Crossing the Rubicon Primaris

[Red_Shift]

So we've seen a few characters crossing the Rubicon primaris. Some are more or less who they were before (Tigurius), some have more significant t changes (calgar in gravis).

 

How do you guys see the rest of the marines in the chapter adapting to the post Rubicon reality? Do they put their meltagun in the relic armoury and embrace a new role or are we going to see Rubicon equivalents of classic marine unit styles? Our is the Rubicon only for a few significant characters?

[Captain Idaho]

It's a difficult one. The Rubicon Primaris is an artificial construct the writers created so they could remake what characters they wanted in the new style. GW wants to keep Classic Marines relevant at least in the short term since all the fuss we cause about it.

 

So they have to gloss over it I reckon. I'd like to see what GW released in the latest Codex. Perhaps many think it is a sin to change what they are and refuse it. I know I probably would since I'm a stubborn traditionalist.

 

That might give GW the flexibility to leave it open for all.

[Subtleknife]

It's something they will continually gloss over until/if ever they make direct replacements for old marines. Or they could just get rid of their bolter and pick up a bolt rifle and never look back.

 

For my primaris army I like to put the odd beaky or old school helm in to represent a dude that has crossed over and is now in the new squad formations.

[Brother Tyler]

Just for reference, you can see a similar topic that was closed in November here.

Personally, I'd like GW to really move the setting forward the century or two that they claim for the Dark Millennium. Human beings don't live forever, not even the Adeptus Astartes, and those that constantly see combat are more likely to die prematurely than those that live peacefully (unless you're one of the einherjar or a Perpetual ). While I'm okay with some "current" (as of 7th edition) characters surviving into the Dark Millennium setting, the majority should not. And of the few Adeptus Astartes that survive to that time, even fewer should successfully transition into Primaris.

What I think is more likely, though, is that GW will find some rationale for characters that have minis [and rules] to survive both two centuries of warfare and the transition to Primaris. The only ones they'll kill off are those that don't have miniatures (especially if they don't have rules). That way no fans' feelings will get hurt. The timing of this might vary with GW's ability to produce suitable models. For example, if (and this is only hypothetical) High Marshal Helbrecht of the Black Templars attempted the transition, but died on the operating table, GW won't tell us until they have a replacement High Marshal model (and he'll most likely be a Primaris anyways ), and that will be timed to coincide with whatever supplement the Black Templars are included in (hopefully their own, but potentially that for the Imperial Fists).

None of this really matters for the nameless/faceless mooks that fill the background, of course, so they'll die in droves.
 
I forgot - Cawl will probably have improved/perfected the transition process at some point, making the survival rate much higher. Oh wait, that's probably the rationale that GW will give us.  

As for how the legacy Adeptus Astartes get on with life after Primaris, it will vary from individual to individual and from Chapter to Chapter. While some of that transition might be going on, however, the introduction of the Primaris and integration of them into existing Chapters already happened. Doubtless there was some degree of friction, both on an individual level and across Chapters as a whole. We've already seen how the Blood Ravens reacted when Primaris gene-seed was forced upon them; and we know that the Unforgiven have a level of distrust in that they haven't yet inducted Primaris brothers into the Deathwing (I have no idea how GW has reconciled that bit of lore with the fact that established lore has every Librarian within the Chapter as a member of the Deathwing, but that's an issue for the Dark Angels forum). As the novel Spears of the Emperor makes clear, though, the current setting has the Primaris already integrated into Chapters. For the most part, battle-brothers and Chapters have accepted their new Primaris brothers. Marneus Calgar was the first [that we know of] to transition from legacy to Primaris, and Tigurius has followed. No doubt the upcoming codex will fill us in on other battle-brothers across the various Chapters that have transitioned; and the Ultramarines expansion is almost certain to tell us who within that Chapter (and perhaps some of its successors?) has attempted, and hopefully survived, the transition. I'm waiting on the Dark Angels expansion (?) to tell us whether or not any Primaris have been inducted into the Deathwing.

Ultimately, I expect that anyone that transitions to Primaris will accept their new Primaris role. For the faceless mooks, it won't matter. And for the special characters, it won't matter either because they don't generally have squad roles - they'll still be Captain whatever or Chaplain whatever or whatever whatever.

So it's all a fait accompli.

[Red_Shift]

As the drip, drip of lieutenant releases has shown, GW aren't nervous about bringing classic marine weapons out for primaris on an individual basis, so characters seem to be able to move forward more or less the same. Baring weirdness like Calgar not being able to use his own personalised land raider, and the Khan not being able to use a bike in a faction of bikers.

