Crossing the Rubicon Primaris

[BitsHammer]

If you think GW will leave those holes in the chapters with the Primaris then you must be not thinking clearly.

 

Those holes will be filled and presented like nothing was ever missing. As GW has always done.

[Volt]

We haven't seen all of what the Primaris will be - we already know there's more to come. Maybe they get these holes being identified filled, none of us know yet - none of us. Let's stop acting like the current state is how it will always be.

 

It's in a partial state right now, which is likely how many of the standard Astartes are crossing the Rubicon, a portion. We'll see how the state is in another couple of years.

The problem is more with GW saying "yep yep, everybody crosses the rubicon right now/pure primaris chapters" while the range is grossly incomplete and realistically that force should get whipped hard without guard support. A pure primaris chapter needs to depend entirely on alpha strikes taking out enemy air on the runway (vanguard). But if they come up against a situation where somebody has an air field behind void shields or a subterranean hangar, they're screwed or are forced to resort to orbital bombardment. Pulling the trigger on 100% primaris should only be done after the Primaris actually have a complete army able to deal with armor and air threats with the same ease as their firstborn brothers.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Or we could just assume that what we see on the table isn't everything, just as we do with every other army. Otherwise, we may as well complain that all units should only get a few shooting phases, given they usually don't have reloads for their weapons.

[Bryan Blaire]

Oddly enough, according to old lore, Marines weren't supposed to be able to deal with air superiority issues on their own either (that was reserved to another part of the Imperial forces per the Codex) - yet folks have gotten used to that idea for Marines. Things like lore change over time.

 

I think the fact that GW still has yet to describe the full Primaris Chapters is telling of the fact that they themselves acknowledge that they can't show how one works - yet.

 

And let's not give in to hyperbole in our rush to condemn where the lore is going and the game state currently is - GW hasn't said "everyone crosses the Rubicon right now." Yes, they said more and more with each passing day (which is itself a hyperbolic statement most likely), but they didn't say everyone and now.

[Volt]

Or we could just assume that what we see on the table isn't everything, just as we do with every other army. Otherwise, we may as well complain that all units should only get a few shooting phases, given they usually don't have reloads for their weapons.

Problem is that the books feature what's on the table due to GW being uptight about IP's since the chapterhouse case. Dark Imperium had some mentions of yet-unseen units, but they could be years away.

 

 

 

Oddly enough, according to old lore, Marines weren't supposed to be able to deal with air superiority issues on their own either (that was reserved to another part of the Imperial forces per the Codex) - yet folks have gotten used to that idea for Marines. Things like lore change over time.

 

I think the fact that GW still has yet to describe the full Primaris Chapters is telling of the fact that they themselves acknowledge that they can't show how one works - yet

Marines aren't ideal by themselves but their strength was always in their air power first and foremost. Not only are all of their pilots effectively tweaked out on space PCP from their power armor on top of posthuman reaction speeds, but they've also got a fairly nasty fleet of incredibly durable interceptors that tend to just gut whatever enemy they come up against, along thunderhawk transports enabling marines to pick up and zoom across the planet with ease in successive lightning raids that continually eliminates the enemy's ability to respond to the Chapter's presence at all. Up until recently they didn't even have MBT's either, but at least did have a respectable amount of artillery vehicles and tank destroyers (as it's always been the light armor where marines shine). To quote an old piece of lore from what I think was second edition,

 

 

Marines were never meant to run yolo'ing across the battlefield, but to first establish air superiority with superior fighters/simply bombing the crap out of exposed airfields, drawing armor columns into death traps, and then disposing of the remaining enemy in ambushes or blitz's to cleanly wipe them out with minimal losses.

