How to Deal with That Guy who Ignores Errata

[mughi3]

I think GW leaves a lot of holes with the rules, and we have to accept that there will be FAQs.

 

They have a very quick and busy release schedule so it's bound to happen. There are loopholes with actual LAWS

When it comes to laws, when people commit a crime it isn't a loophole in the law. it's a criminal act. the problem GW has always had is rules as written VS rules as intended.

 

I think this has it's origins in the fact that the writers come from an English -narrative play among friends- kind of environment. not one where your going to have power gamers looking for any way to justify the wording of the rules to give them a tactical advantage in list design or rules application in a competitive environment.

 

 

markosian

The person making the claim has the burden of truth. just saying "I heard about this new rule change", doe not mean you actually have heard about a legitimate rules change or manage to actually remember all the parts/wording of the new rule. by producing a copy for everybody to read clarifies what it actually says.

[CaptainMarsh]

In an era where anyone can open up a smartphone or tablet and access the free FAQs swiftly, I don't buy the excuse or the onus being on the person pointing out the rule. When you play a game you are making a social contract and part of that is knowing your own rules. Part of knowing your own rules is keeping up with any changes, which GW has made easier than ever before to keep on top of. Not being able to do so for a period of time or being ignorant for a short period is fully understandable, though in both cases the moment the changes are verified they need to be adhered to. But after a certain point, the onus is on the individual to fulfill their end of that social contract.

[Slasher956]

The club I  play at has a whatsapp group just for 40k*... got a rules querry, or fluff question ask away at any time... and we will quote you chapter and verse as to why... so when it comes to playing games its a case of 'yeah X rule has changed' ... 'ok' 

 

or if its some one new/ not in the group who mentions it theres normally at least one other person in the club who knows that army* who will correct /support the statement

 

 

*we have 1 for most game systems/ settings that we play plus a general chat one..

[Ishagu]

 

I think GW leaves a lot of holes with the rules, and we have to accept that there will be FAQs.

 

They have a very quick and busy release schedule so it's bound to happen. There are loopholes with actual LAWS

When it comes to laws, when people commit a crime it isn't a loophole in the law. it's a criminal act. the problem GW has always had is rules as written VS rules as intended.

 

I think this has it's origins in the fact that the writers come from an English -narrative play among friends- kind of environment. not one where your going to have power gamers looking for any way to justify the wording of the rules to give them a tactical advantage in list design or rules application in a competitive environment.

 

 

markosian

The person making the claim has the burden of truth. just saying "I heard about this new rule change", doe not mean you actually have heard about a legitimate rules change or manage to actually remember all the parts/wording of the new rule. by producing a copy for everybody to read clarifies what it actually says.

Who's talking about crimes? I'm saying some laws literally have loopholes.

If laws aren't perfect, you can't expect a tabletop ruleset to be.

 

People should be using the FAQs and Erratas. It's not hard to do so.

[mughi3]

In an era where anyone can open up a smartphone or tablet and access the free FAQs swiftly, I don't buy the excuse or the onus being on the person pointing out the rule. When you play a game you are making a social contract and part of that is knowing your own rules. Part of knowing your own rules is keeping up with any changes, which GW has made easier than ever before to keep on top of. Not being able to do so for a period of time or being ignorant for a short period is fully understandable, though in both cases the moment the changes are verified they need to be adhered to. But after a certain point, the onus is on the individual to fulfill their end of that social contract.

I stopped buying anything GW a long time ago(last odd thing was a reaver when titanicus came out for epic scale play, before that was late 5th edition). fortunately one of our younger players literally buys GW stuff constantly including all the new codexes, expansions and so on. he is usually nice enough to update everybody via his books or digital FAQs. speaking from experience though we have had times where the FAQ wasn't available and we were not willing to just go with somebodies claim without the details. it's like using a FW unit and forgetting the bring the rules with you. I always have a copy with me.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

In an era where anyone can open up a smartphone or tablet and access the free FAQs swiftly, I don't buy the excuse or the onus being on the person pointing out the rule. When you play a game you are making a social contract and part of that is knowing your own rules. Part of knowing your own rules is keeping up with any changes, which GW has made easier than ever before to keep on top of. Not being able to do so for a period of time or being ignorant for a short period is fully understandable, though in both cases the moment the changes are verified they need to be adhered to. But after a certain point, the onus is on the individual to fulfill their end of that social contract.

