Why do people continue to say "Soup?"

[Shinespider]

Alternative Title: Words are Supposed to Mean Things!!!

 

Okay, so this is just me venting.

 

In 7th Edition, you had an allies system that let you stick together different armies. Some people disliked this, others liked it, whatever. It's fine. People had opinions. 

 

In 8th Edition, the new keyword phenomenon introduced a new possibility: "Soup" detachments! You could put 30 guardsmen, 5 space marines, 10 sisters of silence and an Onager Dunecrawler all in the same detachment. People correctly identified that this was very silly, and came up with a silly (and slightly denigrating) word to describe this practice: "Imperial Soup."

 

All of this, so far, is fine.

 

GW agreed that this practice was silly and put a stop to it. The Imperium keyword was disallowed from being used as the basis for a detachment, meaning that to have multiple Imperial codices in the same battleforged army you needed to have full, proper detachments from each one. That is to say, they essentially reinstated the Allies system.

 

Okay, so we're all good, right? Soup no longer exists. There are no more soup lists.

 

Except... people still use the term. They've just expanded it to refer to literally any allies at all. 

Why? 

[The Yncarne]

Shorthand.

 

In the old days allies didn’t need to be from the same faction. You could have Tau and Eldar, Marines and Eldar etc in the same army. Now you (in practice) need to have a shared keyword so soup seems more applicable (the shared keyword) than allies. At least to my oldtard way of thinking.

[Gederas]

Because people don't know what words mean anymore. Look at people using the word decimate in contexts it doesn't work in.

 

You cannot decimate a building. You can destroy, obliterate or annihilate it. Because how do you kill 1/10th of a building with the other 9/10ths?

[Tyriks]

People didn't only use it to describe multiple factions in the same detachment. I heard the term used in 7th as well as 8th (though nowhere near as much).

[RandyB]

"Soup" is a pejorative for "I don't like your list" relative to any list that draws from more than a single codex. Its use says more about the person using it than it does about the lists (and players) they are sneering at.

[Jings]

Language is an ever-evolving thing. Words, especially niche hobby slang, often adapt to different meanings as time goes on. The differences in opinion as to what the term means in this thread already demonstrates that pretty effectively. I mean really, complaining about what the word "soup" originally meant, when in reality it's slang derived from a liquidized savoury dish that you typically just throw different things into, it's quite silly really. The term was for one thing, and then transitioned to the next when the first was removed from the game. 

 

Soup, to me anyway, is a pejorative term for power gaming lists that cherry pick the best units from different sub-factions in the most efficient way possible. Like, a Knight detachment, a minimum Guard Battallion and a three Custodes Bike Captains in a Supreme Command is soup, whereas a balanced, fluffy list designed to represent Guard and Marines having to fight together isn't. 

[War Angel]

I was building up to having an army of 800 pts guard 800 pts Marine and 400 pts of IK, I wouldn’t call it soup, it’s a full course meal. But people Min /Maxing got allies to be considered cheesy, so I guess I’ll save my money.

[Panzer]

Alternative Title: Words are Supposed to Mean Things!!!

 

Okay, so this is just me venting.

 

In 7th Edition, you had an allies system that let you stick together different armies. Some people disliked this, others liked it, whatever. It's fine. People had opinions. 

 

In 8th Edition, the new keyword phenomenon introduced a new possibility: "Soup" detachments! You could put 30 guardsmen, 5 space marines, 10 sisters of silence and an Onager Dunecrawler all in the same detachment. People correctly identified that this was very silly, and came up with a silly (and slightly denigrating) word to describe this practice: "Imperial Soup."

 

All of this, so far, is fine.

 

GW agreed that this practice was silly and put a stop to it. The Imperium keyword was disallowed from being used as the basis for a detachment, meaning that to have multiple Imperial codices in the same battleforged army you needed to have full, proper detachments from each one. That is to say, they essentially reinstated the Allies system.

