Colour Scheme Matters - Or Does it?

[Panzer]

 

Clearly I am exaggerating, but I am getting kinda irked by the way some people are trying to take the fun out of the hobby, it is a HOBBY not life and death, you will not die if you play against someone who has orange or brown plastic men using rules about blue pretend men in space. If you think it is life and death you have the option to not play that person.

 

 

That's pretty dismissive. Of course it's not about life and death and nobody is acting like it is. If you'd read carefully you'd see that for people who prefer others to use the rules according to their colour do so because the game is more fun to them that way. Different people enjoy the hobby differently and if you go to an event you are expected to follow that events rules, whether it's that armies have to be painted, no tanks, no flyers, no FW models, no lord of war, models have to be WYSIWYG ... or that models painted in a specific way have to use the rules for models with that colour scheme (which is essentially just an extension of WYSIWYG).

[Closet Skeleton]

There's nothing to suggest this is a slippery slope that 'ends' anywhere.

 

By the GW tournament packs you are forced to play Iron Warriors if your plague marines are painted in Iron Warriors colours but if you're bringing a ton of units Iron Warriors don't get I'm sure the events team won't enforce that since in my experience they're pretty relaxed outside of stuff like 'all units must be painting and based', just don't get caught with blatant third party bits at a Horus Heresy event.

 

They have a legal agreement that bans the use of Lord of the Rings figures at GW IP tournaments but I've seen them let a Harridan converted out of Smaug into their tournament painting competition so even that only counts for so much.

 

There are loads of tournaments that have painting standards and others that don't. Its not a case of anything encroaching anywhere.

 

I have already heard that my long fangs with Missile Launchers bought from FW are illegal.

 

Not at GW HQ run events they aren't, individual store managers might be asses and who knows about independent TOs.

[Arkhanist]

There's a thought process in there I'm not keen on. And it's not a dig at you, Arkhanist - it's come up before in this thread, with someone else using the phrase 'higher standard' to describe players who stick to a single colour-scheme and rule-set for ever.

 

Mixing up chapter tactics is not about playing for advantage, cheese, beard-length, or whatever. It's a choice. It's no better or worse than any other choice (short of being 'that guy').

 

I mean, I barely ever use special characters, I don't maximise efficient units, I don't pick and choose chapter tactics on a game-by-game basis or to match my opponent. These are all my choices, just as people choosing to stick to one chapter for ever is their choice. Not a better choice, or a higher standard, or less WAAC. Just a choice.

 

No offence taken! If I wanted to play as multiple different chapter descendents, I wouldn't have painted 'em as Blood Angels, I'd run them as their own chapter. And believe me, I've been tempted over the years to change them. But that was kinda my point at the end - what makes me, a fluff bunny happy isn't automatically what makes my opponent happy, and in the end of the day the aim is for both of us to have a fun game. I'm not going to tell someone else what is the right and wrong way to collect and hobby, and I'd hope they'd do the same for me. Tournaments is a little different obvs, which is a different kind of fun and needs more constraints because of Those Guys.

 

I'm a collector for sure, so I've had a small force of pretty much everybody (bar Tau, for some reason!) in 40k at some point, though ahem, not all fully painted (I probably should sell that large box of old metal praetorians at some point...). So if I fancied a change of pace, I'd just play something else - for example, I have Death Guard and genestealer cult on my painting list ATM, which are very different from each other thematically and play wise.

 

Of course one can take anything to extremes.

 

I am just wondering were this will end? So if I went to a GW tournament with my Death guard army, not painted in any of the schemes there are in the codex, and instead came with my Plague Marines painted in an Iron Warrior scheme, I am forced to play a chaos list as they are wrongly painted according to a TO?

 

Depends! Are your Death Guard using current (or previous) plague marine models, complete with nurgle's oozing love, or are they bog standard CSM painted in Iron Warriors colours, with bionics everywhere using CSM units that Death Guard can't take? In the latter case, yes, a TO might raise an eyebrow at your 'Death Guard' force. Same as if you claimed that same army was Thousand Sons, or Ultramarines. Death Guard don't have a specific colour scheme, so if you're using the actual models then the colour doesn't matter.

