Rule of Cool vs Useful on Table

[Gederas]

FW stuff only appears strong, because CSM are a pretty weak/middening faction. FW units are pointed correctly/ efficiently where the CSM dex hands out few points efficient/ undercosted units like other codexes do. The Legion super heavies were nerfed so GW can sell their plastic knights, super heavies at the old points would actually shake up the knight meta, thus knights would never have needed a nerf if the super heavies were their original points. This way, both knights and super heavies could be sold in tandem. 

^^^^ Thus

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I've never seen a competitive list that spams helbrutes but I see plenty of competitive list that spam FW dreads.

 

Spamming Helbrutes is impossible because of the rule of 3. You see bigger dreads getting spammed because Helbrutes would have to be the most over-powered unit in the game for them to pull a lot of weight at 2000 points for under 400 points for 3.

 

Only a fraction of Forgeworld units see the table. The problem with Forgeworld for optimization isn't that they have a tendency to be broken, its simply that if you lengthen the list of choices there's more opportunity to find the most efficient option.

 

If you want to compare Forgeworld Dreads to other Chaos Marine Options that would have a similar effect spammed you have to compare them to things with a similar cost and I guess that's forgefiends. There are 3 different types of Forgeworld dread that can load out on all guns and only one pure shooty daemon engine (before we get into the also Forgeworld Decimator which is basically a dread anyway) so its natural that people looking for the perfect thing to slot 3 of into a list would be more likely to pick a dread.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

I've never seen a competitive list that spams helbrutes but I see plenty of competitive list that spam FW dreads.

Spamming Helbrutes is impossible because of the rule of 3. You see bigger dreads getting spammed because Helbrutes would have to be the most over-powered unit in the game for them to pull a lot of weight at 2000 points for under 400 points for 3.

 

Only a fraction of Forgeworld units see the table. The problem with Forgeworld for optimization isn't that they have a tendency to be broken, its simply that if you lengthen the list of choices there's more opportunity to find the most efficient option.

 

If you want to compare Forgeworld Dreads to other Chaos Marine Options that would have a similar effect spammed you have to compare them to things with a similar cost and I guess that's forgefiends. There are 3 different types of Forgeworld dread that can load out on all guns and only one pure shooty daemon engine (before we get into the also Forgeworld Decimator which is basically a dread anyway) so its natural that people looking for the perfect thing to slot 3 of into a list would be more likely to pick a dread.

Well this is off topic again but I certainly disagree, you're comparing a Daemon engine heavy support to a Dreadnought elite. The contemptor Dreadnought is much closer to a helbrute then a forgefiend. For only 28 points more then the helbrute you get a 2+ ws/bs for the first half of its wounds, one more strength, 2 more wounds, a 5++ invuln shooting and 4++ melee invuln, and much more and better options for weapons. That's why I see people take 3 of those and not 3 helbrutes...

 

I'm not telling anyone else how to play, was just elaborating how much I value rule of cool/fluff vs useful/competitive units and how I play. You're not going to convince me that FW models are balanced to the standard GW models though, some suck, but some are blatantly better than the standard codex choices.

[Void Knight]

Trying my hardest to make my 20 strong Possessed unit work, because I have loved the idea of the unit forever and they should be doing work on the table.

I'd love to run this type of unit with the Black Legion Strategem that gives them all 4 marks. Bring one of each daemon herald, a dark apostle, exalted champion, and put veterans of the long war on them.

 

That's 20 models getting D3+1 attacks on the charge, rerolling hits and wounds in the fight phase, at S9, with a +1 to wound.

 

They'll be shot off the table before the charge, but the possibility of them getting into combat is too enticing to ignore.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Well this is off topic again but I certainly disagree, you're comparing a Daemon engine heavy support to a Dreadnought elite. The contemptor Dreadnought is much closer to a helbrute then a forgefiend. For only 28 points more then the helbrute you get a 2+ ws/bs for the first half of its wounds, one more strength, 2 more wounds, a 5++ invuln shooting and 4++ melee invuln, and much more and better options for weapons. That's why I see people take 3 of those and not 3 helbrutes...

