Inheritors of the Primarch vs Counts-as...

[Mandragola]

Well, gw forces paint schemes to Subfactions in their tournament packet, so it seems pretty obvious their intent isn't for counts as. The last time they actually supported that kind of thing was 5th, and that was a long time ago.

 

They do not.

 

You can read the 2019 Grand Tournament event pack here: https://warhammerworld.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2019/05/40K8_Grand_Tournament_Rules_Pack_2019.pdf

 

Here's the section on Model Requirements

 

 

 

Playing exciting, atmospheric games with painted miniatures is a big part of our events at Warhammer World. With this in mind, all miniatures in your collection must be 100% Citadel or Forge World miniatures, and be fully assembled, painted and based. Each model must completely and accurately represent its entry on your army roster (including all weapons and equipment).

 

If you have painted your models in a specific way, we expect you to use the rules relevant to that scheme. For example, if you have painted your models as Salamanders, your army must have the Salamanders keyword. If you have created your own unique colour scheme, then you may give them any keyword that you wish.

 

If you have used different keywords between Detachments, there must be a clear visual difference between each Detachment. For example, if you have a Tyranid army with Detachments from both Hive Fleet Kraken and Kronos, the models in each Detachment must be clearly distinguishable from one to another such as a different coloured carapace. If you are unsure whether something is clearly distinguishable, contact us via the details at the end of this pack.

 

Finally, you need to contact us to let us know about any conversions you are planning on using, and provide us with photos of the models in question where possible. Don’t worry – we fully appreciate spectacular modelling skills, but we just want to make sure everything is super clear for your opponent so that no confusion can arise during games.

 

To protect everyone’s experience, we will politely ask you to remove any models that don’t meet these standards.

 

This is consistent with how GW has played this since I first went to one of their tournaments in 1999*. If your guys are painted as blood angels then play them as blood angels. If thye're homebrew then use whatever rules you want. If you're using two keywords then your opponent needs to be able to tell them apart.

 

*I mean obviously 3rd edition didn't have some of these issues as there were no allies anyway.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm sorry, how does that contradict what I said? It literally says if they're painted as salamanders you have to use the salamanders rules.

 

You don't get to go "uhh, they're actually ultramarines and here's my guilliman"

[Mandragola]

Right, salamanders are salamanders. But your home brew chapter can count as anything you want. Their intent definitely is for counts as stuff, as they explicitly say. This is the same for the retry much every independent event I’ve been to as well.

 

It’s true that now successor chapters have a bit less freedom in the new codex. Raptors can’t now count as ultramarines, for example, because they’re a recognised raven guard successor.

[Spinsanity]

I still think that at best custom/diy chapters should be allowed to use Inheritors but counts-as shouldn’t be allowed, at least in a tournament setting.

 

I know some have argued this is a clear penalty for anyone who painted their army this way, but I beg to differ. Anyone who painted their models as a known chapter (be they 1st founding or not) is locked into playing a specific CT or at least have a set lineage: I couldn’t play a Novamarines 6th company bikers army as a White Scars counts-as or a White Scars successor because they’re known UM successors.

 

Playing a First Founding chapter (or one of a select few 2nd founding ones) locks you into picking a specific CT, but grants access to special characters.

Playing a known chapter with identified lineage locks you into picking a specific CT.

Playing a homebrew lets you chose which CT best fits your playstyle, but prevents you from selecting any special character.

 

The clear loser here is the known successor, but assuming counts-as is accepted, except for the handful of FW special characters there’d be zero reason whatsoever for GW to even introduce the Inheritors... CT, as a counts-as army is better in pretty much every situation.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Sure, but my point was about recognized schemes being used with others rules.

 

But really, there shouldn't be counts as with the new codex. If salamanders=salamanders and raptors=raptors according to paint scheme, then "made up chapter"=/=ultramarines. Especially with the stipulations that your chapter's background represents their ability to select rules from the supplements and if your chapter isn't on the table of page 175 you get to go right to the successor page.

[Marshal van Trapp]

So what about my Black Templar that are painted dark grey and bone instead of black and white? Should I also skip right to the successors page because they arent exactly the correct scheme? And dont even say chapter symbols, because there are 4 raven guard successor chapters that all use the base black raven symbol as RG

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea I was really talking about different shades on the official colours. Or maybe, I was talking about if you called your scheme ultramarines and expected to get the full rules.

 

Purple and orange marines aren't ultramarines. Black templars aren't ultramarines.