 

The ultimate question is going to be 'is this going to confuse the hell out of his opponent?' and that's their job to decide for their competition, not mine.

 

 

Are they going to DNA test the pigment so we only use GW paints and in the exact way as in the description, and do you have to have video evidence that you only have used GW tools and glue on every single mini when you are going to a tournament?

 

Now don't be giving GW ideas there...

[Cpt.Danjou]

So just to be clear this bloat drone is not in any way permitted in any army in a GW HQ tourney, even when it is done and based, just because of the Hazard stripes and a more metallic look? I am genuinely curious.

Cpt Danjou

[Arkhanist]

It's a bloat drone, therefore it's Death Guard as that's the only valid army for it. Unless you're playing it as a counts-as hellbrute, in which case you're just asking for confusion. Though - where are it's guns? That's gonna fail the WYSIWYG test.

 

Also. I am not a GW tourney organiser, so you're kinda asking the wrong guy.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

That Bloat-Drone is phenomenal, is what it is. Any TO who doesn't allow that for a Death Guard army is a fool.

[Schlitzaf]

Keep in mind guys the rules for GW HQ/Nottingham is because they take photos lot of photos. And what they don’t want is someone doing BA count as Ultra for said photo ops in White Dwarf just for example.

 

So yes in that case they super strict, you can debate if that is a reasonable reason or otherwise. But when those photos/your army are gonna functionally GW advertisement, having x be x is more important. Secondly, for practical purposes they could say that blight drone belongs to one of the many deathgaurd splinter warbands or something.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I feel I need to clarify a few things as it looks like the goal posts have been moved for my original question.

 

My Space wolves who are not painted with GW "Baby blue" or what ever that colour is named, and instead in Vallejo London Grey, they are grey and not blue, are they now not eligible to use the SW codex?  Am I forced to use the standard SM codex because they have the wrong shade according to GW? My Bobby G is painted in a red colour, so now he is not usable anymore in a tournament as the primarch of the UM and all my other red painted dudes that follow him are now not UM either like Calgar or Tigurius?

 

To your first point, which I have underlined, the army is in fact Space Wolves. The shade does not matter as they are grey, and very clearly space wolves. Painting style was never an issue, only the final product being very clearly Space Wolves.

 

Your second point, which I have put in italics, proves the first point. Your example are not Ultramrines because Ultramarines are blue. As they are not Ultramarines you cannot use Calgar or Tigurius, and Guilliman's abilities that affect the Ultramarines keyword would not work on your army.

 

Mixing up chapter tactics is not about playing for advantage, cheese, beard-length, or whatever. It's a choice. It's no better or worse than any other choice (short of being 'that guy').

 

I must respectfully disagree. Using another ruleset because yours are in any way inferior is always cheese in my book. However, if your faction is not represented in rules or is of a faction so large that any presented rules could feasibly be used then as long as you can justify it then there isn't an issue.

 

This is a creative hobby that allows for many ways to express oneself. However, rules are rules. If you want to bend a rule for creativity's sake then I am all ears. Heck, I'll help you do so. But to break a rule, no matter how silly that rule may seem, is still breaking a rule. If you wish to use Calgar in red armour or play Blood Angels as anything other than Blood Angels then you are breaking a rule, and breaking rules is as far from the spirit of the game as you can get.

 

As always if you think I am wrong please say so. All discussion is good discussion.

[Bryan Blaire]

Sounds like anyone in Cpt_Reaper's group would be better off simply playing with unpainted minis or finding a new group to play with if they want to do anything creative beyond GW's meta-story/official depictions.

 

And on the "rules are rules" concept - some of GW's decisions are absolutely asinine - a Primarch is the Lord of an entire gene lineage and was used to commanding battlefields with thousands or tens of thousands of Marines - the idea that he would then only command the barest fraction of Marines from his gene lineage or deem those others of his lineage unworthy of his time and instructions is absolutely :cuss stupid. Anyone that wants to play Guilliman with any successor of the XIII Legion, feel free to come and play a game with me.

