Crossing the Rubicon Primaris

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Primaris love their pickem up trucks... prolly got bumper stickers too.

[MajorNese]

 

1) Tech-Heresy?

- Nope, Cawl is an Arch-Magos of the Mechanicum and RG is the Emperor's Regent, they're both totally authorised to sanction it.

Cawl wasn't promoted to Fabricator General for a reason - what he's done is considered tech-heresy by a large part of the priesthood. The sheer notion of improving the Emperors's/Omnissiah's designs is heretical, and the more traditionally oriented chapters will have an issue with this.

 

Though this won't happen in GW fluff, only maybe in Black Library somewhere. GWs position is "Everyone is close to defeat, and get shiny new stuff, and are either instantly fine with it or after the reinforcements had their first fight and didn't die instantly.".

 

These two-sentence justifications pop up for pretty much every chapter mentioned since beginning of 8th, and are too shallow to be accurate. But they are the official confirmation - "Here, two sentences prove these guys have primaris. You play those guys? Go buy primaris, or they are not true to the fluff."

 

 

3) I wanna use my old wargear?

- Astartes train with every weapon available, sure they have favourites, but with the benefits of becoming Primaris that's a pretty small loss.

The wargear part is mostly based on GWs model side - bolter/plasma would be replaced for their larger versions, but any super awesome relic would just be used on. That storm bolter you were wielding in PA? Sure, in TDA you can fire that thing one-handed. Same as when going primaris.

 

GW wants to sell new stuff, and anything not in the sprues doesn't count. The fluff is written to always just reflect what's in the sprues, not to give semi-official sanction for conversion. It's about time GW opens up the wargear for primaris captains/leftenants, it's getting silly.

[Rik Lightstar]

"Here, two sentences prove these guys have primaris. You play those guys? Go buy primaris, or they are not true to the fluff."

 

This isn't even a thing, you do an army based in any year M32-M39 and you have no Primaris and you're still "true to the fluff".

 

My Pre-Badab Astral Claws Third Company with Huron doesn't have and will never have Primaris, it wouldn't make any sense. It's still "true to the fluff".

 

Rik

[Captain Idaho]

People underestimate, even in secular Chapters like the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, just how much tradition and dogma hold sway over the minds of humanity.

 

The Emperor wrought their genes and in battle have they proven their worth for 10,000 years. Many would hold to their current disposition through sheer bloody mindedness if nothing else.

 

The Chapters themselves are unlikely, in the short and even medium term, to give up on their recruitment of more traditional Marines, allowing them to go alongside that of Primaris recruitment.

 

The recent Codex Space Marines has a blurb where Intercessors are said to work alongside Tactical Marines and are all but unstoppable due to the benefits of both types of warriors.

 

Indeed, this Codex might actually perform that way on the table.

[MajorNese]

 

My Pre-Badab Astral Claws Third Company with Huron doesn't have and will never have Primaris, it wouldn't make any sense. It's still "true to the fluff".

Of course, "historic" armies will never have them.

 

My point was rather about the last codex, including that blurb for every single FF chapter separately, to tell players that their IH/Sallies/whatever not hanging around with Girlyman should still include more primaris. The most insulting was the BA one - "All your successors and you bundle together, get all but killed, saved by your foe, then stocked up with unBAlike primaris.". Killing off most of a legion-sized force off-screen, just to make room for primaris, is just bad writing.

 

 

The recent Codex Space Marines has a blurb where Intercessors are said to work alongside Tactical Marines and are all but unstoppable due to the benefits of both types of warriors.

 

Indeed, this Codex might actually perform that way on the table.

...though mixing and matching more different units gives your opponent more target choice. Instead of wasting 2D shots on oldmarines and having primaris tank 1D shots, both find their ideal targets. The whole "unstoppable force" is codex advertising text you can find for every faction out there.

[RandomMarine]

I agree. I think the story from the perspective of a new recruit to the 41st millennium would be interesting. Or someone who was an original Primaris.

 

(I think we might be M42 now so don't shoot me over the date!)

Both dark imperium books have main characters who heresy era primaris, one of them even admits that when they were first decanted they kinda sucked at actual war until they gained some irl experience

[Cleon]

 

 . The most insulting was the BA one - "All your successors and you bundle together, get all but killed, saved by your foe, then stocked up with unBAlike primaris.". Killing off most of a legion-sized force off-screen, just to make room for primaris, is just bad writing.

 

I have to disagree here, the Blood Angels have been having big incoming threats to Baal for about three editions now and the outcome was actually pretty well handled in the novel (except for the "Mephiston and all the librarians get trapped in a cave - oops" moment) and it's clear the Primaris crusade arrived not to 'save the day' but to help them rebuild after they'd done most of the heavy lifting themselves.

