I'm torn

[SyNidus]

So i'm planning out my purchases, and while somethings are easy (3 Invictors? Yes please). Others aren't.

I'm rebuilding my Ravens with a Vanguard Primaris lean. That's not to say i'm not using anything not Primaris Vanguard. I intend to have a Jump pack Captain (still OG Raven Guard). 

The choice which has me torn is whether I should put in Repulsor Executioners or not. I think 2 would complement my army in terms of gameplay by giving me very strong Anti-Knight solutions. On the other hand, I do like the idea of a Stormraven & Stormhawks supporting the vanguard assault. 

Also, what do you guys think of Inceptors and Suppressors? Are they any good?

[Nusquam]

I just had my first game with Suppressors, and the new codex, and they did well. Mind you I was Raptors so I chose Artisans and Fusillade for the art of the long range kill. I imagine a character dropping down for a reroll of sorts, like Phobos LT, would have had the same effect. With dev doctrine putting them to AP-3 makes them much scarier. You suffer the heavy for a turn but posting them up after in nice.

 

Inceptors I love, been using them since 8e dropped. Also I was using Lias and Storm of Fire with them, but the tac doctrine will net you better results these days. They really do scythe down light infantry and are tough enough that with proper placement they don't get much return fire S5 or higher.

[MegaVolt87]

Primaris noob here, but I am going to take 8 plasma inceptors and 2 Executioner repulsors in my list. While spendy, I think they look good on paper with the right buffs and the new doctrines. Plus I don't mind the models and have ideas for converting them. 

[Dracos]

I building 5 Plas-ceptors to run with a squad of 10 Grav-Reivers. The Inceptors are really point heavy but the improvments in Gravis armor should help. His is my backfield disruption unit. I just need to choose a HQ unit to run with them. They can take out armor, but I'm not counting on it.

 

I think the Eliminators are actually a better anti-tank choice than my Xiphons in that I love infantry and not so much tanks (with Raven Guard specifically) but I already own the Xiphons. I do believe Exterminators are a valid albeit point expensive alternative. The things are beastly and if you truly are planning on using Invictors then I think you might have some good synergy going there.

 

Your opponent cannot ignore the Invictors that are going to be in their face T1. That should give your Eliminator time to do some serious damage. I'd find a suitable infantry unit to screen it with also but that's deeper list building.

[Galron]

I run two squads of 3 plasma inceptors. They perform well. I drop mine with a jumppack captain for the manditory rerolls, then they go off on their own.

 

I do not run pure primaris in this list, I save that for my Star Phantoms. Note a lot of units dropped in points. On a lark I tried fitting in a 5 man scout squad with a land speeder storm. Scouts haven't changed but the Storm with an assault cannon is now 15 points cheaper I think. Makes for a quick relatively cheap throwaway objective grabber with the added bonus of not being very big and the new armor bonus if someone does pay attention to it.

[ShinyRhino]

I'm going the Phobos infantry route. Eliminators with las fusils and a Phobos Librarian won't do nearly the damage of an Executioner, but they can be immune to being shot at.

[SyNidus]

I think this might be easier to discuss if we look at a list:

 

Here’s what i’m thinking:

 

2000 List

Battalion:

Captain - JP, ToT, SS - Warlord: Silent stalker - 103

Phobos Librarian - 101

Incursors - 5 man - haywire - 105

Incursors - 5 man - haywire - 105

Infiltrators - 5 man - 110

- 524

 

Vanguard:

Phobos Capt - Lord of Deceit - 99

Invictor - Incendium - 131

Invictor - Incendium - 131

Invictor - Incendium - 131

- 492

 

Spearhead:

Chaplain - JP, Focus - 90

Eliminators - 2 Snipers, Instigator - 74

Eliminators - 2 Snipers, Instigator - 74

Eliminators - 2 Las-Fusils, Instigator - 98

Executioner - 324

Executioner - 324

- 984

 

Total: 2000

CPs: 3+7 -1

 

So the plan is to have the invictors up front (distraction carnifex!) and the Phobos units providing screens for the executioners. There’s also a stratagem which allows me to take a 2nd warlord trait, which gives me the lord of deceit.

 

What do you guys think?

[MegaVolt87]

I like the auto cannon spec, with the RG you would be harder to hit with the invoctors. Then again I have an autocannon bias playing IW's.