[Marshal van Trapp]

My point was that if I made a variation on a color scheme i shouldn't be bound to different rules just because of it, if i wanted to paint my marines like ultramarines but without the ultra symbol and call them a successor i shouldn't have to play them as ultra marines, do you have any idea how many red schemes official exist?! Who is to say my blood red marines are blood Angel's and not red templars, blood ravens, crimson templars... the point is if I paint all my dudes from the same rules chapter one cohesive scheme it shouldn't matter...

 

My successor chapter idea is going to have different schemes for each company and just one arm/shoulderpad is going to be gold with the other pad having the chapter symbol on a white background, should I then have to run each company as different rules because they dont have exactly the same scheme?

 

Where do the demands that I paint MY little soldiers how OTHER people want them end and I get to enjoy my hobby?

[Malakithe]

I want to make a custom chapter but use ultramarines rulesets. What would I do? Do like before and say its a successor therefore having access to everything except chapter specific characters and chapter relics? Or pick Inheritors and...do the same thing? I guess...it all sounds the same to me

[Bryan Blaire]

Again, for folks that don't read the rules as written, here's what is stated for the game:

KEYWORDS

Throughout this book you will come across the <CHAPTER> keyword. This is shorthand for a keyword of your choosing, as described below.

 

<CHAPTER>

All Space Marines units are drawn from a Chapter. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Chapter it is from and then replace the <CHAPTER> keyword in every instance on its datasheet with the name of your chosen Chapter. This could be one of the Chapters detailed in this book or another Warhammer 40,000 publication, or one of your own design.

 

For example, if you include a Captain in your army, and you decide he is from the Blood Ravens Chapter, his <CHAPTER> keyword becomes BLOOD RAVENS and his Rites of Battle ability reads ‘Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made by models in friendly BLOOD RAVENS units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.’

 

You cannot choose the BLOOD ANGELS, DARK ANGELS, DEATHWATCH, GREY KNIGHTS, LEGION OF THE DAMNED or SPACE WOLVES keyword when nominating which Chapter a unit is from. Rules for these Chapters are detailed in other publications. In addition, LIBRARIAN units cannot be from the BLACK TEMPLARS Chapter.

And the Successor part:

“SUCCESSOR CHAPTERS

When you include an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit in your army that has the <CHAPTER> keyword (see Codex: Space Marines), you must decide what Chapter that unit is from. Unless you choose one of the First Founding Chapters available to you (White Scars, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Salamanders or Raven Guard), then your Chapter is a successor Chapter, and you should decide which of the aforementioned First Founding Chapters it is a successor of.

 

If the successor Chapter you have chosen is one established in the background of our publications, its founding Chapter will often be known (for example, the Mortifactors Chapter is a known successor of the Ultramarines). If the successor Chapter you have chosen does not have a known founding Chapter but has the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic, and you selected the Chapter Tactic of a First Founding Chapter, your chosen Chapter is a successor of that First Founding Chapter. Otherwise, choose a founding Chapter that best fits your successor Chapter’s character.

So, as anyone can note, the main point in all of this is that "you choose" the Keyword you are going to use for your force. It doesn't specify that your paint scheme must be anything to choose a Keyword, but it does specify that if "you choose" a Successor Chapter from the lore, you use the known First Founding, but again doesn't specify a paint scheme requirement.

 

Your pink and grey Marines are Ultramarines and you can have Marneus if you choose. I wouldn't, but you can if you want - in my head they'll automatically be blue anyway, if I'm fighting the Ultramarines.

 

Those are rules, plain and simple. I get that it upsets some people, but that's how GW wrote the rules. If GW had wanted to include their internal "house rules" for their tournaments regarding paint schemes, they would have (and still can, that's what Errata are for - write in a FAQ request to have them included), but they did not include them for general use in the game (I am 100% sure that's how they play in Studio though - my guess is that they use a lot of house rules overall), but they didn't - the statements from the GW tourney pack are not in the rules. It also follows that's if they had to write them into the tourney pack, logic dictates it's because they weren't written as rules elsewhere - hence their need to write them for their internal tourney use.

 

An implication that a paint scheme equates to rules is not upheld by said rules - which are written above by GW and each time state "you choose" or a variation of this. If you want to play by some rules that say otherwise, that's great, being dedicated to the fluff (or anything else) can be a fun past time for some, but it isn't the game rules - so that would be a house rule.