[Bryan Blaire]

That appears to be third edition (but could be second, don't have the book handy to check) and says nothing of air superiority fighters - orbital superiority from their space ships, sure, and Thunderhawk transports, those have always been capable of atmospheric combat that I can recall - they have been there since Epic (IIRC the timeline correctly for those releases) & Forge World started making them. Air superiority fighters for Marines came about from FW (in maybe 3rd/4th Edition on - and most of the recent stuff has been Crusade/Heresy era) and some time around Fifth/Sixth Edition in the GW 40K line (and at the time, a lot of veteran players also railed against that idea for a while). Honestly, given their orbital capabilities, Marines probably shouldn't have to deal much with enemy air superiority issues either, even without their own planes.

 

The fact is Space Marines didn't always have atmospheric superiority fighters in the game (or other things), but now they do, and it is a more recent lore shift (and retconned back into the past as well) - Primaris will likely be the same way in two to three Editions (or living edition cycles or whatever GW ends up calling main rule book revisions here out) - although likely not retconned.

[Dracos]

 

Gronards gotta grognard.

 

Seriously, this twisting lore with personal feelings is running counter to what the lore is actually doing

 

....

 

Being mad for two year and counting isn't healthy and honestly it's wearing me out to deal with it everytime Primaris come up. We get it, you don't like it. Stop ruining everyone else's enjoyment because of it.

The point isn't about personal feelings, the point is that what the lore is actually doing is stupid and deserves to be pointed out and ridiculed for making no sense.

 

Your point has validity .... but his does also. For two years the weeping and gnashing of teeth every ... and I mean every time Primaris are featured in lore or the actual game, there are soul-breakingly tiresome post made vilifying the makers of the game we love. It becomes crushing to those who have accepted GW is moving their product in this direction. Destroying your Brothers here on Bolter & Chainsword enjoyment of the game isn't helping change GW vision in any manner. It just causes a continuous cycle on anger and frustration with members that can do nothing and don't want to do anything to change GW vision. I've seen this kind of thing before and eventually it will just be hurtful to the B&C and the community that loves it. 

 

Do something constructive with all that content. Point that angst in a direction other than those of us at the B&C who had nothing to do with the creation of something you dislike. Organize petitions, send mass e-mails and post on GamesWorkshop sites with like minded individuals if you want to try and make real change. All that's happening here is the slow creation of a toxic environment .... in my opinion.

[Volt]

 

 

Gronards gotta grognard.

 

Seriously, this twisting lore with personal feelings is running counter to what the lore is actually doing

 

....

 

Being mad for two year and counting isn't healthy and honestly it's wearing me out to deal with it everytime Primaris come up. We get it, you don't like it. Stop ruining everyone else's enjoyment because of it.

The point isn't about personal feelings, the point is that what the lore is actually doing is stupid and deserves to be pointed out and ridiculed for making no sense.

 

Your point has validity .... but his does also. For two years the weeping and gnashing of teeth every ... and I mean every time Primaris are featured in lore or the actual game, there are soul-breakingly tiresome post made vilifying the makers of the game we love. It becomes crushing to those who have accepted GW is moving their product in this direction. Destroying your Brothers here on Bolter & Chainsword enjoyment of the game isn't helping change GW vision in any manner. It just causes a continuous cycle on anger and frustration with members that can do nothing and don't want to do anything to change GW vision. I've seen this kind of thing before and eventually it will just be hurtful to the B&C and the community that loves it. 

 

Do something constructive with all that content. Point that angst in a direction other than those of us at the B&C who had nothing to do with the creation of something you dislike. Organize petitions, send mass e-mails and post on GamesWorkshop sites with like minded individuals if you want to try and make real change. All that's happening here is the slow creation of a toxic environment .... in my opinion.

 

It would be completely pointless. GW is a fairly large corporation with a massive revenue stream from a fairly diverse set of assets spanning multiple games. They don't care about any petition drafted (when has a petition ever accomplished anything for that matter?) and mass email spam will not achieve anything unless you could offset the literal millions of consumers who are silent and mostly don't give a damn. Secondly I point at the hypocrisy of this assertion, because you couldn't even start such a movement without convincing people that there is a problem. And on a further note, the utter pointlessness of conversation which is nothing but endless agreement. There is no point in even having a discussion if all people do is agree with each other - the entire point of discussion is for argumentation to constructively attack and break down bad ideas to show their errors. If all we do is praise GW for each and every release then discussion becomes moot as there is nothing to discuss.