 

Folks really need to stop equating the game and it's rules to the fluff, it's an absolutely laughable position - neither is a strict implementation of the other. If you can accept and justify as acceptable that a bolter only is effective to a range of about twenty Space Marines laid down on their backs feet to head (maybe about 150 feet/50 yards/45ish meters), you can accept that those funny iconed red Marines are actually Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, etc. - and there may even be some interesting story reasons for why that happens to be so. One is just as absurd fluffily (?) as the other.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Just so I don't misunderstand your point but are you suggesting that I am the issue in my group or that my local groups are the issue?

 

As I said, I am all for creativity. I encourage people to play DiY factions rather than official ones so they have 100% freedom with their armies. But I also know that doing so comes with certain restrictions rules wise, such as being unable to use certain characters or Relics.

 

Also, the rule may be asinine but if the rule is in direct violation of the spirit of the game why not write to GW and request it be changed or at the very least inform the rules team that players do not agree with the rule?

 

I play by the rules, warts and all. I expect my opponent to play by the rules. I certainly didn't lose every game for 10 years breaking rules.

[Bryan Blaire]

Just so I don't misunderstand your point but are you suggesting that I am the issue in my group or that my local groups are the issue?

If the groups are enforcing this view on everyone, then it's definitely the groups... it doesn't sound like a fun or enjoyable environment to hobby in.

 

As I said, I am all for creativity. I encourage people to play DiY factions rather than official ones so they have 100% freedom with their armies. But I also know that doing so comes with certain restrictions rules wise, such as being unable to use certain characters or Relics.

I've yet to actually see a rule in the rule book or Codex that says "The Ultramarines are painted with X scheme and only Marines painted with this scheme are usable with the ULTRAMARINES keyword." If someone wants to paint their Ultramarines in the Sons of Orar scheme, then as long as their keyword use is Ultramarines, they are following the rules.

 

Also, the rule may be asinine but if the rule is in direct violation of the spirit of the game why not write to GW and request it be changed or at the very least inform the rules team that players do not agree with the rule?

 

I play by the rules, warts and all. I expect my opponent to play by the rules. I certainly didn't lose every game for 10 years breaking rules.

If you want to go ahead and quote the paint scheme rule or at least cite the page it's written on in which book that states that an Ultramarines army painted with a red body and white pauldrons scheme is breaking these rules, please do.

 

On the Primarch front, I have written the FAQ e-mail about it. A lack of adjustment doesn't mean the rule isn't asinine.

 

So, do you agree that the game's rules saying bolts from a bolter are only effective to 150 feet are representative of the fluff? If you agree that it is, then I will agree that the paint scheme fluff has an impact on the Keyword rules - I've yet to see some kind of Keyword paint scheme crunch. Yes, I do agree that GW GTs have their own house rules for said tournaments.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I guess it comes down to a certain point of view.

 

For you a bolter is not a lore-accurate bolter so the colour of the model has no weight from a rules viewpoint.

For me a bolter is simply a bolter and Ultramarines are not Sons of Orar from a rules viewpoint.

 

Is either viewpoint wrong in any way? If mine is wrong then I shall happily wear that.

[Bryan Blaire]

Whole battles don't take place in areas about the size of 1.25x a regulation football/soccer field in the majority of the fluff either, so the game is an abstraction of the fluff.

 

If the game is an abstraction of the lore/fluff, then the lore/fluff != the game rules. So if your argument is that the game needs to be played by the fluff, then the game needs to be played by something other than the rules. You can't have a 'rules are rules' rules-lawyering attitude and then not want to stick to the rules to play the game.

 

Again, if any group has accepted a house rule (meaning that it isn't rule text in the rulebook) regarding paint schemes and keywords similar to the GW Grand Tournament pack, that's great for the group that agrees to it - but that doesn't make that house rule an actual game rule, as someone said earlier/elsewhere - you aren't playing by the official game rules. If you can't quote a rule book stating something about the paint schemes in relation to keywords, then it's a house rule.

 

So again, if the paint scheme = Keywords thing is a game rule, then cite the page it's on and the book it's in - if you can't, then you aren't "playing by the rules" by enforcing something that isn't a rule.

[Cpt_Reaper]

The rule in the Dark Angels codex about successors and keywords is pretty clear though. Yes, I know it's an older codex but the rule is there, plain as day. What isn't plain is how one abides by the rule if nowhere else in the many codexes or core book is painting mentioned as mattering.

