Time for 2 wounds and attacks?

[TorvaldTheMild]

I think CSM's need to be 2 wounds and 2 attacks as all marines should have been that.  It would be good if GW just closed the gap with Primaris and state that they are stronger and tougher in the lore but it can't be reflected well on the stats.  It sucks that we have become the :cussty midget nemesis.  GW, just did that so that if people were thinking of going to chaos because they don't like the Primaris range, then they made them better rules wise to combat possible turning traitor.  The range is now popular so I wish they'd do away with this, because it also gives a reason not to give us 2 wounds and attacks (which again SM and CSM should have always been) because that is Primaris territory.  As for elites like berzerkers, they can either make them more expensive or tone done their killyness, though I would hope it was the and uptake in points, as killy is as killy does.  Not that I think any of this will happen, it just makes me salty.  

[jgascoine011]

I think that regular CSM will stay at 1 wound but bezerkers, noise marines, plague marines, rubic marines and possibly chosen will go up to 2 wounds.

 

Terminators might stay at 2 wounds but  the special terminators (scarb occult, deathshroud etc) may go up to 3 wounds.

 

Basically the legion specific space marines will be equivalent to primaris with the extra wound being reflected in the fluff as due to being in the warp so long

 

I am not fussed if points stay the same as for example khorne bezerkers will still die to shooting and plague marines will still not kill very much. There is also the fact that there is so much D2/D3 weapons in the game right now

[Vykes]

As much as I'd like the 2 wound territory, it's still stepping on tall-boy toes and probably might represent a creep that could be problematic (though I'll admit the jump from 1 wound to 2, and from 2 to 3 for some of those gravis boys represent the same issue: the need for new weapons to deal with old problems).  So as much as I'd like it for astartes to actually feel like astartes, I'd doubt it would be done soon. Like jgascoine says, the D2 or 1d3 damage weapons right now are pretty prevalent, though flat 3 feels pretty rare*. 

 

That said, the time for 2 attacks was the beginning of the edition and it's only exacerbated now.  Shock Assault helps but only just, 2 attacks or, bare minimum, the chance to at least purchase chainswords to gain access to an additional attack for standard troopers feels necessary to chew through some of this chaff and actually get our abilities working for us.  

 

I can see the problem being berserkers and plague marines getting more wounds and attacks: my regular Space Wolf opponent prioritizes my chianaxe berserkers like crazy, though I'll admit it's a little depressing seeing them go down like guardsmen while they just lock in a few storm shields and I can't hack through them regardless of what I try to do.  

 

Again, it's the old issue that we've had for a while.  

 

*Still think autocannons and certainly las cannons should have a flat 3 minimum, my las cannons have consistently been absolutely appalling due to RNG issues, and autocannons barely make a scratch compared to plasma. They need something to really let them stand out.  The predatory autocannons are terrific. 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I don't think CSM should be getting 2W either. It infringes too much on what Primaris are supposed to be. I wouldn't have minded if they just gave ALL marines in the game the Primaris statline, but it's clear after the new SM codex that they aren't doing that.

 

That said, it IS time for Chaos to get mechanical bonuses on marine infantry again, probably from Marks. And i wouldn't mind if, say, a Mark of Nurgle gave +1W.

[Kythnos]

Well, I do think all Marines should have gotten 2 wounds and attacks at the beginning of 8th edition. However, GW painted themselves into a corner when they made Primaris the superior Marines. At some point this might not matter anymore for loyalists as old units will become rare on the battlefield. But what about CSM? At that point our infantry will be the one with inferior stats across all units.

[Prot]

The bottom line is it has to sell models. 

 

If the points are right, 2 wounds/2 attacks is fine for chaos and probably better represents their time in the warp, their time in the long war. However, it would have had to be done when Vigilus Ablaze came out.

 

I bet one of the worst selling boxes upon release from Vigilus Ablaze was the Chaos Space Marine box. Let's say the points end up somewhere between a marine scout and a Reiver (basically we're talking about becoming Primaris Reivers -without the deepstrike option.) Would you be happy with 15-16 points each? No special rules MIGHT get that down to 14 at best. 

 

I bet it would have moved a lot more boxes for GW. 

 

I don't know why they weren't more pre-emptive on some of this. IE: Landraiders are down by 20 points now (not for Chaos?) and marines by 1 point. No FAQ yet though as far as I know. 

[MegaVolt87]

I would rather see 2W on chosen, cult marines than the regular guys. I would drop the regular CSM to 12pts, add a chainsword so they have the same base load out as chosen. Salamanders trait ignores AP-1 weapons, would like that on our termi's with option for tartaros and cataphractii armour for chosen terminators, who would be 3W, pointed accordingly. Would be fair as we do not have storm shields, loyalists can keep those coward blankets lol.  