I stopped buying anything GW a long time ago(last odd thing was a reaver when titanicus came out for epic scale play, before that was late 5th edition). fortunately one of our younger players literally buys GW stuff constantly including all the new codexes, expansions and so on. he is usually nice enough to update everybody via his books or digital FAQs. speaking from experience though we have had times where the FAQ wasn't available and we were not willing to just go with somebodies claim without the details. it's like using a FW unit and forgetting the bring the rules with you. I always have a copy with me.

So do you not buy any codexes or rulebooks or anything and instead just rely on this one guy to provide everything you need? No offence but that sounds like a nightmare scenario.

 

And how does it work for your opponent’s codex faq/errata? If I wanted my opponent to abide by the latest rules for his army am I also obliged to print out and bring their faq/errata with me to prove to them that their unit functions in a different way to their codex?

 

As Captain Marsh says, if you’re outright refusing to keep up with changes to the game rules (when they’re provided free of charge) it’s unfair to expect the player who wants to play by the rules to have to drag you along by providing copies of the latest general faqs for the game.

 

FW stuff is different because I wouldn’t expect my opponent to have access or to have known to look up the rules for a particular unit I may own. In that case I would definitely bring a copy of the rules for them. But having to walk people through (and prove) every little change GW has made to the rules since 8th started at every step of the game is not only time consuming it puts an unfair burden on that player. It’s up to both players (unless one of them is new) to come to the game fully prepared.

[mughi3]

I think I should clarify

I have worked at a game store running late night gaming on Saturdays for the last decade or so- I currently play and bring with me to the store-

 

2 armies for 5th edition hybrid 40K, 1 army for 8th edition 40K, 3 armies for 8th edition 40K in epic scale, a warmachine army, 2 dust armies(soon to be 3), a victory at sea fleet, narns for Babylon 5 wars, star wars and star trek ships for the conversions for B5 wars, a large force of infinity models, a couple lances of battletech + all the rule books/control sheets for the above(+ various codexes from previous editions) + terrain mats (I have my own terrain stored at the store)

 

So no I don't buy any of the codexes or updates for 40K, I have a bunch on PDF and we have some store copies of some books but mainly yes this one guy buys most of the new releases and he shares with us because he is part of the regular gaming group and plays 40K/epic 40K as his primary game(he has some warmachine but he hardly supports any other game he likes to play, (but we share our stuff so it all works out).

 

It actually is far from being a nightmare as we have a great gaming group, our #1 rule in the group is don't be a jerk. we regularly share minis, books, dice, tape measures etc.. among the group and doubly so for new players wanting to try out the various games we play.

 

An addendum-

Now that I have had time to mull it over aside from the situation mentioned above. most of the players in our group lived through 5 editions of 40K and the shinanigans that GW pulled along the way. including the local death of 40K that was 6 th edition( went from 3 games every Saturday on average to mabey 1 every couple months of 5th edition). I think it was about that time that most of us really stopped caring about keeping up with the FAQs/errata since nobody was really playing the game as most of us switched over to warmahorde, infinity or some other system.

 

7th saw a small resurgence. then 8th brought a lot of people back with the complete index release set which the store had copies to use for free. the real advantage we saw with it was being so simplified it made epic scale play viable and at a much reduced cost. considering we have a large battletech community that plays in the same scale it was an easy switch.

 

As there are a few people keen on keeping up with 8th they keep the group up to date with all the new changes. many of our player group still prefer to use a modified form of 5th edition because of the over simplification in 8th that really breaks the immersion in 28mm play.

[Vermintide]

 

We have 2 rules at our FLGS when it comes to GW errata/FAQs-

 

1. To use it you must provide a copy either physical or digital for everybody to read. telling us about it does not count (same for unit rules such as FW)

 

2.is it a dumb rule change? as an example in 7th when they decided only one trooper in a squad could throw a grenade when you had to spend points on them for every member of the squad- we agreed as a group, if all you're troopers have them and you paid for them then you can all throw them if you have the range.

I certainly agree about ridiculous rules that they’ve either added in on purpose or by mistake due to poor wording etc. There’s been a lot of those in all the editions I’ve played.

 

For your first point though, I’m not so sure. It sounds like you’re putting the onus/burden to do extra work on the guy who wants to play by the rules. If you turned up to any sporting event, even a friendly match the default would surely be to play with the most current, up to date rules? If you’re not wanting to play by the most current rules (which is a perfectly fine position) then my personal view is that you’re the one expecting others to deviate to accommodate you and therefore any burden in terms of extra work/bringing extra stuff/agreeing stuff beforehand should be on you.

