Crossing the Rubicon Primaris

[Slasher956]

 

some one posted in the rumours thread that there is a note in the new codex about more and more marines crossing the Rubicon....

 

Now with the weapons they are getting equipped with 'better' weapons so would only keep relic ones

 

 

can you put the link on here?

The quotes was put in the very next post

[Dracos]

I'll be more than happy to take any concerns over the Canon of Lore seriously the moment GW stops this farcical rule set not allowing Primaris to travel in Land Raiders and being outfitted with Lascannon weaponry, etc. 

 

You find a "rational" reason for the above then I might buy that Firstborns actually have a place in the long term future of the Astartes.

 

Until then the narrative is ... going to continue to ... disappoint. Which is a shame I use to enjoy the BL books. Sorry guys, player who enjoys modelling and use to enjoy the fluff. If I have to choose though playing the game, socializing face to face with others always wins. I'd love to have my cake and eat it too though :)

[Volt]

It's been made prrtty clear by the studio that any Marine worth his geneseed is looking to cross the Rubricon. The increased strength and durabilitt are boons too good to say no to in the wake of the Imperium's darkest hour since the Horus Heresy.

 

People can hand wave it all they wamnt but the lore isn't supporting you on this one.

Except increased strength and durability doesn't actually factor much into warfighting compared to logistics, mobility, and adaptability. Space Marines also function more like walking tanks, meaning the physical durability of the person under the power armor actually isn't going to matter that much when getting shot by things able to pierce power armor in the first place - they're still a casualty. The difference is just that they may be combat effective again after a stint in the apothecarion after having their torso exploded by a 60mm gun instead of being put in a dreadnought.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

It's been made prrtty clear by the studio that any Marine worth his geneseed is looking to cross the Rubricon. The increased strength and durabilitt are boons too good to say no to in the wake of the Imperium's darkest hour since the Horus Heresy.

 

People can hand wave it all they wamnt but the lore isn't supporting you on this one.

Except increased strength and durability doesn't actually factor much into warfighting compared to logistics, mobility, and adaptability. Space Marines also function more like walking tanks, meaning the physical durability of the person under the power armor actually isn't going to matter that much when getting shot by things able to pierce power armor in the first place - they're still a casualty. The difference is just that they may be combat effective again after a stint in the apothecarion after having their torso exploded by a 60mm gun instead of being put in a dreadnought.

Not dying as easilly is pretty important for anyone since you lose valuable experiance and training when you do.

 

Durability in that sense is very valuable.

 

And since a lot of fights end up in melee being able to take a hit while dealingnout more punishment is valuable.

 

Basically I don't agree with your assessment.

[Lucerne]

Primaris and their lore continue to exist for one reason .To sell the new, pricier models at the expense of people that liked the iconic designs. The lore, themes and storytelling at this point are just being held hostage to that goal and it doesn't look like that's going to change any time soon, especially with this attempt to retcon away the iconic image of the loyalist marines.

 

"Every Marine, without exception, wants to throw away their Chapter's lineage and ways of war to become a mutant abomination against the legacy of their Primarchs cobbled together by some heretek dabbler" indeed. Replace "Primaris" with "possessed", and the original lore snippet makes far more sense.

 

GW is bludgeoning fans over the head to throw away the models they already have even more blatantly than having the Chapters take the tech at literal gunpoint, without exception.

 

It's sloppy and cack-handed writing, best written off as propaganda to try and prevent a full on Marine rebellion over the mess...until someone willing and able can write a more interesting story around the blowback and disagreement such sweeping edicts to turn your Chapter into incompetent, lobotomized mutants would logically inspire.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Incompetent mutant abominations?

[Lucerne]

Incompetent mutant abominations?

I mean, the geneseed which chapters generally considered sacrosanct has been desecrated in ways the Emperor never envisioned by a heretek dabbler who doesn't actually know what he's working on. Primaris are twists. Mutants. Going against the Emperor's intent for the Space Marines in the name of the foul sin of "progress" and blasphemy against the Omnissiah's strictures.

 

Primaris may be meatshields but they still die due to tactical ineptitude, and I can only assume severe brain damage is why they refuse to go inside vehicles or ride their own personal transports that their Chapter's entire history has been based around, use readily available wargear their mentally intact selves would have been using for centuries, and, ah yes as the allegedly superior Primaris...get gunned down by Chaos Marines in short order- hi, Shroud of Night!