 

The key for anyone playing should be to keep their forces consistent so as not to confuse their opponents (it's good sportsmanship, but honestly even that isn't required in the rules any more - WYSIWYG isn't in there any more).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Where do the demands that I paint MY little soldiers how OTHER people want them end and I get to enjoy my hobby?

Those demands are now, as they once were, baked into the rules.

 

That being said, unless you're playing in a GT or some other high-end tournament I doubt anyone will care so long as you're clear before the game on what Chapter Tactics you're using. As for your scenarios, you're overthinking it. It's not *just* color scheme, it's also iconography. Your army is red? That could be any of a hundred official chapters...but if it's red with a Chapter icon of a winged teardrop in black I'm going out on a limb and saying they're Blood Angels. Each company in your DIY is different colors? Okay, sure. Nowhere in the Chapter Tactics rules does it say your whole army has to be uniform, and since it's your DIY then you determine what is lore-appropriate for a Tactic. It's also in the lore - in the Codex Astartes no less - that Chapters should deploy with variant heraldry, schemes, and camouflage in order to confuse enemy reconnaissance.

 

These rules are in place not to constrain someone like you. They're intended to constrain someone who has an army painted in Ultramarine colors with Ultramarine icons from claiming they're actually an Iron Hands Successor called the Blue Toilet Seats because they like the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics better than the Ultramarine ones.

[Malakithe]

 If the successor Chapter you have chosen does not have a known founding Chapter but has the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic, and you selected the Chapter Tactic of a First Founding Chapter, your chosen Chapter is a successor of that First Founding Chapter. Otherwise, choose a founding Chapter that best fits your successor Chapter’s character.

 

Thats just repeating the same thing. Why even include Inheritors at all then? If you pick Inheritors you pick a chapter, if you dont pick Inheritors but you decide to be a successor...you still pick a chapter.

[Bryan Blaire]

Those demands are now, as they once were, baked into the rules.

 

They're intended to constrain someone who has an army painted in Ultramarine colors with Ultramarine icons from claiming they're actually an Iron Hands Successor called the Blue Toilet Seats because they like the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics better than the Ultramarine ones.

Care to quote the paint scheme constraint rule? Unless you can, it's not a game rule, therefore not a constraint.

 

Where do the demands that I paint MY little soldiers how OTHER people want them end and I get to enjoy my hobby?

They end at the rules where it says that you, the player of the army, chooses which Chapter Keyword you are using. No one else gets to.

 

They can choose not to play you based on their personal preferences, but that's always the case.

 

If the successor Chapter you have chosen does not have a known founding Chapter but has the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic, and you selected the Chapter Tactic of a First Founding Chapter, your chosen Chapter is a successor of that First Founding Chapter. Otherwise, choose a founding Chapter that best fits your successor Chapter’s character.

 

Thats just repeating the same thing. Why even include Inheritors at all then? If you pick Inheritors you pick a chapter, if you dont pick Inheritors but you decide to be a successor...you still pick a chapter.

Because this is what Inheritors of the Primarch says:

Inheritors of the Primarch

So closely do this Chapter’s warriors cleave to the strategic doctrines of their genetic forebears that only their heraldry marks them out as unique from the First Founding Chapter they emulate.

 

If you select this Successor Tactic you cannot select a second. Select one of the following Chapters and use the Chapter Tactic of that Chapter as listed on page 175: Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands.

 

Designer's Note: If, in the background of our publications, your Chapter is a known successor of a specific First Founding Chapter (for example, the Storm Lords Chapter is a known successor of the White Scars), then if you select this Successor Tactic you must select the Chapter Tactic of that First Founding Chapter.

So the statement is a rule feeds back to the Inheritors of the Primarch Tactic selection in the main C:SM. If you don't pick Inheritors, you pick your Tactics a different way, it isn't assigned.

[Malakithe]

Sounds like ill just stick with the good ol fashion 'im using ultramarines' for my custom chapter lol i like doing homebrew successors. Not so much a fan as doing the whole 'count-as' for special characters and such though...but man I would love a Chapter Champion for my custom chapter

[RandomMarine]

I'll just say the second anyone says my IH which are painted in a non standard but canon scheme (hh era clan morragul veterans) aren't IH so I don't get to use our soon to be released Ironfather, I'll laugh in their face and walk away from the table as they'd be factually incorrect and a douchebag.