 

Okay, so we're all good, right? Soup no longer exists. There are no more soup lists.

 

Except... people still use the term. They've just expanded it to refer to literally any allies at all. 

Why? 

 

Soup was never really about having multiple different factions in the same detachment. You are making the same mistake as GW here when they declared that "soup is off the menu" (such a ridiculous claim). Soup is having multiple different factions in the same army and that still exists unchanged.

[Aothaine]

Because people don't know what words mean anymore. Look at people using the word decimate in contexts it doesn't work in.

 

You cannot decimate a building. You can destroy, obliterate or annihilate it. Because how do you kill 1/10th of a building with the other 9/10ths?

 

Ohhh no! I did this. I feel ashamed now. Wait no. I used devastate. I'm good.

 

 

 

Soup was never really about having multiple different factions in the same detachment. You are making the same mistake as GW here when they declared that "soup is off the menu" (such a ridiculous claim). Soup is having multiple different factions in the same army and that still exists unchanged.

 

sfPanzer has the jist of it.

 

I have always used it as a negative term. Most people that use "soup" lists are min/max players that want to win at all costs. Maybe that is how they enjoy the game. But I'm a filthy casual that likes narrative play more than competitive play. So, take my opinion with a teaspoon of salt. I am very biased when it comes to opinions about power gamers.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Because people don't know what words mean anymore. Look at people using the word decimate in contexts it doesn't work in.

 

You cannot decimate a building. You can destroy, obliterate or annihilate it. Because how do you kill 1/10th of a building with the other 9/10ths?

 

decimate

/ˈdɛsɪmeɪt/

verb

 

1. 1.

   kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of.

   "the inhabitants of the country had been decimated"

    
2. 2.

   HISTORICAL

   kill one in every ten of (a group of people, originally a mutinous Roman legion) as a punishment for the whole group.

   "the man who is to determine whether it be necessary to decimate a large body of mutineers"

Words take on new meaning all the time. Languages evolve all the time. The word decimate primarily means to kill, destroy or remove a large proportion of today. That's correct usage today. It's not a matter of people using it that way being ignorant 

[Brother Casman]

Let's not go too far down the rabbit hole of language usage, eh? We should focus on "Soup", I think.

[Gederas]

Because people don't know what words mean anymore. Look at people using the word decimate in contexts it doesn't work in.

 

You cannot decimate a building. You can destroy, obliterate or annihilate it. Because how do you kill 1/10th of a building with the other 9/10ths?

decimate

/ˈdɛsɪmeɪt/

verb

 

1. 1.

   kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of.

   "the inhabitants of the country had been decimated"

    
2. 2.

   HISTORICAL

   kill one in every ten of (a group of people, originally a mutinous Roman legion) as a punishment for the whole group.

   "the man who is to determine whether it be necessary to decimate a large body of mutineers"

Words take on new meaning all the time. Languages evolve all the time. The word decimate primarily means to kill, destroy or remove a large proportion of today. That's correct usage today. It's not a matter of people using it that way being ignorant 

Just because people have used it wrong enough that it becomes a definition, doesn't mean it's right.

 

The same can be said of people calling allies 'soup'. The term soup in the context Warhammer does have a meaning, and it's not that.

 

Let's not go too far down the rabbit hole of language usage, eh? We should focus on "Soup", I think.

Way ahead of you :lol: I was merely using my choice of (commonly misused) word as an example of people using something that has an actual meaning in the wrong context.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

Just because people have used it wrong enough that it becomes a definition, doesn't mean it's right.

 

The same can be said of people calling allies 'soup'. The term soup in the context Warhammer does have a meaning, and it's not that.

 

By that logic your speech contains virtually too many errors to count. If you're not speaking ancient Indo-European, you're doing it WRONG

 

That said soup wasn't really properly defined as a term on account of being gamer slang. I'm pretty sure I saw people reffering to say a knight list with just a guard battery or two as 'soup' even though that would just be a case of 2 dex allies. At what point does the term become legitimately soup if the aforementioned case is not valid? What's the crtical mass of number of allies to qualify as Soup?