[BitsHammer]

Quit twisting the lore to fit your displeasure with the Primaris. Cawl was one of the few people who served the Emperor in his geneseed project.

 

It comes born by an authority representing the Emperor himself: the Custodes and it's backed by the only known living loyalist Primarch who is said to have met the Emperor himself before launching a xrusade with said Primaris.

 

Basically no matter how resistant a psycho-indoctrinated soldier who is drilled to put duty above all else might feel they both can't and shouldn't turn down such a gift.

[Volt]

 

 

It's been made prrtty clear by the studio that any Marine worth his geneseed is looking to cross the Rubricon. The increased strength and durabilitt are boons too good to say no to in the wake of the Imperium's darkest hour since the Horus Heresy.

 

People can hand wave it all they wamnt but the lore isn't supporting you on this one.

Except increased strength and durability doesn't actually factor much into warfighting compared to logistics, mobility, and adaptability. Space Marines also function more like walking tanks, meaning the physical durability of the person under the power armor actually isn't going to matter that much when getting shot by things able to pierce power armor in the first place - they're still a casualty. The difference is just that they may be combat effective again after a stint in the apothecarion after having their torso exploded by a 60mm gun instead of being put in a dreadnought.

Not dying as easilly is pretty important for anyone since you lose valuable experiance and training when you do.

 

Durability in that sense is very valuable.

 

And since a lot of fights end up in melee being able to take a hit while dealingnout more punishment is valuable.

 

Basically I don't agree with your assessment.

 

If you're in melee with a foe that is able to reliably trade hits with you, you've already fethed up hard and are likely going to lose that engagement in the first place due to numerical disparity. Being able to semi-reliably survive a hit from a Genestealer in the melee doesn't actually confer the advantage you think it does, as in any given situation the horde will outnumber the astartes comically and it is far better to destroy the enemy from a distance. Melee is for charging into foes who can't trade hits reliably to disperse them with a safe assault, such as weapon teams or tau fire warriors.

 

To quote Sun Tzu-

 

 

 

Now, an army may be likened to water, for just as flowing water avoids the heightsand hastens to the lowlands, so an army should avoid strength and strike weakness. Andas water shapes its flow in accordance with the ground, so an army manages its victory inaccordance with the situation of the enemy. And as water has no constant form, there arein warfare no constant conditions. Thus, one able to win the victory by modifying histactics in accordance with the enemy situation may be said to be divine. Of the fiveelements [water, fire, metal, wood, and earth], none is always predominant; of the fourseasons, none lasts forever; of the days, some are long and some short, and the moonwaxes and wanes. That is also the law of employing troops.

 

The most important thing in warfare on a whole is mobility and maintaining the tactical advantage. This is not done by being super durable or super strong, but by having speed and acting proactively. Now in this regard Primaris do have some added functionality - the Vanguard forces especially confer a useful aid by completely negating the need for Drop Pods with their transports (although for the love of god they need some heavy weapons). But if you have a bunch of tactical marines, you don't really have any incentive to swap them over for Intercesors when you're losing enhanced firepower for slightly better riflemen who are more reliable in a punching fight, but just as poorly equipped in any melee.

[Lucerne]

Quit twisting the lore to fit your displeasure with the Primaris. Cawl was one of the few people who served the Emperor in his geneseed project.

 

It comes born by an authority representing the Emperor himself: the Custodes and it's backed by the only known living loyalist Primarch who is said to have met the Emperor himself before launching a xrusade with said Primaris.

 

Basically no matter how resistant a psycho-indoctrinated soldier who is drilled to put duty above all else might feel they both can't and shouldn't turn down such a gift.

A "gift" meant to overturn that very Primarch's edicts and warp the Space Marines into something the Emperor never meant for them to be, you mean?

 

So a lost intern (who is a heretek by any definition regardless of whose coattails he scraped at before being mind-wiped), a seditious Primarch, and the Custodian lapdogs who made a point of not defending the Imperium for ten thousand years are telling the Chapters to abandon everything about themselves dating back to the First Founding. Not a terribly compelling argument other than through writer fiat.