 

It's faceless marine Joe I'm more interested in but Brother Tyler makes a good point about attrition rates and maybe by the current timeline it simply isn't an issue anymore. It would be nice if GW would address it directly though and I'll be interested in seeing how they handle a character like Lysander who is in completely different armour to a direct primaris equivalent. Maybe they will just kill him off!

[Marshal Reinhard]

I'm expecting every chapter is going to a get at least one Primarized character. Which for most of them means their single one. 

 

I find it doubtful they'd go through all of the UM's what, 8? characters within the forseeable future however...

 

But i mean, beyond primarizing the one character in most cases, GW probably doesn't need to do much else, that state leaves room for people to speculate or have their own head canon on what extent their chapter has primarized and will likely keep it that way... for a while

[Ishagu]

I think that characters who get Primaris upgrades will hold on to their unique relics.

 

It will just make them that much more special, being unique heroes with unique items that generic characters can't be equipped with.

[Captain Idaho]

That's a given.

 

Though Tigurius' wargear got better for some reason...

[Marshal Reinhard]

haven't what wargear does exactly changed pretty much from codex to codex since forever?

[Captain Idaho]

Yes and no.

 

Calgar is the same for this edition in both Codex books, for example.

 

Regardless of that, changes generally only occur when there have been edition changes.

 

Upgrades happen if rules need tweaking and I'm all for that. I very much doubt we'll see an FAQ allowing for Tigurius in pre-Primaris rules to get the changes, which is odd really. He became stronger physically, not psychic powers.

[Ishagu]

That's a given.

 

Though Tigurius' wargear got better for some reason...

Not surprised by this. He's being brought in line with other psykers who have more impressive wargear at the same cost.

[Knightsword]

As the drip, drip of lieutenant releases has shown, GW aren't nervous about bringing classic marine weapons out for primaris on an individual basis, so characters seem to be able to move forward more or less the same. Baring weirdness like Calgar not being able to use his own personalised land raider, and the Khan not being able to use a bike in a faction of bikers.

 

It's faceless marine Joe I'm more interested in but Brother Tyler makes a good point about attrition rates and maybe by the current timeline it simply isn't an issue anymore. It would be nice if GW would address it directly though and I'll be interested in seeing how they handle a character like Lysander who is in completely different armour to a direct primaris equivalent. Maybe they will just kill him off!

 

If they do make Lysander cross the Rubicon then they'll most likely stick him in unique Gravis armour to keep his 2+ save like they did Calgar. I wonder if GW will ever be brave enough to have it where a named character actually dies undergoing the Rubicon procedure and doesn't come back.

[Ishagu]

 

 

As the drip, drip of lieutenant releases has shown, GW aren't nervous about bringing classic marine weapons out for primaris on an individual basis, so characters seem to be able to move forward more or less the same. Baring weirdness like Calgar not being able to use his own personalised land raider, and the Khan not being able to use a bike in a faction of bikers.

 

It's faceless marine Joe I'm more interested in but Brother Tyler makes a good point about attrition rates and maybe by the current timeline it simply isn't an issue anymore. It would be nice if GW would address it directly though and I'll be interested in seeing how they handle a character like Lysander who is in completely different armour to a direct primaris equivalent. Maybe they will just kill him off!

If they do make Lysander cross the Rubicon then they'll most likely stick him in unique Gravis armour to keep his 2+ save like they did Calgar. I wonder if GW will ever be brave enough to have it where a named character actually dies undergoing the Rubicon procedure and doesn't come back.

This is a great opportunity to show off a more bulky type of Gravis, but in all honesty I imagine he'll look like Calgar but holding a large Hammer and Stormshield (Which would be an awesome, more modern take on the character).

[Marshal Reinhard]

Regardless of that, changes generally only occur when there have been edition changes.

 

Typically don't get multiple codexes the same edition...

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I can't see any of the Wolves crossing the rubicon, except maybe that blood claw lunatic.

[Sete]

Im expecting Primaris Helbrecth, wont lie. And an Emperors Champion.

[Slasher956]

some one posted in the rumours thread that there is a note in the new codex about more and more marines crossing the Rubicon....

 

Now with the weapons they are getting equipped with 'better' weapons so would only keep relic ones

[Disruptor_fe404]

The exact quote is:

 

"Yet despite the losses suffered and the unspeakable agonies of undergoing the Primaris ascension, more battle-brothers crossed the Rubicon with every passing day."

