Intercessor grenade launcher, when to use it?

[War Angel]

Has anyone ever done the math on when is it better to fire the grenade as opposed to just shooting the guns?

[The Unseen]

Only when your not getting 2 shots basically.

I ran the math at the start of 8th.

There are some edge cases against stuff like rubric marines in cover, since they'll have a 2+ vs regular bolt rifles but a 3+ vs a krak grenade for example.

Or against multi wound T5 things.

But if your getting just 1 shot either option is almost a straight upgrade vs what you'd expect (Rolling a 1 for the frag vs GeQ feels pretty bad though)

 

I doubt either are ever better than the new assault variety if it's in range, as 3 shots with a mediocre profile is better than the 1 krak shot, and d6 lasgun shots is worse than 3 bolter shots most of the time. And if your using the stalker variety and not using the strat, the krak is only better if the target has a poor save and T5 or T6, or T8, as otherwise the improved AP and damage of the stalker means it's better on average.

 

It's probably worth the 1 pt if your anticipating your intercessors moving, and you think they'll have chaff infantry to lob a frag at.

[GrinNfool]

Its marginal is the answer at least when you are double tapping, and not benefiting from tactical doctrine.  Against GEQ a frag (on average) is barely better then double tapping intercessor though of course a d6 creates extremes, sometimes its terrible other times it will kill 5-6 who knows.  Vs multiwound krak is generally better, again barely. so against most armies you can find a use for it, at least if you are willing to brave the RNG of d6s/d3s.  Still... averages say that the grenade launcher vs a good selection of targets out performs double tapping bolt rifle. assuming you don't have tactical doctrine up for the bonus ap.  Obviously if you have the assault doctrine going the grenade launcher should be used vs most everything.

 

If you aren't double tapping the grenade launcher is much better.

[Panzer]

Well basically,

• Krak: if your target has multiple wounds or high toughness
• Frag: if your target has low T and/or bad armour save
• Bolt rifle: for anything else (which is mostly regular Marines to be fair)

That being said Frag is rather swingy as you have to roll for the amount of shots and the numbers below are for the average of 3.5 you'd get over many many uses.

 

Average wounds against:

[Target]: Bolt Rifle / Krak / Frag

T3: 0.89 / 0.56 / 1.17

T4: 0.67 / 0.45 / 0.78

T5: 0.44 / 0.44 / 0.78

T6: 0.44 / 0.33 / 0.39

Actual damage against some more concrete targets:

[Target]: Bolt Rifle / Krak / Frag

Cultist: 0.89 / 0.56 / 0.97

Firewarriror: 0.59 / 0.37 / 0.58

Marine: 0.33 / 0.22 / 0.26

Terminator: 0.22 / 0.30 / 0.13

Primaris: 0.33 / 0.44 / 0.26

Primaris T5: 0.22 / 0.44 / 0.26

 

 

 

EDIT: things of course change dramatically depending on the active Doctrine now with the new Codex.

[CaptainMarsh]

Firing a Krak Grenade at 30 inches gives you some decent pop if you're not able to get Rapid Fire to go off with the Bolt Rifle. It would only be better against the ABR and SBR if firing at, I'm assuming T5+ (Exception: T7 for the SBR).

[Ishagu]

I've used Krak to hit a t6 vehicle a few times and it has done some damage.

 

It's 1 point. If you have a few points spare take it. If not don't worry about it - that's how I look at it.

[MajorNese]

Absolutely, the grenade launcher is nice.

I always equip it, not that 1p per unit would be noticeable in a primaris army. Though it did help me in the past here and there against multiwound stuff and T5, or unusual situations like showering that archon with shrapnel to overload the shield.

 

With bolt rifles, the grenades are more useful when Bolter Discipline doesn't apply (moving and not UM).

With autobolt rifles, it has longer range.

The extra versatility is nice to have, though the impact is not as great as that of classic special weapons - which cost a lot more than 1p. In the end, even the rule of cool would be enough to have it, in practice you rarely fill your list to the last point anyway.

[PiñaColada]

I mean the grenades are pretty significantly improved now, considering they're getting a bump to AP T1, so they're minimising the weakness they had in the past IMO. Also, salamanders rerolls (if you play them, or choose that tactic) are better spent on a krak grenade than any bolter shot with a possible exception to SBRs. 

[Captain Idaho]

That's what I was going to say - an AP-2 Krak grenade (D3 damage) is a fairly nice little pot shot.

[Panzer]

I did some more numbers crunching, this time with the Combat Doctrines and also the Auto Bolt Rifle and the Stalker Bolt Rifle for comparison.

 

Against non-heavy(ish) infantry (neither high toughness nor multi-wound):
Clear winner is the Auto Bolt Rifle. Even when the Tactical Doctrine isn't active the damage output is comparable to the Frag grenade when the Devastator Doctrine is active. The rest doesn't even compare, though Bolt Rifles with Tactical Doctrine is still decent.
-> If you are in the list building stage and want a unit to deal with non-heavy(ish) infantry, take the Auto Bolt Rifle. If you are mid-game and didn't take Auto Bolt Rifles, take the Frag grenade.

Against heavy(ish) infantry:
Both, Stalker Bolt Rifles and Krak grenades, are pretty close. However the Krak grenade has the edge against everything above T4. It's that simple. Interestingly the Auto Bolt Rifles when the Tactical Doctrine is active (so probably the largest portion of a game) is about as good at dealing with those as the Stalker Bolt Rifle outside of the Devastator Doctrine.
-> If you are in the list building stage and want a unit to deal with heavy(ish) infantry AND plan to stick with the Devastator Doctrine for most of the game, take the Stalker Bolt Rifle. If you plan to switch to the Tactical Doctrine and stick with that for most of the time, take Auto Bolt Rifles. If you are mid-game and didn't take Stalker Bolt Rifles, take the Krak grenade.

tl;dr just take Auto Bolt Rifles in general with shooting the occasional Krak grenade at tougher infantry.

[MajorNese]

tl;dr just take Auto Bolt Rifles in general with shooting the occasional Krak grenade at tougher infantry.

Well...right now I'm glad I built some autobolt intercessors well before the codex, just for style reasons even if they were not worth it.

[PiñaColada]

-SNIP-

That's a really good write-up! ABRs still cost a point though (much like the grenade launcher), correct? I'm guessing this is just damage per weapon and not weighted for the points, even though the difference would be quite miniscule?

 

Either way, it's a good buff to the ABR by GW. That weapon was nowhere to be seen before this in my experience.