[Julius Firefocht]

Actually I am okay with keeping our normal Chaos Space Marines at 1W1A, as long as the point cost per model is lowered to 12 like the loyalist Tactical Marines. 

 

2 wounds is a very dubious "advantage" now with the amount of multi-damage weapons running around. Intercessors are paying additional points for their second wound while dying as easily as Tactical Marines to the most commonly used weapon options in the game (overcharged plasma, Disintegrator Cannons, Avenger Gatling Cannons, just to name a few).

 

An additional attack per model is equally dubious when the game is currently won and lost in the shooting phase.

 

So nope, I rather they just drop the points per model or keep the current point cost and buff the shooting on the basic CSM unit if possible. Drop us to 12 points per model or keep us at 13 points but give us something that gives AP-1 to our basic bolter shots, and I think we are good. 

[Ishagu]

I think Plague Marines and Thousand Sons with two wounds and attacks would be too powerful without substantial point increases.

 

I am completely behind the "New Men" idea for Emperor's Children - their own version of a Primaris style improvement that Fabius was supposed to have worked on.

 

 

As for CSM dropping to 12, I could see it but a few things need to be considered. Red Corsairs have access to a very powerful CP generating detachment, Chaos still have much better psychic powers than loyalists and they also have access to cheaper "horde" troops in-codex (this might become a lot more important if a future codex encourages a mono-book army). Not to mention VOTLW which makes them very effective in CC against many armies, especially as they all gain the extra attack on the charge now too.

Yes, Chaos Marines are very similar to Tactical Marines, but everything around them is becoming more and more distinctive and units should never be compared in a vacuum.

[Special Officer Doofy]

@Ishagu: True but how many psychic spells are you using on basic CSM's? None. And chaos has access to less auras, no chapter masters. Even their primarchs only give reroll hits of 1's... Their legion traits are much worse and don't apply to all of their units (fingers crossed this is a temporary problem). The basic CSM needs a points drop, hands down (or cultist and tactical marines and the like need a price hike). You say units should never be compared in a vacuum, I say you should never use one Legions ability to get command points and act like it applies to the other 10+ legion players. SM's have just about as much synergy as CSM's when it comes to normal marines.

 

I'm fine with the basic chaos space marines staying at 1W and 1A but the points need to reflect it.

[Marshal Loss]

I would like to see this purely to put the focus back on vanilla CSM. There really isn't a good argument against this buff beyond "there should be differentiation between normal marines and Primaris", and it is one of GW's greatest mistakes to link their new line of models with a buff sorely needed by vanilla marines everywhere. I'd be open to other buff ideas though (one above poster mentioned marks giving bonuses again, which I miss sorely).

[Ishagu]

Well the lore is very explicit with the Primaris being superior to regular Marines, and to be a more perfected design. Chaos boons manifest in perks for CSM, like extra toughness, better save, more attacks, etc in the cult troops but they shouldn't be on a par with the Primaris.

 

Maybe Chaos Marines do need to drop to 12. I want to see more of them on the tabletop and the new models are amazing. One thing that perhaps affects how much use they see is the fact that CSM can bring various Daemon allies that mesh better in a multi faction list. I'd be happy to see a re-work of bonuses that encourage a mono faction in the same way as the loyalists.

If you look at the Ultras their rules and Doctine bonuses look great but they do give up any and all allies which is massive. No more Guard, no more Knights, no more Assassins, no more Custodes helping out. These are big losses in terms of power gaming and it remains to be seen if the bonuses are truly worth it. There's currently no incentive for CSM to even stick to any sub-optimal units in the codex.

 

How many of you guys would be happpy to give up any and all allies for some bonuses to the unit rules in the CSM codex?

[BolterZorro]

Well the lore is very explicit with the Primaris being superior to regular Marines, and to be a more perfected design. Chaos boons manifest in perks for CSM, like extra toughness, better save, more attacks, etc in the cult troops but they shouldn't be on a par with the Primaris.

 

Maybe Chaos Marines do need to drop to 12. I want to see more of them on the tabletop and the new models are amazing. One thing that perhaps affects how much use they see is the fact that CSM can bring various Daemon allies that mesh better in a multi faction list. I'd be happy to see a re-work of bonuses that encourage a mono faction in the same way as the loyalists.

If you look at the Ultras their rules and Doctine bonuses look great but they do give up any and all allies which is massive. No more Guard, no more Knights, no more Assassins, no more Custodes helping out. These are big losses in terms of power gaming and it remains to be seen if the bonuses are truly worth it. There's currently no incentive for CSM to even stick to any sub-optimal units in the codex.