 

It’s nothing personal against your group and it clearly works for you, it just seems to have the emphasis the wrong way round; that the person who wants to go by the FAQs is the one who is making an unusual request and has to be accommodated by the others

 

 

Do you recall playing this game in a time before the internet? If a guy told you "Oh my Marines have this new rule where they can always rapid fire when they stand still. It was in the new WD" you'd quite rightly tell him "Oh yeah? Show me."

 

It's a lot easier to access FAQs and stuff now, sure, but if the majority of a group claims it hasn't heard about a rule, it's only good sportsmanship to show them. Then, it can become the new group norm. House Rules are a thing because it's a complicated game and, like any game, you're never playing the official rules. You're playing the rules as a consensus of your group. Even when you play big tournaments, it's not official, it's the TO's interpretation.

 

When you're playing pool at a bar do you play ball in hand for a foul? What do you do when you play a friendly game with someone who plays differently?

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

We have 2 rules at our FLGS when it comes to GW errata/FAQs-

 

1. To use it you must provide a copy either physical or digital for everybody to read. telling us about it does not count (same for unit rules such as FW)

 

2.is it a dumb rule change? as an example in 7th when they decided only one trooper in a squad could throw a grenade when you had to spend points on them for every member of the squad- we agreed as a group, if all you're troopers have them and you paid for them then you can all throw them if you have the range.

I certainly agree about ridiculous rules that they’ve either added in on purpose or by mistake due to poor wording etc. There’s been a lot of those in all the editions I’ve played.

 

For your first point though, I’m not so sure. It sounds like you’re putting the onus/burden to do extra work on the guy who wants to play by the rules. If you turned up to any sporting event, even a friendly match the default would surely be to play with the most current, up to date rules? If you’re not wanting to play by the most current rules (which is a perfectly fine position) then my personal view is that you’re the one expecting others to deviate to accommodate you and therefore any burden in terms of extra work/bringing extra stuff/agreeing stuff beforehand should be on you.

 

It’s nothing personal against your group and it clearly works for you, it just seems to have the emphasis the wrong way round; that the person who wants to go by the FAQs is the one who is making an unusual request and has to be accommodated by the others

Do you recall playing this game in a time before the internet? If a guy told you "Oh my Marines have this new rule where they can always rapid fire when they stand still. It was in the new WD" you'd quite rightly tell him "Oh yeah? Show me."

 

It's a lot easier to access FAQs and stuff now, sure, but if the majority of a group claims it hasn't heard about a rule, it's only good sportsmanship to show them. Then, it can become the new group norm. House Rules are a thing because it's a complicated game and, like any game, you're never playing the official rules. You're playing the rules as a consensus of your group. Even when you play big tournaments, it's not official, it's the TO's interpretation.

 

When you're playing pool at a bar do you play ball in hand for a foul? What do you do when you play a friendly game with someone who plays differently?

I’m afraid I don’t understand your pool reference but I get the gist of what you’re saying :)

 

At the risk of sounding naive, if someone said their marines had this particular rule from white dwarf or wherever I’d probably be happy to accept their word for it as I’m not a particularly competitive player (I enjoy the spectacle of the table and some fun moments generally).

 

The main point you make though I partly agree with. If my specific army had some new update or something or the faq was very recent then I’d be happy to show people something because I wouldn’t expect people to keep up with changes to my army if they don’t play it.

 

However the faqs and errata are about more than just individual army changes. They’re changes to the general rules of the game. Once an FAQ has been out for a reasonable length of time I believe players are under a sportsmanlike obligation to keep up to date with changes to the game. It shouldn’t be my job to be proving to my opponent that rule changes made months ago are in effect.

 

My main point is that, although I would be happy to show someone a rule if necessary, I don’t think the onus should be on me to keep them up to date on the rules if they haven’t made the effort to do so themselves. The burden should be on everyone to come to the game with an understanding of any changes unless they have only just been released.

[Kilofix]

Wait, I’m just getting to this whole thread:

 

This “friend”, knows of the existence of the errata, and knows what it says, but voluntarily chooses to ignore it, because “reasons”, in order to abuse use of the original RAW?

 

Really?

[BitsHammer]

Something my old gaming group in New York did was keep a copy of thr most recent FAQs in a binder with tabs for each army. Simple, clean, and everyone gets access to it.

 

As for the friend "I only play with what I bought" is a good rule for not playing with a codex you got off the internet instead of the real deal, but it's a horrible rule for the FAQs. If you're going to plag an online game you have to have the most up to date patches installed. Using the most recent FAQ is no different.