 

Honestly as long as you are clear as to what tactics your using idont really see the issue

[Medjugorje]

Personally it shouldn't matter. I paint my marines as ultras, if I want to use one half as ultras and another as dark angels then that should be ok as long as you can tell which unit belongs to which chapter. It does irritate me that GW do not allow this in their tournaments. Why paint an army in an official colour scheme as it just restricts you.

It would be like a facepunch...  I started with my Black Templars in 3rd Edition and later in 6th Edition i had very bad rules for them. Not just for competitve gaming... in all Kind of playing.

 

[Mandragola]

 

Personally it shouldn't matter. I paint my marines as ultras, if I want to use one half as ultras and another as dark angels then that should be ok as long as you can tell which unit belongs to which chapter. It does irritate me that GW do not allow this in their tournaments. Why paint an army in an official colour scheme as it just restricts you.

It would be like a facepunch...  I started with my Black Templars in 3rd Edition and later in 6th Edition i had very bad rules for them. Not just for competitve gaming... in all Kind of playing.

 

 

GW will prevent someone from using half an army painted as ultramarines as ultramarines and the other half as dark angels. So will most other organised events. 

 

For example, check out this quote from the Nova Open Primer (https://novaopen.sharepoint.com/:w:/g/EXkKRx2bChpLoOIwPpkTAvkBiivZ23n8qz3fODGShWyTLQ?rtime=sYFnYIEo10g)

 

 

 

Different <Faction> type keywords must be clearly represented within your army; it is unacceptable, for instance, to include both <Ultramarine> and <Dark Angels> Space Marines in an army together with all of them painted as Ultramarines.

 

This is so your opponent understands what's going on. I would be surprised not to see this rule in place at any organised event - not just GW ones. GW does impose an additional rule that you can only use their minis at their events, while some other people will allow other stuff.

 

My impression is that there really isn't an issue here. The rules explicitly say that you get to choose who your army is, so long as it's not explicitly painted as something else. In my experience, people who paint their armies using a set scheme generally want to play as that faction - though they'll still grumble about how their rules are worse than everyone else's.

[Medjugorje]

fully painted as a request is okay. But if (for example) my Blood Angels are weak as hell (like GK) and GW wouldnt allow it to Play as Ultramarines...

[Spinsanity]

At tournaments, most (every?) player expects WYSIWYG to be enforced.

 

How is requesting you follow paint schemes that represents your chapter any different from requesting you use the adequate bits to represent the weapons your models use?

[Schlitzaf]

Also guys once again stuff like GT are big photo ops. Where they’ll be taking a lot of photos to be uploaded onto there website and otherwise for promotional reasons. And in those photos they generally want to caption saying “(Named character or chapter UU) Leading or charging against (faction, recognizable unit or named character)”.

 

Having a Gulliman painted as Red for example would automatically exclude said photo because it’s not representative of what GW wants people to see. Or someone might ask “why Gulliman in this photo blue and in another one red?” So on and so forth.

 

For all you complaining “why cannot I be Ultra Rules as (Weaker Chapter)” is because well to put a cynical reason, well money. Or more accurately that GW wants good photo ops. The main time or only time I see proper paint and GW only models really enforced is when photos are being taken.

[Mandragola]

Actually I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a red Guilliman at a GW tournament. I’ve certainly seen an all gold one representing the emperor (accurately or not) leading a custodes army.

 

The GW GT rules pack doesn’t say you can’t have red ultramarines. In fact it explicitly says you can. The restriction it gives you is that if you have blue ultramarines painted with all the white toilet seats and so on, then you have to play them as ultramarines and not blood angels.

[Schlitzaf]

Actually I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a red Guilliman at a GW tournament. I’ve certainly seen an all gold one representing the emperor (accurately or not) leading a custodes army.

 

The GW GT rules pack doesn’t say you can’t have red ultramarines. In fact it explicitly says you can. The restriction it gives you is that if you have blue ultramarines painted with all the white toilet seats and so on, then you have to play them as ultramarines and not blood angels.

Fair copt, my main point stands they do that still for photo reasons to not be confusing.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I too wish feel entitled that my orks should be ultramarines because other people have no say on what the model represents

[Dracos]

 ... and now it feels like this topic is ready to be closed given the tone of the conversation is taking

[Marshal van Trapp]

I too wish feel entitled that my orks should be ultramarines because other people have no say on what the model represents

We arent talking about models, we are talking about their paint scheme, paint scheme should not dictate rules in a game system built by a company that just "sells models not rules"

 

By your same hyperbolic thought process should orks painted blue with a white ultramarines symbol count as ultramarines just because that is how they're painted?