 

Page 74 under Dark Angels Successor Chapters states that, for example, Angels of Absolution are not Dark Angels and so cannot access Azrael.

 

I read that as if my models are not very clearly Dark Angels then no Azrael for me. I cannot use the Dark Angels keyword as I am not using the Dark Angels.

 

On the other end is the Chaos Marine codex. Page 118 (under <Legion>) and page 163 (under Legion Traits) suggest that any faction that is not clearly one of the Legions listed must be a Renegade Chapter. Does this mean any force comprised of warbands by other colours cannot follow their parent Legion (eg Steel Brethren cannot be iron Warriors) or is it a bit more flexible?

[Bryan Blaire]

Sure - if your Keyword is “Angels of Absolution” or “Revilers” or “Sons of Orar”, then your Keyword isn’t Dark Angels, Raven Guard, or Ultramarines. I’m right there with you, those are the rules - not contesting that.

 

Now, where is the rule stating “Models that are clearly Dark Angels use X scheme and Y symbols and are assigned the Dark Angels Keyword, use of other paint schemes or symbols indicates that these models cannot have the Dark Angels Keyword"?

 

If that rule isn’t written somewhere, then enforcing it as if it is would be a house rule and using fluff as a game rule. The fluff is not the game’s rules and vice versa.

 

There’s a reason that it is specifically spelled out in the GW GT packet regarding color schemes and Keywords - because it isn’t already a game rule.

 

For reference:

KEYWORDS

Through out this section you will come across datasheets with the DARK ANGELS keyword. This indicates that the unit is drawn from the Dark Angels Chapter, but the keyword can also be changed to represent that the unit is drawn from a successor Chapter of your choosing, as described below."

KEYWORDS

Throughout this section you will come across datasheets with the BLOOD ANGELS keyword. This indicates that the units are drawn from the Blood Angels Chapter, but the keyword can also be changed to represent that the unit is drawn from a successor Chapter of your choosing, as described below.

KEYWORDS

Throughout this book you will come across the keyword. This is shorthand for a keyword of your choosing, as described below.

 

 

All Space Marines units are drawn from a Chapter. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Chapter it is from and then replace the keyword in every instance on its datasheet with the name of your chosen Chapter. This could be one of the Chapters detailed in this book or another Warhammer 40,000 publication, or one of your own design.

 

For example, if you include a Captain in your army, and you decide he is from the Blood Ravens Chapter, his keyword becomes BLOOD RAVENS and his Rites of Battle ability reads ‘Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made by models in friendly BLOOD RAVENS units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.’

 

You cannot choose the BLOOD ANGELS, DARK ANGELS, DEATHWATCH, GREY KNIGHTS, LEGION OF THE DAMNED or SPACE WOLVES keyword when nominating which Chapter a unit is from. Rules for these Chapters are detailed in other publications.

The key wording in each of those is "of your choosing" (also "you decided" in the Codex Space Marines) - not "of your opponent's choosing" or "of your gaming group's choosing" or "per the color scheme rules as shown on page _____". It is your choice, you - the player of the army, to determine what Keyword is being used for your units, within the bounds of the book you are using. Clearly you can't choose the Dark Angels keyword (or any other excluded keyword) for units out of the Codex Space Marines book, it says so right there in the rules. Equally, you are locked into the Dark Angels or Blood Angels keywords (or a Successor, even though that actually isn't defined, so you could have a Blood Angels Successor of your own creation called the Blood Ravens if you really wanted to) if you use the units from that rule book.

 

Hell, the Space Wolves 'Dex doesn't even have that section on Keywords in there and we know they at least one fluff Successor (again showing fluff != game rules).

 

The Keyword selection is on you, nothing else - per the game rules - and unless you choose to use a Successor keyword, then units drawn from the Dark Angels or Blood Angels Codexes (and probably others I didn't reference here) are automatically assigned the Dark Angels and Blood Angels keywords respectively anyway - you are simply using them as written in the rules.

 

Everyone note that in the rules themselves do not indicate (at least for the Dark Angels and Blood Angels 'Dexes) that you must choose a Successor keyword if you don't choose Dark Angels or Blood Angels, those are the defaults if you simply choose units for a detachment from the respective Codexes. The rules make no requirement of you for this. For the C:SM, obviously you must choose a Chapter, but it can be any Chapter period, regardless of anything else - you just can't get characters, relics, stratagems, etc., associated with Keywords other than what you chose.