 

And I would remind you that all of my posts have actually been on topic. Crossing the rubicon for the majority is foolish because it is ultimately a tactical error, one that weakens the chapter's combat effectiveness in exchange for merely chunkier infantry. It's not a logical trade, and should only be done by a Chapter once they can stuff the 8 foot tall marines into the cockpits made for 7 foot tall marines.

[Lord_Caerolion]

There's a difference between "not having endless agreement" and "all Primaris are tactically inept, brain-damaged, mentally-deficient mutants that are  ing on the Emperors legacy, and if you don't agree you're a GW shill".

[Volt]

There's a difference between "not having endless agreement" and "all Primaris are tactically inept, brain-damaged, mentally-deficient mutants that are  ing on the Emperors legacy, and if you don't agree you're a GW shill".

Cool, quote me where I said that then. I would also point out that right now you're being the toxic one, as I have been nothing but polite in this entire discussion. To quote my entire discourse so far -

 

 

 

Except increased strength and durability doesn't actually factor much into warfighting compared to logistics, mobility, and adaptability. Space Marines also function more like walking tanks, meaning the physical durability of the person under the power armor actually isn't going to matter that much when getting shot by things able to pierce power armor in the first place - they're still a casualty. The difference is just that they may be combat effective again after a stint in the apothecarion after having their torso exploded by a 60mm gun instead of being put in a dreadnought.

 

If you're in melee with a foe that is able to reliably trade hits with you, you've already fethed up hard and are likely going to lose that engagement in the first place due to numerical disparity. Being able to semi-reliably survive a hit from a Genestealer in the melee doesn't actually confer the advantage you think it does, as in any given situation the horde will outnumber the astartes comically and it is far better to destroy the enemy from a distance. Melee is for charging into foes who can't trade hits reliably to disperse them with a safe assault, such as weapon teams or tau fire warriors.

 

To quote Sun Tzu-

 

The most important thing in warfare on a whole is mobility and maintaining the tactical advantage. This is not done by being super durable or super strong, but by having speed and acting proactively. Now in this regard Primaris do have some added functionality - the Vanguard forces especially confer a useful aid by completely negating the need for Drop Pods with their transports (although for the love of god they need some heavy weapons). But if you have a bunch of tactical marines, you don't really have any incentive to swap them over for Intercesors when you're losing enhanced firepower for slightly better riflemen who are more reliable in a punching fight, but just as poorly equipped in any melee.

 

Eh, I don't have so little faith in GW that White Scars wouldn't eventually get grav bikes or some other unit. They'd be fools to not capitalize on the fandom's love of Space Mongols. Just look at how much the Stormcast range shifted later down the line when people complained about lack of cavalry or basic designs. However there probably will be a winding down of books on firstborn with increased featuring of Primaris over the coming years.

 

 

The point isn't about personal feelings, the point is that what the lore is actually doing is stupid and deserves to be pointed out and ridiculed for making no sense. Every single Marine hopping over the Rubicon doesn't actually benefit a Chapter, it cripples it by removing its flexibility and access to like 70% of the entire motor pool. That's stupid not smart, and no pragmatist would ever consider that to be a viable choice based purely on child-like (this being on the marines IC, not addressing you) obsession with being "tougher and stronger so I can purge harder". Marines are supposed to be soldiers, cold living weapons wrought to thrive in the age of darkness after all. Not football hooligans throwing themselves after something trendy while squandering chapter assets purely to prove their own bravado. Ideally any Chapter should be split along 60:40 or 70:30 of firstborn to primaris to properly take advantage of the advantages offered by primaris units while not sacrificing the vast majority of their wargear.