[Halandaar]

Something my old gaming group in New York did was keep a copy of thr most recent FAQs in a binder with tabs for each army. Simple, clean, and everyone gets access to it.

 

As for the friend "I only play with what I bought" is a good rule for not playing with a codex you got off the internet instead of the real deal, but it's a horrible rule for the FAQs. If you're going to plag an online game you have to have the most up to date patches installed. Using the most recent FAQ is no different.

Good shout on patches as a comparison; a game has a consistent ruleset which is enforced at the central level by the people who design the game, whether it be new content or balance updates. If you don't have the latest version, you aren't typically able to play against those who do.

 

Houseruling or in the case of the OP's opponent, choosing to ignore certain updates, is the tabletop equivalent of private servers. They've opted to play an unofficial version of the game. Sure, that's their prerogative and other people may opt to join them, but the majority will not and they shouldn't expect that majority to accommodate them.

[Marshal Reinhard]

How to Deal with That Guy who Ignores Errata

 

 Ignore That Guy?

[Emicus]

Hey, play whatever edition, faq no faq, houserule you want.

 

Just be upfront about it.

 

If I get asked to play 40k, I expect that to be current 40k. The onus isn't on me to know it's 7th Ed with a twist, and you shouldn't try to tell me current 40k is a scam because computers are expensive.

 

If you ask me to play something special on the other hand... I'd probably still say no, but at least we're on the same page about the game we are playing.

 

And playing without the faq is just weird... It's not the same game everyone else is playing anymore. Forums and chats with mates just get weird when you takk about units or combos that don't exist anymore.

[mughi3]

If I get asked to play 40k, I expect that to be current 40k. The onus isn't on me to know it's 7th Ed with a twist, and you shouldn't try to tell me current 40k is a scam because computers are expensive.

 

If you ask me to play something special on the other hand... I'd probably still say no, but at least we're on the same page about the game we are playing.

So what's the point of asking, if you're just going to say no?

 

A regular at the store yesterday asked for us to play 30K with him since he build up a nice HH army for loyalist luna wolves, it's 7th edition-modified without hull points because we think they are dumb (having a wound count and a damage chart at the same time is redundant). so we agreed, we have no problem playing a different edition. just like the guys who love playing second. it's a different game entirely with the same models in our collection.

 

From experience I have found playing the same game system exclusively and often like we do leads to burnout-variety is best rather it's a different edition, or a different game entirely, which is why I play so many.

[BitsHammer]

If you don't ask to play with mods (to borrow the video game analogy again) and just spring stuff on people they're going to feel cheated. Better to ask than be That Guy.

[MegaVolt87]

Since that guy doesn't like FAQ's, should be ok for you to play against him using pre FAQ knights. I bet he starts being pro FAQ then lol. 

[Demoulius]

I think the situation would depend on a few things....

 

1: Would he use the rules if you printed them/showed them to him?

2: Is he doing this to get a certain advantage or did he always have this stance on faq's/errata?

3: How does the rest of the gaming group deal with it?

 

If the anwser to #1 is no, then why? Paying for something doesent make that thing official. It seems like a weird criterea to me.

 

Whats the anwser to #2? Does he keep doing this even if he is disadvantaged at other places for example? Or does he cherry pick?

 

The overall gaming group is also important I feel. If hes the only one who refuses to play by the same rules then why would you allow this? If more people in the gaming group have this stance then how in godsname does everyone renember which 'version' of the rules to use?

 

Overall though it sounds weird to me. The erreta and faq's are official updates and as much as they are a pain in the backside to keep track off; everyone playing by the same rules is only fair.

[Frostglaive]

The FAQs are official rules. They are also free to download. At the very least in my local meta, every player either has a physical or digital copy, or knows someone who knows the FAQs and errata. Unless both parties in this game agree to not use them, there should be no excuse to not use official 40k rules.

 

With that said, here's how I deal with this possible situation: if my opponent refuses to use the FAQs/errata in our game, they had better tell me before the game starts. And they had better give me a good reason as to why they aren't using it. Because otherwise, I refuse to play a game against you. If they don't have access to them, I do and I'll show them to you and explain them. If they want to do a customized game, I may be more lenient towards doing something like that, so long as it's relatively balanced. If they just don't like them and refuse, then go find someone else to play against.

[Exilyth]

You could try to sneak some folded paper sheets w/the copy of the errata between the back pages of that guys codex while they're not looking.

 

Then again, talking to them about the issue and/or refusing to play people who do not use the errata is probably easier and more effective though.