[Dracos]

It's a shooty list but I think it would have issues with more than a couple primary Mission Objectives and looks very thin on bodies and mobility. So yeah Ptimaris ;)

[SyNidus]

Lol, I know what you mean about mobility. That's why I was thinking of possibly swapping one of the repulsors with a couple of impulsors. I'm just worried it would then paint a huge target on the remaining repulsor.

Then again...Do i really need repulsors?! What other Anti-Knight weapons do we have?

 

[Nusquam]

My solo repulsor always gets shot up or destroyed first. That's the issue with that platform; its huge, full of points, and your opponent will not struggle to get their points back shooting it.i fear the same from the Executioner. It's just so bloated eith guns and therefore points, you need to get close to use all its points worth and by extension risk it more. If most of its guns were optional to decrease cost I'd be all over it.

 

The Impulsor I love, sub 100 points with a 4++ and can throw infantry across the board. I want three of them. They spread the point around and are rough enough that you have to invest more in destroying them. Unlike the Executioner where a lascannon doing one damage will earn 20.25 of its points back instantly.

 

For anti knight I'm stocked up on lascannon devs and lascannon Mortis contemptors. Though I want to try 3x5 hellblasters, nullzone libby, captain, and 3 impulsors to fly up and double tap a knight.

[MajorNese]

My solo repulsor always gets shot up or destroyed first. That's the issue with that platform; its huge, full of points, and your opponent will not struggle to get their points back shooting it.i fear the same from the Executioner.

One is a target, two are an approach, three are a strategy.

Repulsors are struggling with just a 3+ armour and no invul in a time where everyone at the top of their game is prepared to take down a knight in a turn or two. This will get a bit better when our Repulsors are improved to 2+ armour with Stealth CT, but doesn't solve the underlying problem.

 

The approach to get the most out of it is threat management and target saturation. As long as there is only one target for all the big AT weaponry, it's going to get shot up from the first turn until it's dead. If a similar profile (T7-8, 3+) were to be present, and present a more urgent threat (like dreadnoughts going for CC), the Repulsor would not be targeted until the more pressing matter is dealt with.

 

To give an example from AdMech:

The onagers are arguably one of the best medium tanks of the game. But not the most resilient, so they get targeted right from the beginning, and usually taken down in a few rounds.

But once the same army includes a pair of CC armigers (which have near identical profile), those get targeted exclusively until dead, as no one wants them to rampage through their lines. Which in turn spares the onagers from an untimely and fiery death unscheduled rapid deconstruction.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Executioner is a great unit, but this is honestly still the issue with the Primaris range (and why I think we need the Gravis/Omnis "chamber" to open) before we can play full primaris and expect to be a contender.

 

It's really our only good unit against T8 targets, and its prohibitively expensive in a competitive setting.

 

With that being said, I do think running the Warsuits as distraction carnifexes for the Executioners is a neat idea and could prove fruitful

 

You could actually get really wild and build a 3 Repulsor Executioner list with 2 Invictors in a Brigade - that could be kinda wild :P

[Nusquam]

I remembered the skyshield landing pad exists. A few executioners on top for a 5++ would be good. I use 1-3 twin LC Contemptor Mortis' for my AT generally so they have a build in 5++ already.

[MajorNese]

I remembered the skyshield landing pad exists. A few executioners on top for a 5++ would be good. I use 1-3 twin LC Contemptor Mortis' for my AT generally so they have a build in 5++ already.

With RG handing out cover, the executioner has 2+ armour. If there's no higher AP than AP-3, it comes down to a free 5++.

[Nusquam]

Turn one lascannon from a marine army are AP-4. And you could be unlucky like me and face IF/IW/Tau all the time. My first game was vs IF and my Repulsor didnt get a save.

 

If we're fighting knights the Castellan lance is AP-5, shield breaker is -4, errant thermal cannon and warglaive spears are -4. The difference between 6+ or no save and a 5++ can be make or break.

[Race Bannon]

What other Anti-Knight weapons do we have?

 

 

Now THIS caught my eye.

[jpwyrm]

How about dropping one Invictor and one Eliminator unit and then distribute the units into 2 battalions? You'll get more CPs to spend on the new stratagems and more boots on the ground for the 3 extra troops needed for another battalion. Those could be Intercessors for strong midfield presence or tactical squads with heavy weapons for a more backfield role. Intercessors can ride in the Executioners and wait for their time to shine when screening/caping objectives isn't an issue.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

What other Anti-Knight weapons do we have?