 

Remember what makes a Chapter tick isn't actually the marines. Marines without air superiority, transports, heavy armor, and artillery are what is known as extra crispy suits of power armor. Infantry is worthless by itself, and depends upon combined arms to stay alive. And so far all Primaris have in their motor pool that they can actually use is an IFV, Tank Destroyer, APC, and one bomber/transport (thunderhawk). Arguably an MBT as well, but I'm not too familiar with how prevalent the Astraeus actually is. Just looking at airpower, that's throwing away all of the Dark Talons, Nephilim, Fire Raptor, Storm Eagle, Stormraven, Stormhawk, Storm Talon, Stormwolf/Stormfang, and Land Speeder Tempests. That's a massive blow to a Chapter's survival on the field of battle and motive enough to not cross most marines over to the rubicon to simply keep the crew for those craft around and not mothball all of the airframes.

 

Never have I engaged in personal attacks, accusations of shilling, or accused primaris of being "brain damaged mentally deficient mutants that are gakking on the Emperor's legacy". I'd certainly say a pure Primaris force as-is is tactically inept due to having gaping holes in a combined arms army, but that's the furthest I'd reach.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

There's a difference between "not having endless agreement" and "all Primaris are tactically inept, brain-damaged, mentally-deficient mutants that are  ing on the Emperors legacy, and if you don't agree you're a GW shill".

Cool, quote me where I said that then. I would also point out that right now you're being the toxic one, as I have been nothing but polite in this entire discussion. To quote my entire discourse so far -

 

Never have I engaged in personal attacks, accusations of shilling, or accused primaris of being "brain damaged mentally deficient mutants that are gakking on the Emperor's legacy". I'd certainly say a pure Primaris force as-is is tactically inept due to having gaping holes in a combined arms army, but that's the furthest I'd reach.

 

Apologies if that seemed directed at you, Volt, that is not the case, and was not my intention. Those were more paraphrasing another member on the previous page. I don't mean to imply that all people opposed to Primaris are like that.

[Volt]

 

 

There's a difference between "not having endless agreement" and "all Primaris are tactically inept, brain-damaged, mentally-deficient mutants that are  ing on the Emperors legacy, and if you don't agree you're a GW shill".

Cool, quote me where I said that then. I would also point out that right now you're being the toxic one, as I have been nothing but polite in this entire discussion. To quote my entire discourse so far -

 

Never have I engaged in personal attacks, accusations of shilling, or accused primaris of being "brain damaged mentally deficient mutants that are gakking on the Emperor's legacy". I'd certainly say a pure Primaris force as-is is tactically inept due to having gaping holes in a combined arms army, but that's the furthest I'd reach.

 

Apologies if that seemed directed at you, Volt, that is not the case, and was not my intention. Those were more paraphrasing another member on the previous page. I don't mean to imply that all people opposed to Primaris are like that.

 

Aye, I can appreciate that and happily accept the apology. I do agree that one of the better parts of the community is that we don't descend into reddit/4chan tier argumentative tactics, merely that we focus on the characters and not the posters. Most of the problem just comes from GW planning to drag this gak out for as painfully long as possible, leaving us in a stupid state of no completion and half arsed fluff to justify it so Primaris Chapters don't get wiped the hell out for being poorly equipped compared to mixed generation Chapters. In the worlds of Monty Python, GW needs to

 

 

So this stupid process can just be over instead of a drip feed while we desperately rip into every meager detail looking for some justification/explanation of haphazard fluff.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Oh, definitely. I just want the Gravis release already so I can have my Sons of Medusa-wannabe Iron Hands successors fleshed out. I'd love to see some sort of mobile-artillery Gravis variant, like a mini-Thanatar automata.

EDIT: Also super-glad that GW have finally clarified that Primaris do in fact still use Scouts now.

[Volt]

Oh, definitely. I just want the Gravis release already so I can have my Sons of Medusa-wannabe Iron Hands successors fleshed out. I'd love to see some sort of mobile-artillery Gravis variant, like a mini-Thanatar automata.

 

EDIT: Also super-glad that GW have finally clarified that Primaris do in fact still use Scouts now.

