What do you think of the current state of Dark Angels fluff?

[jaxom]

I'm curious what others think about where the Dark Angels are right now in terms of background in 40k.

[JJD]

The whole primaris thing is making a bit off a mess of the background. The models look great though and are finally space marine sized in comparison to regular humans so there is that.

[Bryan Blaire]

Has there been any new DA fluff beyond the stuff in Vigilus with the Ravenwing?

 

As far as overall fluff, there seems to be a lot of Primaris stuff that is missing and needs to be fleshed out before we truly understand what all is going on there and what the structure of those Chapters really look like, as well as how the internal structure of Chapters that have incorporated Primaris look now.

 

Hopefully next month’s White Dwarf that says it’s supposed to have “Primaris Dark Angels” gives us some additional insight as to how the Unforgiven may have worked to incorporate/use the Primaris.

 

I’m interested, because even though my Stoneburners’ story effectively ends with the Fall of Cadia, I still have interest in possibly pursuing a new Primaris set up, but only if I actually know what’s going on - otherwise I’ll just keep all my Primaris going into my Wolves.

[Berzul]

That is actually a good point.

 

How DO the Primaris Marines form up a Company, or a Chapter, right now?

 

Anyone have a graphic of the chapter and company structure, with Primaris in them?

[Bryan Blaire]

We don’t really know a Primaris only Chapter (and it may roughly be the same as any other Chapter, but it would be nice for GW to say that), but with the change from Tactical, Assault, and Heavy Support to Battleline, Close Support, and Fire Support, presumably in existing Chapters, squads simply slot into whatever role they are assigned.

 

So a Battle Company that previously had 6 Tactical Squads, 2 Assault Squads, and 2 Devastator Squads, now they may have 3 Tacticals, 2 Intercessors, and 1 Infiltrator Squad, with 1 Reiver and 1 Assault Squad, and 1 Hellblaster and 1 Devastator squad - or a different mix, and still be in Codex compliance.

[JJD]

The codex Astartes was quite ridged for ten thousand years but now Bobby G is back its all a bit loosely goosey.

 

At least until GW real ease all the planned primaris units.

[Galloway]

I think there's a lot of potential for some interesting directions now  with Luther escaped and apparently reforming/rebuilding an entire fallen legion- how will the DA respond? What role will the primaris play- will they be allowed into the Ravenwing and Deathwing? Do the DA consider a primaris-only chapter like the Blades of Vengeance members of the Unforgiven, especially if they don't have Ravenwing and Deathwing companies, or an inner circle? A bit further back, do the DA know that Cypher helped Guilliman reach Terra, and how does that influence everything? Is Marbas anyone of note from 30k/HH era- probably not, but a nice hook for the future. And of course, is the Lion going to wake up, and if so, what happens then with him and Luther? I personally hope he doesn't come back, but I wouldn't have brought back any of the primarchs in 40k, or had Luther escape to begin with.

 

There's some interesting stuff (at least to me) in the just-released codex of the process regarding scouts and 10th company. Basically it seems like you can think of the old scout models as representing both "firstborn" (using language from recent Spears of the Emperor book) and primaris initiates, especially primaris initiates before full integration of geneseed and implants. But then the more mature/experienced primaris of the 10th company start out serving in different vanguard roles, and there's now also supposed 10 standing vanguard squads in 10th company in addition to the scouts of various size. So you can draw a pretty clear parallel between e.g. scout snipers and eliminators. The other wrinkle is that while all the 10th company primaris would serve as vanguards, primaris of other companies can also do so. The example they give is you have a squad of 10 primaris in one of the main battle-line companies; on any given mission, 5 might serve as intercessors and 5 as infiltrators, or 3 inceptors or aggressors or whatever and the other 2 man vehicles. It also explicitly make a note of the initial wave of primaris Cawl had on stasis were somewhat limited because they were only "indoctrinated" to serve in a single role (like hellblaster), and didn't have the flexibility and experience of coming up through companies, whereas primaris created since then have much broader experience. Definitely helped me envision better how primaris would integrate into a codex-compliant chapter or form new chapters. How all that translates to DA remains to be seen. The DA are called out specifically as one of the chapters "notoriously insular of culture" who don't exactly welcome the 1st generation primaris, but can see the advantage of being able to train their own. So if they can control the initial wave and indoctrinate new primaris, does that let them effectively ramp up to battle Luther's legion of fallen?