 

EDIT: Not to mention the above differs from Shinespider's inital more strict definition that it was soup only when it was mixed allies within the same detachment, which is different from a lot of usage I saw and referenced

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

I feel "soup" is three Codices or more in the same army.

For example, my Knight/Custodes/BA 2k list is a soup list.

Also, don't hate me for running a Knight/Custodes/BA list, it is my attempt to fight back against local powergamers. Plus, I just like the models.

[Fajita Fan]

I started referring to as the "sink" because of the American expression "everything but the kitchen sink" which doesn't make a whole lotta sense anyway. 

[toaae]

I think "soup" is being used instead of "allies", because of the current state of the detachment system. Whereas in 6th (and with Daemonhunters/Witchhunters prior), you got a single CAD for your main faction, and a very restricted detachment for your allies, in 8th, you have basically unlimited choice from up to 3 different factions (plus an assassin, for Imperium). You can take anything from any of those three factions, in multiples if you like, without much concern. In this way, it's more like a "soup", where you are picking the best choices from a few things and mixing it together in a single list.

[Panzer]

 

Because people don't know what words mean anymore. Look at people using the word decimate in contexts it doesn't work in.

 

You cannot decimate a building. You can destroy, obliterate or annihilate it. Because how do you kill 1/10th of a building with the other 9/10ths?

decimate

/ˈdɛsɪmeɪt/

verb

 

1. 1.

   kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of.

   "the inhabitants of the country had been decimated"

    
2. 2.

   HISTORICAL

   kill one in every ten of (a group of people, originally a mutinous Roman legion) as a punishment for the whole group.

   "the man who is to determine whether it be necessary to decimate a large body of mutineers"

Words take on new meaning all the time. Languages evolve all the time. The word decimate primarily means to kill, destroy or remove a large proportion of today. That's correct usage today. It's not a matter of people using it that way being ignorant 

Just because people have used it wrong enough that it becomes a definition, doesn't mean it's right.

 

The same can be said of people calling allies 'soup'. The term soup in the context Warhammer does have a meaning, and it's not that.

 

 

Yes it does, that's how language works. It's not a static system.

Also yes that's exactly what soup in warhammer means. Hence why people were upset when GW declared that soup is off the menu when they prevented mixing factions in the same detachment completely missing the issue at hand. You may not like it but to me it seems you are actually the one who has been using the term soup wrong the whole time. 

[GrinNfool]

Hmm I don't know I feel like there are a few posts here who take "soup" as a negative.  It isn't new to 8th either I heard the term back in 7th too.  My understanding of it has always been its just mixed sub factions of a faction, nothing positive or negative.  You know... like a soup?  I add a bit of this a bit of that and a bit of this other, when making a soup.... lists coming from multiple sub factions of a primary faction sorta work that way so the phrasing makes sense still.  I certainly have never heard nor taken the term soup as a "pejorative".  "Soup" lists do tend to be better than mono codex lists for the factions that can do it though as it allows cherry picking, but thats more of a product of mono codices not getting anything special.  GW seems to be addressing this with the latest marine codex though, as mixing anything non codex loses doctrines for them.

[chapter master 454]

-deep inhale- ahhhhh, that's some vintage worms right there. The can really seals in the smell but as for freshness...well...

 

Why do people use decimate to refer to destroying something or when something takes massive damage when in reality all it means is to remove 1/10 of the object in question? Because words change and evolve as we use them. Words we used years ago are used in completely different ways now or just not at all. New words come and go, the age of the internet has just expedited the process. We refer to things like lol as a word but it isn't actually a word, well it didn't start as one. Back in past days gay just meant happy.