 

What I'd like to see would be a bit more consistency in the background - maybe those chapters on the Terra and Mars side of the rift can spare the resources to have marines crossing the Rubicon aand have a good enough supply of new Cawllgear to equip them, but on the northern side, where there isn't as much supply, where all Primaris gear has to be produced locally in already hard pressed logistic trains or pushed through viciously fought for rift passages there is a much more compelling case to recruit both Firstborn and Primaris in order to utilise all the available equipment (there is a lot of firstborn gear to salvage on Baal) and keep the chapters up to strength - asking to cross the Rubicon is a personal vanity that there is not the resources to support.

[Ishagu]

If you want to argue that people won't be happy in the actual setting, no one can refuse the edicts of a Primarch, the Custodes and the Emperor himself.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Why is that ?

[Brother Tyler]

If you want to argue that people won't be happy in the actual setting, no one can refuse the edicts of a Primarch, the Custodes and the Emperor himself.

 

Ten thousand years of the Imperium's history shows that anyone can refuse the edicts of a Primarch, the Custodes, and the Emperor himself. It just may not go well for them if they do. Free will and all that...

[Kriegsmacht]

If you want to argue that people won't be happy in the actual setting, no one can refuse the edicts of a Primarch, the Custodes and the Emperor himself.

 

How extremely boring in story telling.

[Brother Quixote]

If you want to argue that people won't be happy in the actual setting, no one can refuse the edicts of a Primarch, the Custodes and the Emperor himself.

It's perfectly possible to follow an edict and not be happy about doing so.

 

As far as I'm aware Guilliman has sent out Custodes with Primaris technology and geneseed to chapters and basically said, take this and use it, or you will be considered a traitor.

 

There's a lot of wiggle room there.  No order has been made to make all marines cross the Rubicon, no order to stop making ordinary marines at all.  You can make Primaris and not have them in the majority while still following the order.

Indeed, depending on the individual chapters' circumstances it might make perfect sense to do this.

 

Keeping your existing marines and using the gene seed to make more Primaris recruits makes the most sense in the majority of cases (unless you have no recruits).  As does making new marines of both types if the recruits and geneseed are available to do so.

 

Logistics, of course, might mean you end up preferring one to the other depending on the equipment available.

[Captain Idaho]

There was no edict or order for all Classic Marines to cross the Rubicon so it is perfectly in lore for Space Marines to refuse. And like I said, many would out of principle.

 

Tinkering with the Emperor's work might not sit well for Marines.

 

 

I agree. I think the story from the perspective of a new recruit to the 41st millennium would be interesting. Or someone who was an original Primaris.

(I think we might be M42 now so don't shoot me over the date!)

Both dark imperium books have main characters who heresy era primaris, one of them even admits that when they were first decanted they kinda sucked at actual war until they gained some irl experience

Indeed. What interesting characters for Primaris models that could have had ;)

[BitsHammer]

It's been made prrtty clear by the studio that any Marine worth his geneseed is looking to cross the Rubricon. The increased strength and durabilitt are boons too good to say no to in the wake of the Imperium's darkest hour since the Horus Heresy.

 

People can hand wave it all they wamnt but the lore isn't supporting you on this one.

[Robbienw]

They may all want to (thought this if far from certain)

 

That doesn’t mean they will be able to.

 

Existing weaponry that Primaris can’t use is also too good of a boon to say no to. No marine is going to complain he can’t be an intercessor because he is needed as a terminator, for example.

 

As GW has stated, many chapters still make standard marines to make use of their more flexible and available equipment, and their combat doctrines. For this reason not every marine will be authorised to rubicon themselves.

[BitsHammer]

They may all want to (thought this if far from certain)

 

That doesn’t mean they will be able to.

 

Existing weaponry that Primaris can’t use is also too good of a boon to say no to. No marine is going to complain he can’t be an intercessor because he is needed as a terminator, for example.

 

As GW has stated, many chapters still make standard marines to make use of their more flexible and available equipment, and their combat doctrines. For this reason not every marine will be authorised to rubicon themselves.

The Primarid line is still in its early stages. There is no reason to expect they will always be unable to use classic gear (we just won't see it until the classic line gets shunted out of matched play in 40k).

[Robbienw]

There is some classic gear they will never be able to use because they are too big to get in it, so there definitely is reason.

 

They should make a 3rd type of marine who has their Magnificat tuned so they don’t grow as big as Primaris, so they can still use classic gear but are also pretty much as tough and durable just a bit smaller.