[G8Keeper]

It's going to be interesting to see how this "Primaris Inner Circle" within Phil Kelly's DA and Tau book pans out,or even if GW adopt it fully. They have an issue with a lack of representative minis for DW and RW Primaris that will have to be addressed alongside, unless they go a different route.

 

Bear with me here.

 

Imagine if they brought back one of the other wings of the Hexagrammaton specifically for Inner Circle Primaris. I'm not sure how they'd fit into the company structure (which is a bit fluid in itself these days) or even the command hierarchy, but they do borrow the whole one type of weapon per squad idea from their 30k brethren, maybe adopting more of the old ways isn't so far fetched?

[Angel of Solitude]

As cool as the Hexagrammaton wings sounds, I think realistically knowledge of them were lost a long, long time ago. You'd need somebody from the Great Crusade / Heresey era to return...like the Lion, perhaps

As for the rest of the fluff, it's clear that there's some future show down ready to take place given Luther's escape and a Daemon Prince rounding up the Fallen into a single force. Previously, with the Fallen being few and far between, it's been easy for the Dark Angels to control knowledge of the Fallen. However, with one single force led by somebody who's supposed to be dead, I'm sure that Bobby G will find out soon enough.

 

When this happens, I can imagine the following taking place:

• Luther's forces muster, supported by a massive Daemon contingent.
• Lion awakes for a final showdown, brings the whole Chapter (and potentially some successors) for a big showdown.
• 1st Legion are victorious, but at great cost. One of Luther / Daemon Prince escapes with some Fallen
• Bobby G finds out, chastises the 1st Legion but agrees to (a) keep the secret and (b) allow the Dark Angels to continue to hunt the fallen - thus preserving the character of the legion
• Losses in the big showdown are replenished by Primaris. They know of the secret due to knowing why they were fighting, and thus become Inner Circle.
• Some big characters also die, paving the way for named Primaris characters and potential restructure of Death/Ravenwing.
• Life carries on. Bobby G appoints the Lion as some sort of Lord Militant responsible for the non-Terra part of the galaxy.

I can dream!

[Deadman Wade]

Primaris fluff makes no sense at all. Even from practical point of view. Logistical difficulties alone would make whole primaris thing impossible.

Anyone with even the slightest military experience knows what it takes to fully arm a simple battle tank with one main cannon and two machine guns, and repulsors have SEVEN guns in their default loadout.

Maintaining five more different armor types without capabilities to interchange parts with older marks, and, of course, at least FIVE new boltgun types and tons of special equipment would require constant supply from very large production facilities. Armor suits, weapons, vehicles, ammunition, grenades - the amount of nomenclature is basically doubled.

All of that is impossible for a chapter, whose main base is a floating asteroid.

[Berzul]

I am REALLY bad at lore, specially when compares to some others here. But, could it happen, for the secret of the chapter to just be out?

 

So far the DAs have kept their shameful past a secret for 10.000+ years. But that was in a Galaxy that allowed insulation for the chapter.

 

With Guilliman back, having been aided by Cypher, with the Lion possibly waking up, with Luther amassing the Fallen, and with the Primaris pretty much changing the chapter beyond it's traditional Deathwing-Ravenwing-Greenwing structure...

 

How would it be if the lore simply moved up, and the secret of the DAs got out? Like, entirely. With Guilliman forgiving the past of the First Legion, the Fallen becoming publicly known as enemies of the Imperium, and the DW and RW disbanded, as the Hunt became an Imperium-wide concern?

 

Could that happen?

Would that solve the while Primaris issue?

How would that change the look and feel, and the soul of the Chapter?

If we are not the secretive, insular, non trusting Chapter, what are we then?

Can we be something else?

[G8Keeper]

I think that would change how the chapter/legion are perceived too much.  The whole point is that it's a secret and they do all they can to stop it getting out/capture the fallen without outside help or interference.  I think it's more likely as noted by Angel of Solitude above that Bobby G finds out and keep the secret in fact, Angel's whole post just seems the right way to go for me, it covers so many issues nice and neatly.

[zacret]

I love the primaris fluff regarding how the Legion acts in relations to the new Primaris. The sceptisism and distrust they have towards them fit the unforgiven perfectly. The vigileus campagn is a perfect example here. They send a primaris leutenant in charge of Primaris forces while they themselves busy themselves with hunting fallen behind the scenes. The scene where Kodden meets up with Marneus are gold. Also  the War of secrets have alot of cool scenes that really shows how "dark" the Dark angels actually are when hunting the fallen. Love it. Im very exited about the future fluff, not so much about the state our codex are in :(

[jbaeza94]

I think the trust issue with primaris should be relegated only to cawl primaris, not home grown primaris.