 

If they "can't", it's because it's at gunpoint. Any of them with self-respect rather than idolizing Guilliman over all else should and in many cases did have doubts in lore. Any lemming Marines that rush for the "upgrade" are from any objective reading of events committing more or less the same sins the traitors did in the Heresy- grasping at baubles for the promise of power at the word of an uncaring father/distant Primarch regardless of the hidden costs and caveats. Because they want to kill more because it's what they're programmed to do, and being possessed becoming Primaris gives them the raw power to do just that. Allegedly.

 

Of course, you could always admit that lore has nothing to do with why Primaris advertising is choking up the codexes and that it has everything to do with a policy of pushing the new models above all else that thankfully seems limited to the LSM, for the moment.

[Dracos]

I’m owning my part in getting thread off topic. I suggest everyone including me go back and look at the OP and stop doing it a disservice by interjecting our personal feelings over the fluff and ...

 

 

... go back to discussing how we feel GW/BL will be forwarding the Primaris Narrative. :)

 

 

 

Neither our wishing or our whining are going to be constructive to the conversation.

[Lucerne]

Unfortunately, it's clear GW has chosen to make Primaris the new default by any means necessary. Expect a lot more puffpieces and the pretense that an incomplete model line translates into in-universe lore where Primaris don't engage in close quarters because the models aren't out yet, the relic meltaguns and grav guns rust unused in the armory because GW hasn't decided to make a sprue for them for Interessors yet, no one rides in the land raider because they want to sell Repulsors this year...

 

ie: the tail will wag the dog for sales demand affecting lore and model limitations either glossed over or handwaved away.

 

Don't expect stories about 40k White Scars on bikes. That's not what GW wants you to buy into for White Scars, any more than absolutely necessary.

No more jump packs in novels once they get around to Raven Guard. After all, it's not like there are Primaris Assault Marines, right?

Black Library stories will treat Primaris as the new "loyalist" more and more and use the terms interchangeably.

 

And of course, more of those ridiculous little fluff bits about how everyone wants to become Primaris ASAP and how you, the reader, should buy lots of this and this new unit or you're collecting Space Marines wrong. And, no, you absolutely don't have any creative freedom to collect your own force that doesn't march in lockstep with what GW has calculated is most profitable. What do you think this is, a story-driven, personalized hobby? Buy more Primaris.

 

In the grim darkness of the far future, there will only be Primaris. There is no storytelling among the stars only the laughter of thirsting shareholders.

 

...At least there will always be traitor marines or Heresy.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Wow you’ve some serious daddy issues going on. It’s not as bad as you make it out to be... not by a long shot.

[Lord_Caerolion]

You mean, except for the supplement they just released for the White Scars featuring lots of stuff about them on bikes?

 

Also, "something the Emperor never meant for them to be"? Dude, it's pretty heavily implied that the Firstborn Astartes were a rush-job, that were created so that the Emperor could have something ready in time for the start of the Great Crusade. It's also heavily implied that the Primaris organs are those that were left on the "cutting room floor", unable to be finished before "release date".

[Lucerne]

You mean, except for the supplement they just released for the White Scars featuring lots of stuff about them on bikes?

Oh, they're throwing oldmarines a dry bone here and there, again mostly because they need to clear inventory on some of the most blatantly useless/dated stuff like the ancient bike models or drop pods. But you don't boil a frog all at once, and this frog is going to fry.

 

If they cared about White Scars, they would have kept the character bike option, new armour be damned. They didn't and they don't, and you'll be able to watch bikes slowly disappear from their art, lore, and novels.

 

EDIT: also lol, the only implication is that Cawl pulled a fabius bile and tried to recreate the Primarchs from stolen notes but found the Emperor had the foresight to avoid his sort of vulturing. The Emperor expected Marines to be disposable, obedient shock troops to conquer the galaxy and obey the Primarchs. They worked every bit as he intended. He didn't want an army of bootleg Primarchs or he would have made those in the first place instead of Marines! Primarchs were generals. The Marines were good little puppets that were never meant to last beyond that.

 

 

Wow you’ve some serious daddy issues going on. It’s not as bad as you make it out to be... not by a long shot.

I'm not sure you understand what that means...

And I must have missed all the attention, emphasis, and promises of continued updates the Adeptus Astartes range has gotten in between the barrage of Primaris Marine advertising.