 

So in answer to your original question - No, according to the official game rules, the color scheme of your models does not matter in reference to Keyword used for your games with those models.

 

So if you/the group/anyone are/is enforcing a house rule on everyone playing there that has agreed to it, that’s fine - you just aren’t playing strictly by the game rules. That’s my point - don’t try to sell house rules/rules additions from elsewhere as if they are written into the base game.

 

Now, I’m all for house rules, I’ve had probably 10-15 in use in my old gaming group from twenty years ago, and we played and adapted them under three different rules sets - but at no point were they official game rules - we couldn't cite them anywhere.

 

Anyone can choose to play another way - if your group(s) want a paint scheme house rule, that's awesome - play what makes it fun for y'all!

 

--------------------

 

TL:DR - official rules say that you the player choose without defining criteria on how to choose what Chapter Keyword you are playing - there are no other official rules on this in the game - all Codexes say the same thing, the choice is yours unless specifically defined by the Datasheet. Any other criteria for choosing is someone's house rule.

 

And house rules are great, I love them, but they aren't official rules.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I get your point now. The allusion of a rule does not a rule make.

 

Thank you for the discussion. First you inspire me with your Stoneburners and now this.

 

And thank to everyone who has contributed to this discussion.

[Bryan Blaire]

Cot_Reaper, I feel for you, man, I really do, because I feel like your group has been forcing on you a rule on playing to put you at a disadvantage that by the rules you never should have had, nor should you have felt had to hold yourself to. Same for anyone else in this situation.

[Kinstryfe]

A similar situation is happening right now. I play Lamenters, because I am stupid and a massochist. I brought up that I should be be able to play as a standard Marine successor chapter because their original lore was that they were basic Marines without Blood Angels traits in their original rules for cursed founding chapters, and were only Blood Angels styled successors later on. I paint my chapter badges styled on 7 checkers because I'm not a complete massochist while the official Lamenters scheme is based on iirc 9 checkers. Am I actually fielding a Lamenters army, because my chapter badge isn't technically the official GW chapter badge? Am I the Lamenting Angels because my badge is technically different, and can therefore choose any blend of successor tactics? This is the stupidness that results from trying to tie color scheme into army rules.

[Bryan Blaire]

A similar situation is happening right now. I play Lamenters, because I am stupid and a massochist. I brought up that I should be be able to play as a standard Marine successor chapter because their original lore was that they were basic Marines without Blood Angels traits in their original rules for cursed founding chapters, and were only Blood Angels styled successors later on. I paint my chapter badges styled on 7 checkers because I'm not a complete massochist while the official Lamenters scheme is based on iirc 9 checkers. Am I actually fielding a Lamenters army, because my chapter badge isn't technically the official GW chapter badge? Am I the Lamenting Angels because my badge is technically different, and can therefore choose any blend of successor tactics? This is the stupidness that results from trying to tie color scheme into army rules.

Sounds more like you should be playing Slaaneshi Marines. :devil:

 

(And no, you aren't stupid.)

 

If you want to field a Lamenters army, then you can. If you'd rather them be a Lamenting Angels, then that's your call. If you want to simply select units from the Blood Angels Codex and not worry about it, then your army will have the Blood Angels keyword by default. As Captain Planet would say - "The choice is yours."

 

But mostly "You silly Slaanesh follower, you." :D

[Rik Lightstar]

As earlier mentioned THE ONLY reason behind the Successor restrictions in the Marine Codexes is so you don't have

 

Detachment 1

Aark Angels

Azreal

 

Detachment 2

Bark Angels

Bzreal

 

Detachment 3

Cark Angels

Czreal

 

Which you KNOW someone would claim dodges the *unique* rule by giving them a different <Chapter> keyword.

 

If your Dark Angels happen to be yellow, then good for you. It wouldn't be MY choice.

 

But then my Mantis Warriors deviate pretty heavily from their established colour scheme while still being recognisable.