 

 

Deredos are heavy support and I see three of them just as often as I see 3 contemptors. I see regular Helbrutes more than I see Forgefiends. Its the point about weapon options that actually matters, no one cares about 4++ in melee or +1 base strength, no one takes a melee weapon on a contemptor or leviathan and honestly if they did then the comparison with helbrutes would be less in FW's favour. Its the ability to take two of the same guns to make an all shooting platform that makes FW dreads popular and the only thing in the codex like that is the Forgefiend or the Predator which is why the helbrute is kind of a red herring comparison.

 

The base points difference is only part of the story when people are cramming on even more expensive weapons on top. With rule of 3 in place it really doesn't matter that much if a contemptor is better value than a helbrute because you can't take more of the cheaper one to make up for the power difference. The contemptors could be 20 points over costed and it would still make more sense to invest 500 points in 3 over 400 in 3 regular helbrutes.

 

If the argument was about 8 helbrutes vs 5 contemptors or 3 deredos that would be completely different. I see loyalist marine players take plastic dreadnoughts more because they have the variety to get round the rule of 3. If a Chaos player wants a dreadnought army then they will take helbrutes and forgeworld stuff because that's their only option.

 

I personally own 3 helbrutes and 2 contemptors and I've never used the contemptors and taken the three helbrutes to at least 3 events because the Contemptors were too expensive to fit in the rest of my list and I couldn't afford to keep up with the meta on actually effective contemptor load outs (I have a plasma cannon and fist Contemptor because that's what's in the only actual chaos looking FW kit and the plastic helbrute hit is better on the table).

Edited August 29, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Vel'Cona]

I go with rule of cool as a first option, but if it doesn't look cool to me I just convert it.  Hence why I use a large number of third party bits and based Noise Marines on the new CSM bodies.  There again, Noise Marines aren't particularly great so I guess my point is I'll prioritize coolness first and find ways to make stuff work unless it's totally irredeemable.

[Hannibal]

Rule of Cool >>> competetive miniatures all the time.

 

Though sometimes we meet to fight with the most cheesy stuff in our collections, usually 2-3 players per side and 2000 points or more per player. In such circumstances there isn´t any cheese anymore. :D

[Prot]

Rule of cool has been especially challenging for me moreso lately with the new marine codex.

 

The problem I have with the phrase ‘cheese’ is it can be difficult to define. Take my Ultramarines.... I, playing weaker and weaker lists while still trying to keep it interesting, but I’m really pounding some armies significantly (even those I struggled against previously).

 

Now the opposite side of the coin is friends with marines want a game vs my Black Legion. I can’t afford to be too ‘cool’ or I’ll almost assuredly be packing up very early.

 

So for me at this point I’m trying new units (new to my playstyle) and trying some light conversion work. Specifically I’m working on a Ghorisvex’s Teeth Lord. I don’t think he’s amazing but perhaps competitive enough for ‘fun’ games.

 

Personally I’ve given up on Possessed for even non competitive games. I certainly did try to make it work though.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Prot

[CMDR_Welles]

Personally, I detest list building... Almost as much as I hate mathhammer, and the term "meta", and competitive play. IMHO, all of which have become millstones around the neck of the hobby...

 

I buy, build, paint, and play the models I like and want to play. Optimal be damned.

 

But then, I am a bit on the radical side and minority, so dont listen to me... No one else does...

[Custodian Athiair]

Personally, I detest list building... Almost as much as I hate mathhammer, and the term "meta", and competitive play. IMHO, all of which have become millstones around the neck of the hobby...

 

I buy, build, paint, and play the models I like and want to play. Optimal be damned.

 

But then, I am a bit on the radical side and minority, so dont listen to me... No one else does...

 

This is literally how I've gone about collecting my Iron Warriors army. (Bar Shadowspear bits)

It's more enjoyable, and it makes me enjoy painting more than I ever used to

[Prot]

Hey you gotta build and play to your desires, and find like minded friends. I always say this game means a lot of different things to lots of different people.