[Volt]

Eh, I don't have so little faith in GW that White Scars wouldn't eventually get grav bikes or some other unit. They'd be fools to not capitalize on the fandom's love of Space Mongols. Just look at how much the Stormcast range shifted later down the line when people complained about lack of cavalry or basic designs. However there probably will be a winding down of books on firstborn with increased featuring of Primaris over the coming years.

[Lord_Caerolion]

So, when they don't give us something, it's because they hate OldMarines, and when they do give us something, it's also because they hate OldMarines? Sure thing dude. I'm done with this conversation now.

[BitsHammer]

Gronards gotta grognard.

 

Seriously, this twisting lore with personal feelings is running counter to what the lore is actually doing

 

Yes, we -could- have had a civil war that left a broken Imperium crippled like the Eldar but the current Marines aren't the Astartes of 30k. Duty to the Imperium and the word of the Emperor superceeds personal discomfort. They are knights and soldiers both amd bound by oath and conditioning to accept the gifts presented by a representative of the Emperor.

 

It's been two years since Primaris were dropped in our laps and everyone lost their minds. Most of us have moved on with the "grieving" process past being angry and move onto acceptance.

 

Being mad for two year and counting isn't healthy and honestly it's wearing me out to deal with it everytime Primaris come up. We get it, you don't like it. Stop ruining everyone else's enjoyment because of it.

[Lucerne]

Except for all the cases where it doesn't and one (in-universe very questionable given the orders and circumstances) authority is throwing its weight around to make Chapters discard traditions and ways of war drilled into them for ten thousand years. Even in GW lore, the existence of resistant Chapters is already set in stone.

 

Because what the current Primaris-centric lore is doing is selling Primaris as the first and only goal, rather than telling a thematic and fitting story about logical consequences of in-universe actions. It's okay for you to feel otherwise but that's the reading I take from the evidence at hand- I mean, literally saying "everyone has to have some" and "every character in the story wants to" is fairly blatant as far as selling the merch goes!

 

Telling others about how tired you are that they have different opinions shouldn't...be all that relevant? If you enjoy reading advertisements and buying the referenced new and shiny models for personal enjoyment, that's great for you, and however many people actually make up "most of us" that also feel that way. GW is emphasizing these models at any cost, and it's good that you- or indeed anyone- can find enjoyment in some aspect of the situation at hand. I'm not trying to ruin the fun of people that wholeheartedly buy into what's being sold as-is and aren't bothered by the prospect of collateral damage to lore or non-Primaris model lines.

 

I'm very sorry for having an informed opinion you dislike, but it simply can't be helped if that somehow ruins your own enjoyment by existing. There's no need for you to "deal with it" and defend GW's honour at the first perceived slight to Primaris. Primaris creep is the status quo. You're okay with that, and that's fine.

[BitsHammer]

This isn't about having a different opinion, it's about writing fan fiction on how you think it should have happened and presenting that as the way it is happening and then getting mad when the lore doesn't agree.

 

And yeah, the lore right now is a bit choppy. Twenty four months is not enough time to completely reboot a 32 year old model line with satisfactory lore. It's an impossible standard and people need to learn to move the heck on.

 

EDIT: nothing about these half baked claims calling for a second heresy over reinforcements is "informed." It's a mess and frankly this "good bad, old better" drum beating contributes nothing of value to the discussion.

[Lucerne]

This isn't about having a different opinion, it's about writing fan fiction on how you think it should have happened and presenting that as the way it is happening and then getting mad when the lore doesn't agree.

 

And yeah, the lore right now is a bit choppy. Twenty four months is not enough time to completely reboot a 32 year old model line with satisfactory lore. It's an impossible standard and people need to learn to move the heck on.

 

EDIT: nothing about these half baked claims calling for a second heresy over reinforcements is "informed." It's a mess and frankly this "good bad, old better" drum beating contributes nothing of value to the discussion.

I mean, you've conceded that the lore is choppy so that's a step- but they've had years to prepare for this in advance, and even the lore being an admitted hack job doesn't explain the ongoing issues with Primaris hype passed off as lore development.

 

Also, you've completely misread the posts about established lore and the way the universe would dictate at least some reactions to the story events, to the point where I'm going to drop this tangent with you as unlikely to effectively communicate my point across.

