Because everything in there for Marines at least is well-balanced for their points. GW decided to hike up the points on almost all the Lords of War units for some reason (because we can't let marines have good Lords of War outside of Bobby G for Loyalists and the Lord of Skulls/Kytan for Chaos it seems....). Honestly, a majority of the stuff in there is more balanced than the codex releases.

 

Because your posts read, to me, as someone who hasn't looked at Forge World stuff since it WAS overpowered and busted, and now when it's balanced you look at it and go "[sounds of rage] FORGE WORLD BORKEN"

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

I try to do thematic armies. Mostly fluff but some crunch. I play deathguard, and I have seen other DG players with 0 plague marines in some lists. Seems silly to me.

 

My group has a no forge world models policy (all those stupid dreadnoughts that don't get balanced with non forge world models), no abusing the flowchart and index, and generally frowns on pure knight or knight heavy lists. Makes the scene less competitive and fun. Let's people try out less practical but more fun lists.

@Vorroth the group I play with don't use cookie cutter tournament lists so it's not really an issue. They decided along time ago not to use forge world stuff because it is often more expensive and they feel the points isn't always well balanced. People still bring knights every now and then and I have seen some forge world models. And every now and then we play some random people who bring whatever they want. Just saying my group values rule of cool vs usefulness but it doesn't mean they are not competitive.

Ummm... Okay I need to ask.

 

Has anyone in your group even LOOKED at the FW Indexes? Because everything in there for Marines at least is well-balanced for their points. GW decided to hike up the points on almost all the Lords of War units for some reason (because we can't let marines have good Lords of War outside of Bobby G for Loyalists and the Lord of Skulls/Kytan for Chaos it seems....). Honestly, a majority of the stuff in there is more balanced than the codex releases.

 

Because your posts read, to me, as someone who hasn't looked at Forge World stuff since it WAS overpowered and busted, and now when it's balanced you look at it and go "[sounds of rage] FORGE WORLD BORKEN"

It's 2019 I can look at any FW points cost with no effort or cost. I'm not saying all FW stuff are not balanced and I'm sure at times they are well balanced or maybe even more expensive. But that's not always the case and my group finds them unbalanced more times then not. Let's use the Lord of skulls and the kytan you mention. Lord of skulls hades gattling cannon and the kytan's kytan gattling cannon are not balanced at all points wise. Exact same Stat line as far as type, range, strength, ap and damage. Hades is 12 shots at 184pts. Kytan is 8 shots at 80pts. Is 50% more shots worth 130% more points? I think not. I've never seen a competitive list that spams helbrutes but I see plenty of competitive list that spam FW dreads. Must be coincidence though and nothing to do with balance, points or options... This is off topic though. If my view on FW balance is bothering you feel free to PM me about it. Sorry some random person on the internets opinion is bothering you to the point you're making up rage quotes.

[MegaVolt87]

FW stuff only appears strong, because CSM are a pretty weak/middening faction. FW units are pointed correctly/ efficiently where the CSM dex hands out few points efficient/ undercosted units like other codexes do. The Legion super heavies were nerfed so GW can sell their plastic knights, super heavies at the old points would actually shake up the knight meta, thus knights would never have needed a nerf if the super heavies were their original points. This way, both knights and super heavies could be sold in tandem.