Or god forbid just some jump infantry equipped with melee weapons to act as a counter for gun emplacements, etc. TBH, if I was in charge of designing things I would have reserved weapons on Inceptors and Aggressors. It makes more sense for dudes with jump packs to have chainfed auto bolt pistols and power fists to rip into aircraft or smash into units on the ground (literally jump from orbit and smash into the ground with a power fist, etc), while handing the plasma cannon pistols and pistol modded heavy bolters to the Aggressors to properly saw apart infantry and tanks. Plus it would make more sense for power fists with auto pistols/flamers to deepstrike and charge.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I quite like Inceptors with plasma thank you.

[Rik Lightstar]

With the confirmation that all Marines go through the "Scout" phase, and that Primaris only involve some additional implants towards the end of the process. Do we think that a Chapter decides comparatively late in the process which route an individual is going to be following?

 

Rik

[Marshal Reinhard]

I think "GET ON WITH IT, GW!" is something we ALL can get behind

[Robbienw]

With the confirmation that all Marines go through the "Scout" phase, and that Primaris only involve some additional implants towards the end of the process. Do we think that a Chapter decides comparatively late in the process which route an individual is going to be following?

 

Rik

 

According to the WD article on primaris implantation from a few issues back, the primaris implantation starts early in the process.  The Sinew coils and Magnificat go in 4th and 5th out of all the 22 organs.  Only the furnace goes in later.

 

So the chapter would have to decide early in the process.

[Marshal Rohr]

Belisarius Cawl didn’t work on the original geneseed project with the Emperor. He was an adept on Trisolian during the Heresy.

[MajorNese]

Belisarius Cawl didn’t work on the original geneseed project with the Emperor. He was an adept on Trisolian during the Heresy.

Yeah, found that weird too, there was not a single mention of that work.

 

At Trisolian he was still an acolyte, so he must have been really low-ranking if/when he worked on the geneseed project.

 

 

Still, the whole "Custodes brand anyone who doesn't use primaris a traitor" seems rather like lazy writing, designed to make primaris mandatory for fluffy armies. And quite unrealistic, given how big the galaxy is and how communication/travel is erratic at best.

 

"We lost 63 loyal chapters in that segmentum." - "Chaos attacks?" - "Nope, they refused to show us their token primaris, most claiming said token primaris was on vacation right now. Glad we were able to contain that threat, even if we lost a considerable amount of forces in a totally justified action against otherwise loyal Astartes. And it was surely the best use of our resources, given how peaceful the galaxy is right now."

 

Sounds like provoking Badab all over again, with the more traditional chapters in risk of ending up on the wrong side of an Exterminatus.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think him working on the original geneseed project is part of the ‘misremembered myth’ angle. He wasn’t old enough to have lived on Terra during the Unfication Wars in Wolfsbane. People in 40k think he might have, but he actually didn’t.

[Brother Tyler]

Let's get back on topic, folks.

[Kriegsmacht]

Looks like I helped start a  storm in here which wasn't really my intention. I think the new marines are cool I have nothing against them. I just felt that it would have been more interesting if there was some conflict or friction among some of the chapters and the idea of crossing this Rubicon. Wasn't expecting or hoping for a full on civil war between the two different types of marines. The lore is what it is and that's cool.

 

My favourite Marine chapter is the Exorcists and I would love a short story about how they handled having Primaris Marines after the Custodes representative left because of their Inquisition ties and their involvement with possessions.

[Dracos]

Probably cut all their throats ;)

[BitsHammer]

The Inquisition would likely accept the Primaris into the Red Hunters and Exorcists in exchange for Guilliman not looking too closely into their affairs. Quid-pro-quo and all that.

 

And while I know most of us feel the story would be better served by more friction, I don't think the setting would be better for it. At the time of the Indomitus Crusade the Imperium was on the back foot and losing bad. A Civil war at that time would break the Imperium worse than Slaanesh broke the Eldar.