 

Now THIS caught my eye.

 

 

Honestly? I think it comes back to slam-captains. I keep seeing posts/conversations cropping up about "how to replace the Slam Captain" since the Thunder Hammer cost (and JP captain was increased as well). The answer isn't The Burning Blade, or more Executioners. It's still Slam Captains, and here is why:

 

1. Better warlord traits with the ability to double up (presumably for each codex)
2. Master Crafted is back in a big way
3. Shock Assault - need I say more?

It's honestly still our most cost effective unit for dealing with Knights. At the end of the day, yea it got 21 points more expensive, but its increase in cost (of 17%) is offset by its increase in efficacy by at least 20%.

 

 

How about dropping one Invictor and one Eliminator unit and then distribute the units into 2 battalions? You'll get more CPs to spend on the new stratagems and more boots on the ground for the 3 extra troops needed for another battalion. Those could be Intercessors for strong midfield presence or tactical squads with heavy weapons for a more backfield role. Intercessors can ride in the Executioners and wait for their time to shine when screening/caping objectives isn't an issue.

 

I keep trying to build a RG brigade, and I keep coming back to this as being the possible solution (The other being one Batt along with a Vanguard/etc). At the end of the day, we are just as lacking in defensive staying power as we were before the Codex, and we are even more CP hungry. It really makes me feel like the only viable troop choice is MSU bolter scouts, hidden out of LOS.

[SyNidus]

Hmm, those actually give me some ideas.

I think there's a possibility of using Eliminators with Las-Fusils, combined with Invictors & Smash Captains pushing against the Knights.

 

2 squads of them, could be shooting and wounding knights on 2+/3+, dealing 3 damage each, with the invictors and smash captains charging in to finish them off.

What do you guys think?

[Dracos]

I think sometimes I miss the days I could carry 6 lascannons inside my tactical squads, 2 Annihilator Predators and a Devestator squad of missile launchers .... alas Primaris ;)

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Hmm, those actually give me some ideas.

 

I think there's a possibility of using Eliminators with Las-Fusils, combined with Invictors & Smash Captains pushing against the Knights.

 

2 squads of them, could be shooting and wounding knights on 2+/3+, dealing 3 damage each, with the invictors and smash captains charging in to finish them off.

 

What do you guys think?

 

I like the core concept, as the Invictors are a great screen for the Smash Captains (Lets play some Herohammer!)

 

I think Las Fusil eliminators used for AT are a trap, honestly. I think Eliminators are amazing honestly, just in units of 3 Bolt Rifles on far flung objectives. Against knights they are hitting on twos, wounding on 3s, doing 3 damage each. Best case scenario they do 6 dmg a unit, more likely they do 3 dmg. Feels similar to the trap of running sniper scouts and trying to kill any character with 4+ wounds. They just don't have enough volume of fire to put a target down.

 

Id still take the eliminators, just with Bolt Rifles. Id look to other slots for AT (if you feel you need ranged AT).

 

I'm toying with a double battalion list with 3 Smash Captains, 1 Relic Chaplain, and maybe 1 Librarian - all with Jump packs of course.

[jpwyrm]

I'll try a similar list tomorrow against the hated Tau. I'm not yet sure if I should give the Chaplain Hero of the Chapter and the relic crozius to buff him as much as I can to tackle te big suits alongside the captain or if I should buff my shooting as much as I can. Past experiences suggest I would loose the shooting contest but I have not yet played Tau in 8th and it will be my first game with the new dex too. I'll come back and post results afer the game.

[Bluflash]

A note on eliminators:

 

If you can place them in a good spot, thanks to guided Aim and mortal wounds they can punch up pretty well.

 

I had three units shoot at a GK Dreadknight (it was him or a land raider, no better options) and they surprised me by putting out 3 mortals and 2 normal damage. They did have Capt and Lt support, and I'm running master artisans, but that result makes me think the fusils are just a points trap.

 

Take the bolt rifles for targeted at infantry killing, and if you need wounds on a big target, go for those mortals on a 5+.

[Dracos]

I have a query as I think it would make a good Raptor CT. Does Master Artisan activate if you've used a Captain and Lt. for rerolls?