 

In that regard, as the game of 40k changes so do out definitions and short hands. Bolter is a short hand for Boltgun however I would wager a few people refer to bolt rifles as bolters as well which means the word will in time evolve to include those weapons (if not already). Soup meant something completely different back in 7th but now in 8th it refers to anything that isn't all painted one scheme! (I would wager even us marine players would get called soup players if we use a list that included 3 detachments with each being a different chapter despite having angels of death active!)

 

Why do people use it? Because it is useful and a quick reference instead of "I really hate those lists that use multiple different factions/sub-factions in the same list". Same reason we like to try and avoid the melta of the mods, we refer to their ability to lock threads as something else as it is both convenient and fun (though I believe some members of the mod team prefer to use different weapons). I mean...kinda confused by people slinging "firstborn" around but eventually found it meant "old marines" and by all accounts, sounds better and rolls better for conversation sake.

 

So why do people use soup? Because it can be stored in cans, kept for a long time and heck, when you come in tired/or sick it certainly is a lot easy to make than anything else because you throw it in the nearest nuke cabinet and done. Only challenge is finding the power weapon for opening the things or attempt to melee it!

[FlamingDeth]

Y'all need to learn yourselves some memetic mutation in here. Words evolve constantly. They mean what the majority understand them to mean, not what a minority of amateur historic linguists say it used to mean. I mean, unless you're french and have to have your words and definitions approved by a committee.

 

In the context of gamer slang I've always used it as an army of multiple factions with no negative context. A deep striking deathwatch/Inquisition list reinforcing a guard gunline isn't necessarily powergaming, it's a narrative list with the cavalry riding in to save a guard regiment that's about to break, but it's still soup to me.

[Jukkiz]

Most likely because slapping different ingredients in the mix is mostly soup?

Easy to identify in this case

[PeteySödes]

I dunno, I find the people getting upset about the term soup are usually the ones who are using soup for the WAC reasons. I don't think I've really encountered a person using soup as pejorative in itself, just as a descriptor or shorthand.

 

Before i get in trouble, I'm speaking in generalities obviously.

[b1soul]

"Decimated the building" seems rather strange to me

 

Yeah, decimate doesn't necessarily mean kill one tenth anymore, but I think "damage" works better in this context.

[battle captain corpus]

-Thumbs activation rune on Crozius-

 

Keep it in line please folks & remember how your posts can be read by others. Telling others how they should feel/speak etc is bad form and non constructive.

 

This is an interesting topic let’s keep it that way with a degree of civility.

 

BCC

[Closet Skeleton]

Except... people still use the term. They've just expanded it to refer to literally any allies at all. 

Why? 

 

Imperial Soup was used as a term because armies were being used that didn't have a clear 'main' faction. Even after the Battle Brothers errata you still had ITC 'Thousand Sons' players with under a quarter of their points spent on Thousand Sons units. You could call that 'mixed chaos' but soup and mixed have been used synonymously for all of 8th ed.

 

3 Blood Angels Smash captains in a Knight list isn't 'allies', its taking the most optimal units from the Imperium faction together which is exactly the same thing as the Imperial Soup we had at the start of the edition.

 

Allies is taking multiple factions and having them fight side by side. Soup is when ingredients are mixed together and seasoning is sprinkled on top.

 

"Decimated the building" seems rather strange to me

 

Yeah, decimate doesn't necessarily mean kill one tenth anymore, but I think "damage" works better in this context.

 

You could always destroy 3 floors of a 30 story building i guess but thesaurus misuse is definitely a thing.

 

Words change their meaning but if someone is throwing in more complicated words to use the same meaning as common words then if they use those words wrong they're a pretentious prat no matter how much the general meaning shifts.

 

People on British TV use 'epicenter' (a techical word that has a different meaning to center that only exists because of how earthquakes work) to mean 'center' all the time and its bad language use no matter the fact that their general audience understands what they mean and only get confused if they're familiar with the technical language.

 

If you're going to use fancy words wrong at least do it deliberately rather than carelessly.