[Brother Tyler]

From a logistics perspective, it is likely that the Adeptus Astartes will continue to employ legacy battle-brothers as long as they have the capabilities/resources (e.g., armour). The transition to Primaris Adeptus Astartes is not without its risks, and there is some (as yet undefined) period of time in terms of preparation, the actual process, and any rehabilitation/training necessary to complete the transition. There is also a limit in how many battle-brothers can undergo this process at one time, limited in terms of the facilities, materiel, and personnel required. Moreover, Primaris resources are finite, though (hopefully) increasing. As Chapters (begin to) implement the process to transition from legacy to Primaris, it will probably start with a trickle of such transition attempts and increase to whatever full capacity will be; and astute Chapter leadership will ensure that they align this effort with the means at their disposal (i.e., they won't create 200 additional Primaris when they only have the resources to support 100).

 

Ultimately, though the current rules restrict the Primaris from using the full range of legacy equipment, we'll likely see their capabilities expand as the model range is expanded. This will likely broaden the scope to the point that there won't be any issues for battle-brothers to transition from a (say) legacy Assault Space Marine to a Primaris chainsword wielding assault specialist (whatever GW ends up calling them). Under the current limitations, there is likely some small degree of friction when Battle-Brother Tony is told to ditch his chainsword to use this new-fangled equipment, but there is an undercurrent of both flexibility and obedience within the Adeptus Astartes, so these points of friction are likely very temporary in nature.

[Ishagu]

I can see Centurion suits working for everyone...

[Xerxus]

The lore is going to suffer until we get past the gestational period and Primaris are fully established. Just bear with it until the Truescale conversion is complete.

[Robbienw]

Primaris aren’t truescale though, but anyway...

[BitsHammer]

The lore is going to suffer until we get past the gestational period and Primaris are fully established. Just bear with it until the Truescale conversion is complete.

Basically this. Reboots are rarely smooth, and even less so when physical product has to be released to replace old products.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It's been made prrtty clear by the studio that any Marine worth his geneseed is looking to cross the Rubricon. The increased strength and durabilitt are boons too good to say no to in the wake of the Imperium's darkest hour since the Horus Heresy.

 

People can hand wave it all they wamnt but the lore isn't supporting you on this one.

 

Wanting to cross and being able too are two different things, Brother Tyler's post above brings up a lot of challenges that they would need to address. I would add that on top of those obstacles they still have their duties that would prevent marines from being able to undergo the process as well whether they're on a strike force or manning a garrison.

 

From a real life perspective filling out the range is going to take a long time. This is a pretty big release but they still have a lot holes, and it'll be probably be at least a year before we see another wave. 

[Captain Idaho]

Having read Codex Space Marines, I can confirm that Primaris are described as being very inflexible, especially in the initial introduction

 

Those who become Primaris within the Chapter benefit more from the flexible progression methods, but considering just how specialised each squad is, they still are less flexible than the Classic Marines. A Tactical squad has, in the fluff, a more flexible in war weapon selection and thus can perform well in multiple situations.

 

It seems likely that, considering each Codex Chapter will want to maintain its fighting capacity to the highest standard, it would continue to recruit both Primaris and Classic Marines.

 

Especially as the power level in "real life" between each isn't as high as people are making out. Sure they're stronger and can take more of a beating, but that means for little if those Intercessors get stuck in a situation where their Bolt Rifles aren't sufficient to the military situation on the ground.

 

Examples being - spores and infestations from Tyranids, Daemons and Xenos etc need to be burnt away - the 3rd Company used Tactical and Assault squads with Flamers in the 1st Tyrannic War to flush out hidden Genestealers and Lictors amongst the dead which were ambushing them.

 

The Battle was large scale and the Company alone, therefore wouldn't have had sufficient access to Aggressors to act as the only flame units for the whole theatre. An all Primaris force would have struggled more due to ambushes, losing more precious brethren and time.

 

Had the flame units been split between the added muscle of Primaris Intercessors, the progress may have been quite different still.

 

(See, I can be objective ;) )

 

***

 

My position is much changed since GW proved itself considerate to my and others concerns by giving such a quality Codex that included Classic Marines just as much if not more than Primaris.

 

As such I can more objectively say that I think a mix of Chapters is actually GW's intent. They want us to at least for the time being.

 

What I'm trying to say is there is no clear superior to Primaris and Classic Marines at this point unless you're talking hand to hand combat. And even then experience, flexible weapons and doctrines and tactics will even the odds greatly.

[Medjugorje]

some one posted in the rumours thread that there is a note in the new codex about more and more marines crossing the Rubicon....

 

Now with the weapons they are getting equipped with 'better' weapons so would only keep relic ones

can you put the link on here?

 

 

While I agree GW is unlikely to kill off any major characters crossing the rubicon, it would be cool to see some complications arise from it here and there. One of the easier examples is probably just putting said character in a redemptor. I understand there's no real risk involved, but interring a character here or there into a dread would make it seem a bit more risky while still not losing any models.

maybe kill any character like Lysander and put him into a dread would be nice. And some characters like the current IF-Chaptermaster dont have a model. So a few can be killed in the fluff but all those who have models gone threw it...