 

Rik

[Elzender]

I see what you mean Rik, but in theory the Azrael datasheet cannot have its keywords changed, right? That should prevent this situation from happening.

 

As I see it, if you want to play using Dark Angels rules and characters, the only restriction is that then you must use the Dark Angels keyword, rules and restrictions for all the detachment/army, regardless of the colour of your miniatures, so no mixing rules and characters from different chapters. If then you want to use those same miniatures with another chapter rules in a different game, as long as everything is clearly represented, it should be fair game too. Obviously, it can be a bit confusing if somebody plays a famous chapter with miniatures painted as another famous one, but then it should fall on the player to state it very clearly and to be lenient with mistakes the adversary might make due to confusion.

 

That does not mean I would be very happy with somebody just jumping from one chapter to another just to have the strongest army possible every time or to tailor it against an opponent. But if somebody just wants to change the way of playing a bit, be it out of boredom or just to try something new, why not?

 

I personally think that the most important factor with all these issues is knowing the other player, talking a bit and agreeing on the conditions before playing. If the other player wants to play with different rules just to be stronger against your army, then you're free to decide if you want to play that game or not.

 

Imagine, as an extreme example, that somebody loves space marines of all kinds, and wants to play all the different chapters, but does not like all of their miniatures/colour schemes. That player then decides to make a homebrew chapter, and builds count-as for all special units from the different chapters, from death company to longfangs to ravenwing knights, all following a common theme and colour scheme, but clearly distinguishable as the special unit they represent. I don't think I would mind if that player changed the codex in different battles, as long as he/she clearly stated which codex was using, every unit was clearly identified, and no mixing of rules. Maybe I would prefer if that player did not have detachments with different chapter rules, as that would make it difficult to keep track of, but other than that I don't think it would be a problem.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think if you want to have different Detachments using different Keywords, but all with a common color scheme (such as a Legio B&C army), then you should have some method of visually distinguishing them beyond just the models - a different icon on one of the shoulders, numbering them 1, 2, and 3 on the bases, or even different colored base rims - it's the sporting thing to do. Is it required, no, but typically I like to have an agreement with opponents that if I get confused on what they are playing with, and they can't figure it out, then I get to reassign the unit from their army list, and vice versa. Again, I consider this only fair, and typically puts the onus on me to make sure things are clear and consistent in my army.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Gah, I feel jealous for 'Nids players. All their special characters can belong to any Hive Fleet and take any Adaptation. Color scheme has no reason at all to matter for them, and as such, you can run a Swarmlord, an Old One Eye, a Deathleaper and a Red Terror, all in one Detachment, all with some Hive Fleet keyword different from the one they're fluffed to have (Behemoth for the Swarmlord, Old One Eye and the Red Terror, Leviathan for Deathleaper) and a matching color scheme. Tiamet players can take all of these and have their snow-white Swarmlord and Deathleaper fighting alongside custom "named" Hive Tyrants.

[Panzer]

Gah, I feel jealous for 'Nids players. All their special characters can belong to any Hive Fleet and take any Adaptation. Color scheme has no reason at all to matter for them, and as such, you can run a Swarmlord, an Old One Eye, a Deathleaper and a Red Terror, all in one Detachment, all with some Hive Fleet keyword different from the one they're fluffed to have (Behemoth for the Swarmlord, Old One Eye and the Red Terror, Leviathan for Deathleaper) and a matching color scheme. Tiamet players can take all of these and have their snow-white Swarmlord and Deathleaper fighting alongside custom "named" Hive Tyrants.

Well that's because Tyranids don't really have named characters like other factions. It's just a specific organism the Hivemind can breed into any Hivefleet at will.

 

Also, the irony of being jealous on Tyranids after last edition is great.

[Trench]

To be honest, I have never actually encountered this before, been playing almost twenty years, in very different parts of the UK as I have moved around a lot but to the players who have chosen to collect a specific chapter or other army equivalent the idea of not using their rules is like switching what football team you support, just a strange thing to do.

 

That is not meant to be elitist, I just have never met in person to use an example a Imperial Fists fan who has the desire for his boys to fight like Ultras this week, then White Scars next week & Salamanders the week after depending on the whims of the GW rules writing team or who their opponent is, for good or bad, they are IF players.