That's indeed, and sadly, so true.

I'm on the same boat as you: I'd rather see some adjustment on CSM like point drops, and few rules, that make them primaris with spike.

In the current rules (with the recent addition of bolter discipline & assault ) we don't need that much buffs. But need a bit.

Some units like the raptors just need a little boost.

The daemon engine rules was a superb idea to make big chaos guys a chaos signature on the battlefield: too bad it felt short and gave the impression off unachieved work.

I hope that GW will manage this in the upcoming CA.

[Marshal Loss]

I don't want 12pt CSM because at the end of the day, Primaris or not, these are still transhuman super soldiers. And the reality is that while Primaris are marines +1 in the lore their actual bonuses are somewhat nebulous and disconnected from the game world (e.g. every major source says they are stronger, and yet their actual strength is the same);  there are other ways to express these differences. Perhaps a situation where all CSM get +1 base attack and then a second bonus from a mark would help to show that their bonuses come from their time in the warp as opposed to Cawl's ludicrous Martian biology. Either way they badly need help because I feel penalized just because I take lots of CSM in my lists.

 

And I'm sure I speak on behalf of many CSM players that actually do play a mono-CSM army the overwhelming majority of the time. I would be very happy to give up allies for sizeable bonuses, because a situation where one can take CSM with excellent solo bonuses or a Chaos Horde that sacrifices depth for breadth is far more preferable to what we have now.

[Ishagu]

What I think could be very cool is to leave them at 13 points or boost them to 14 but allow them to take a bonus rule on top, to apply to all the Standard Chaos Marines army wide. EG: +1 attack or 1+ leadership, etc

 

Even better, make them 14 points but give them a weapon buff:

 

Warp Tainted Ammo: Bolters are now Rapid Fire 1 Str4 Ap-1 1Damage. Hit rolls of an un-modified 6 automatically wound the target and ignore cover modifiers.

[Kraken]

What I think could be very cool is to leave them at 13 points or boost them to 14 but allow them to take a bonus rule on top, to apply to all the Standard Chaos Marines army wide. EG: +1 attack or 1+ leadership, etc

 

Even better, make them 14 points but give them a weapon buff:

 

Warp Tainted Ammo: Bolters are now Rapid Fire 1 Str4 Ap-1 1Damage. Hit rolls of an un-modified 6 automatically wound the target and ignore cover modifiers.

 

I'd like a bonus depending on the mark taken.

I'm not sure what could be good for unmarked unit. A different bonus or making them cheaper maybe?

[Prot]

How many of you guys would be happpy to give up any and all allies for some bonuses to the unit rules in the CSM codex?

 

That's a bit of a different topic really. In order to give up allies (as with Space marines) there has to be a real significant give and take there. Right now there is no benefit to even playing most Legions. Just some renegade detachments. Competitively (most commonly) you see some Purge, some Flawless Host, and a pile of Plague Bearers, Ahriman, Pink Horrors, Chaos Knights, etc. 

 

There's another thread though full of wishlisting on that topic if you're interested.

 

Since the release of 'nu-marines' it's a whole different universe. Marines are on the next level compared to CSM, but it's the totality of rules... not any one thing. My Ultramarines are a million miles ahead of my Black Legion and I alternate them every few days. Last night was another exceptionally strong reminder of the class divide that now exists.

[Kythnos]

Well the lore is very explicit with the Primaris being superior to regular Marines, and to be a more perfected design. Chaos boons manifest in perks for CSM, like extra toughness, better save, more attacks, etc in the cult troops but they shouldn't be on a par with the Primaris.

I hear you there, but who says that this superiority needs to be +1 wound and attacks over other SM? Can we not conceive the idea that millenia in the warp have had a similar effect on Chaos Marines? I hope for a standard marine profile as baseline for all stripes of SM, loyalists or traitors. Because at some point Primaris will be the standard marine profile for loyalists and at that point our CSM will feel like those mooks from that horrible Space Marines animation movie some years back, no matter how many special rules you tack on. I dread that point in time.

[MegaVolt87]

Forget about extra +2 attacks guys when we just got Hateful Assault for an extra +1 attack. Changes I posted earlier would be better than copying another factions mechanics via the doctrine that SM got. 

[Void Knight]

Throwing out another idea, giving the CSM unit a buff if the unit size is greater than 10 models. Maybe increase their movement by 2". I think it fits the lore, a rampaging horde of bloodthirsty chaos space marines, charging through enemy fire as an unstoppable monster, not worrying about his brothers dying around him as he runs into a squad of guardsmen.