 

Suffice it to say that the story blurb about "every marine would love the idea of Primaris" is both flawed by GW's own post-Primaris lore blurbs (re: Custodes threats in lore blurbs against Chapters that reject the very idea of Primaris) and blatantly dressed-up advertising in an instance of my main point about what we're going to see more of in terms of the future of the Rubricon lore.

 

In summary, I predict that Rubrion lore is going to be completely dictated by GW's models release plans, and that Marines will continue to be written as leaping at the chance to become the model they want to sell at the time. Oldmarines don't feature into those plans so will be sidelined or at most briefly given fewer and fewer footnotes over time in all media. There will be more "mandatory" units given sidebars and paragraphs in codexes, explicitly without room for individual interpretation of Chapter lore that doesn't involve them.  Any logical gaps in Primaris lore will be glossed over the way they've done so to date- by simply not talking about them, the way they did Schrodinger's Meltaguns.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Ugolino at this point you’re being quite repetitive now. No need to keep repeating yourself bruh.

[BitsHammer]

@Ugolino I can see you're don't care that you're just poisoning the well for everyone else while trying to show off how much smarter than everyone you think you are.

 

I'm done going back and forth with you. I play 40k as a way to unwind and relax, not spend hours arguing with trolls on the internet about their fan fiction.

 

Back to the how Black Library could write stories about this transition: they already are. We're getting Primaris stories showing how they fit into their chapters and carry those chapter's traditions and nature. That's all the BL needs to do right now.

[Volt]

Gronards gotta grognard.

 

Seriously, this twisting lore with personal feelings is running counter to what the lore is actually doing

 

Yes, we -could- have had a civil war that left a broken Imperium crippled like the Eldar but the current Marines aren't the Astartes of 40k. Duty to the Imperium and the word of the Emperor superceeds personal discomfort. They are knights and soldiers both amd bound by oath and conditioning to accept the gifts presented by a representative of the Emperor.

 

It's been two years since Primaris were dropped in our laps and everyone lost their minds. Most of us have moved on with the "grieving" process past being angry and move onto acceptance.

 

Being mad for two year and counting isn't healthy and honestly it's wearing me out to deal with it everytime Primaris come up. We get it, you don't like it. Stop ruining everyone else's enjoyment because of it.

The point isn't about personal feelings, the point is that what the lore is actually doing is stupid and deserves to be pointed out and ridiculed for making no sense. Every single Marine hopping over the Rubicon doesn't actually benefit a Chapter, it cripples it by removing its flexibility and access to like 70% of the entire motor pool. That's stupid not smart, and no pragmatist would ever consider that to be a viable choice based purely on child-like (this being on the marines IC, not addressing you) obsession with being "tougher and stronger so I can purge harder". Marines are supposed to be soldiers, cold living weapons wrought to thrive in the age of darkness after all. Not football hooligans throwing themselves after something trendy while squandering chapter assets purely to prove their own bravado. Ideally any Chapter should be split along 60:40 or 70:30 of firstborn to primaris to properly take advantage of the advantages offered by primaris units while not sacrificing the vast majority of their wargear.

 

Remember what makes a Chapter tick isn't actually the marines. Marines without air superiority, transports, heavy armor, and artillery are what is known as extra crispy suits of power armor. Infantry is worthless by itself, and depends upon combined arms to stay alive. And so far all Primaris have in their motor pool that they can actually use is an IFV, Tank Destroyer, APC, and one bomber/transport (thunderhawk). Arguably an MBT as well, but I'm not too familiar with how prevalent the Astraeus actually is. Just looking at airpower, that's throwing away all of the Dark Talons, Nephilim, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Stormraven, Stormhawk, Storm Talon, Stormwolf/Stormfang, and Land Speeder Tempests. That's a massive blow to a Chapter's survival on the field of battle and motive enough to not cross most marines over to the rubicon to simply keep the crew for those craft around and not mothball all of the airframes.

[Bryan Blaire]

We haven't seen all of what the Primaris will be - we already know there's more to come. Maybe they get these holes being identified filled, none of us know yet - none of us. Let's stop acting like the current state is how it will always be.

 

It's in a partial state right now, which is likely how many of the standard Astartes are crossing the Rubicon, a portion. We'll see how the state is in another couple of years.