 

On the page opposite that is another choice quote:

"They sought this agonising apotheosis not for personal glory, but because no Space Marine would refuse greater strength, resilience and weaponry with which to protect the Imperium and slaughter their many foes."

[Lemondish]

It's faceless marine Joe I'm more interested in but Brother Tyler makes a good point about attrition rates and maybe by the current timeline it simply isn't an issue anymore. It would be nice if GW would address it directly though and I'll be interested in seeing how they handle a character like Lysander who is in completely different armour to a direct primaris equivalent. Maybe they will just kill him off!

Given the crazy shenanigans and dumb decisions he makes, that wouldn't surprise me. He's famous strictly for not dieing when he does something insane.

[Brother Tyler]

So far I haven't died when I do anything insane. So far. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, you were talking about Darnath Lysander. It was the "crazy shenanigans and dumb decisions" part that threw me. If Lysander survives to become a Primaris, I imagine it will be pretty much the way Marneus Calgar went from TDA to his current duds.

[Acebaur]

The exact quote is:

 

"Yet despite the losses suffered and the unspeakable agonies of undergoing the Primaris ascension, more battle-brothers crossed the Rubicon with every passing day."

 

On the page opposite that is another choice quote:

"They sought this agonising apotheosis not for personal glory, but because no Space Marine would refuse greater strength, resilience and weaponry with which to protect the Imperium and slaughter their many foes."

That quote sounds like it could be straight our of Fulgrim 

[durdle-durdle]

 

The exact quote is:

 

"Yet despite the losses suffered and the unspeakable agonies of undergoing the Primaris ascension, more battle-brothers crossed the Rubicon with every passing day."

 

On the page opposite that is another choice quote:

"They sought this agonising apotheosis not for personal glory, but because no Space Marine would refuse greater strength, resilience and weaponry with which to protect the Imperium and slaughter their many foes."

That quote sounds like it could be straight our of Fulgrim 

 

I've always thought the fall of the E. kids to be the most realistic and deepest fall of the legions.  I didn't care for Fulgrim's path down the fall being "I picked up a tainted thing and became tainted," but as a legion, I liked it.  Very "the path to hell is paved with good intentions," I felt.

 

I think the problem with killing a character who attempts the Rubicon might be that it would annoy the fans.  I know I'd be annoyed if my favorite character died crossing the rubicon for no other reason than that "well, some of them had to die."  It wouldn't be very fulfilling from a plot aspect, so you'd have to have characters who are either irrelevant to the chapter's identity (and so, nobody cares) or "new" characters like some captain who didn't have a character model before.  I suppose you could always go the way of Captain Tycho, and go with that "he's dead, but this model/rules simulates him in the past," but I don't really like that.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

I think the problem with killing a character who attempts the Rubicon might be that it would annoy the fans.  I know I'd be annoyed if my favorite character died crossing the rubicon for no other reason than that "well, some of them had to die."  It wouldn't be very fulfilling from a plot aspect, so you'd have to have characters who are either irrelevant to the chapter's identity (and so, nobody cares) or "new" characters like some captain who didn't have a character model before.  I suppose you could always go the way of Captain Tycho, and go with that "he's dead, but this model/rules simulates him in the past," but I don't really like that.

 

I'm adamant that if you're gonna kill off characters (even if the real world business reason is you can't be arsed to update their models), you kill them off as the result of a story or event or something. DON'T simply go "nah, some of them had to not make it" with regards to the rubicon. That's just insulting. Especially for chapters that have but that one singular special character. On a similiar note I often hear arguments along the line of "Give them new characters instead!", which to me just beggers the question "Why should the two be mutually exclusive?" Especially for the majority of the one character chapters. Yeah I figure introducing a bunch of new ultramarine characters would make the roster more than a little crowded, but i find it weird how some people count He'stan's existance as some sort of wall to them getting someone new.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think that characters who get Primaris upgrades will hold on to their unique relics.

It will just make them that much more special, being unique heroes with unique items that generic characters can't be equipped with.

Look it Marneus’ gauntlets.

[Dracos]

I enjoy role-playing most weekends. I've been heavily invested in some of my characters, my own creations I would play for years sometimes. I never regretted a character death ... if it happened in a good story arc. They can have my favorite hero, but ...

 

 ... if they are going to kill a Firstborn Hero ... then they   well better do it in a campaign style story arc and use that arc to bring a Primaris hero to that Chapter's forefront.

 

imo