[Guest MistaGav]

I am REALLY bad at lore, specially when compares to some others here. But, could it happen, for the secret of the chapter to just be out?

 

 

Tbh I think that's how the direction will go. It seems like the Fallen are becoming too big a threat for the DA to hide and with Guilliman, the Custodes and possibly the grey knights aware of them it's something you just cant hide anymore and have to face. The implication of that fallout will be interesting to see though. I also want to see how the successor chapter Angels of Absolution fare after the Fallen Secrets book too.

 

It also seems like the Fallen are goading and toying the DA into revealing the secret as well going by the Vigilus campaign and the comic book series.

[shabbadoo]

The fluff is doing well enough, but they need to unleash The Lion and Luther.  It's time.

[bevulf]

The fluff is doing well enough, but they need to unleash The Lion and Luther.  It's time.

I agree. I suppose Luther may attack the Rock with the Fallen. Dark Angels might take heavy looses due to the attack and Azrael might decide to cross the rubicon (followed by others) to strenghten the remaining marines.

 

On the other hand I dont know if gw wants to awaken lion now. I generally think that the possible return of any primarch being chaosy or loyal is reserved for a BIG event. New edition maybe. I would love Lion to be next but i strongly doubt that

 

He might be one of the last loyalist primarch to return if you consider his importance to the imperium and his achievements from the preheresy era when he was second to horus. even his brothers believed him to be appointed as a Warmaster. Thus i believe he might be the very last hope to the imperium and thats why he might be kept to the very last ending. It is even written in our dex....he awaits the time when he is most needed...

[Gederas]

The fluff is doing well enough, but they need to unleash The Lion and Luther.  It's time.

I agree. I suppose Luther may attack the Rock with the Fallen. Dark Angels might take heavy looses due to the attack and Azrael might decide to cross the rubicon (followed by others) to strenghten the remaining marines.

 

On the other hand I dont know if gw wants to awaken lion now. I generally think that the possible return of any primarch being chaosy or loyal is reserved for a BIG event. New edition maybe. I would love Lion to be next but i strongly doubt that

 

He might be one of the last loyalist primarch to return if you consider his importance to the imperium and his achievements from the preheresy era when he was second to horus. even his brothers believed him to be appointed as a Warmaster. Thus i believe he might be the very last hope to the imperium and thats why he might be kept to the very last ending. It is even written in our dex....he awaits the time when he is most needed...

Honestly, they released Mortarion several months after the beginning of 8th. So it doesn't need to be an edition change. A Primarch's return SHOULD be a big event though.

 

However: It's stated in the Chaos Marines codex that AT THE VERY LEAST, Angron, Perturabo, Fulgrim and Lorgar are out and about now. So with how GW likes making it seem like the 'good guys' are on the major back foot before they get a second wind/assistance, I don't expect any loyalist Primarchs to return until AFTER Fulgrim and Angron (who are the most likely to get models as their Legions need the update and unique codex) at the earliest.

 

I am in agreement that I feel the Lion will be one of the later Loyalist Primarchs to return, yes.

[Knight of the Raven]

(Note that this post comes from an outsider, whose knowledge of Dark Angels lore amounts to second-hand information gleaned from other posts on this forum.)
 

I am REALLY bad at lore, specially when compares to some others here. But, could it happen, for the secret of the chapter to just be out?

It could, and I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

The Dark Angels are entirely defined by the Hunt, however, from my understanding. To the point where they simply do not exist in official literature unless the Fallen are involved, I believe. And the Hunt isn't only hunting the Fallen, but also about keeping it secret. It feeds into the whole circles within circles of trust and secrets theme of the Dark Angels.

This isn't quite 'what happens to those who pursue The Quest when The Quest is over?' but I feel it'd still be removing, or at least changing, half of it from the chapter's character. So it is a matter which I consider should be treated with the utmost care by the Design Studio.

Your "what are we then?" question is very appropriate, indeed.

[jaxom]

 

Your "what are we then?" question is very appropriate, indeed.

 

I think this was the best part to come out of Angels of Darkness and really hasn't been addressed well since. Of the top of my head, the only non-short story of Dark Angels without the Fallen (other than large chunks of War of Secrets) is Purging of Kadillus.

 

War of Secrets:

I hated much of War of Secrets. However, but I am interested to see what's going to happen, if anything to the Angels of Absolution.