Codex 2.0: The Old Breed Strikes Back

[sultansean]

I really appreciate that the new codex seems to have breathed new life into our original marine Veteran units. Specifically Terminators, Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans. 

 

Terminators got their own stratagem which is nice for massed storm bolter shots as well as powerfists or hammers in melee. Coupled with a few different ways to make deep strike charges more likely I could see taking my terminators either regular or assault onto the competitive field again. 

 

Sternguard with bolter discipline, particularly as Ultramarines, and the stratagem are looking very mean. 2 30" S4 -3AP with +1 to wound shots on a 14 point model? That seems pretty good. Might even be worth bringing them in a rhino so that they survive the first turn.

 

Vanguard Veterans, with an extra attack from shock assault and greater ways to reliably deep strike are looking like a nice way to add some thunder hammers and storm shields into a list. Or go dual chainswords for 5 attacks each with -1AP in Turn 3.

 

What are you thinking? Are you planning to return your veteran old breed marines to the competitive table top or are the new hotness just too hot?   

[Lemondish]

I personally do not have any old marines to return to.

 

But as a massive Primaris fan I haven't actually wanted to. However, some of my favourite themed units like Sternguard are starting to look really fun. I'm excited to explore the modeling and painting opportunities there!

[Ishagu]

I think lots of the classic units received substantial improvements. I've just finished touching up some of my old Centurions and will be using them in an upcoming game - the first time in two years!

Same with my old Grav Devs and Sternguard Vets.

[No Foes Remain]

Tactical Marines becoming 1 point more than scouts, they are now a much better option to fill out troop slots since compared to scouts they gain better stats and a better save. That along with with the new drop pod rules means I would take tacs as troops almost every time.

[Subtleknife]

I dont have any normal markers left, but I am glad they got a buff. I just wished intercessors could ride in pods.

[Medjugorje]

Saw a game of Imperial fists yesterday just with Firstborn Marines... they are strong.

[Guest MistaGav]

Tactical Marines becoming 1 point more than scouts, they are now a much better option to fill out troop slots since compared to scouts they gain better stats and a better save. That along with with the new drop pod rules means I would take tacs as troops almost every time.

What other better stats do they gain besides the 3+ save?

 

Just when I finished building my scouts they go ahead and do this! I'm gonna have to invest in a few tac squads as well by the looks of things. Just not sure what to give then.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

What other better stats do they gain besides the 3+ save?

That's it, actually. I wanted to add something else to the list, but then I recalled all other stats were brought up to be the same a while ago

[Dracos]

Tactical Marines becoming 1 point more than scouts, they are now a much better option to fill out troop slots since compared to scouts they gain better stats and a better save. That along with with the new drop pod rules means I would take tacs as troops almost every time.

 

Competitively you still want a mix of Troop types. Scouts ability to infiltrate is too important a tool not to be part of your work kit. Camo cloaks are cheap enough that there save makes them equally durable in cover. 

 

I don't play Firstborn anymore but I use to always use a 2-1 ratio to supplement the Tacticals.

[No Foes Remain]

 

Tactical Marines becoming 1 point more than scouts, they are now a much better option to fill out troop slots since compared to scouts they gain better stats and a better save. That along with with the new drop pod rules means I would take tacs as troops almost every time.

What other better stats do they gain besides the 3+ save?

 

Just when I finished building my scouts they go ahead and do this! I'm gonna have to invest in a few tac squads as well by the looks of things. Just not sure what to give then.

 

 

 

 

Tactical Marines becoming 1 point more than scouts, they are now a much better option to fill out troop slots since compared to scouts they gain better stats and a better save. That along with with the new drop pod rules means I would take tacs as troops almost every time.

 

Competitively you still want a mix of Troop types. Scouts ability to infiltrate is too important a tool not to be part of your work kit. Camo cloaks are cheap enough that there save makes them equally durable in cover. 

 

I don't play Firstborn anymore but I use to always use a 2-1 ratio to supplement the Tacticals.

 

 

Ah did they? That serves me right for typing that out early in the morning with bugger all sleep.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

 

What other better stats do they gain besides the 3+ save?

That's it, actually. I wanted to add something else to the list, but then I recalled all other stats were brought up to be the same a while ago

 

 

Tacs still have more weapon options.

[mertbl]

I only own 3 aggressors, so it's all first born for me. The new book really brings some life into them. I have a ton of vanguard with magnetized arms and back packs. I have all of the options. Been having a lot of fun with 2 damage lightning claws and chainswords(white scar successor)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I just can’t bring myself to play any old muhreenz except as charcters.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I just can’t bring myself to play any old muhreenz except as charcters.

Then...why post at all in a thread solely about Old Marines?

 

I'm here because I play only Old Marines. I like the changes that have given them a little oomph, in particular the addition of CTs to vehicles. Iron Hands and Ultramarines in particular benefit heavily from that change.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I love old Marine characters because they have better options to choose from like the Chapter Champion for Ultramarines. I’m really happy for players like you that GW gave some love to old Marine units even though I don’t use them. Win win.

[Medjugorje]

Stand alone Firstborn do their Job better then Primaris alone ( its just what i expect). But its combination ist the most powerful tool.

[Mandragola]

Assault centurions have definitely improved a lot in the new book. That extra attack and wound, plus a huge price cut, makes them look competitive to me. Thunderfire cannons are interesting too, with better BS and a strat to fire twice.

 

I’m not really seeing that kind of improvement elsewhere to be honest. Or at least, while undoubtedly oldmarine units have improved, they haven’t done so more than primaris units. The vehicles have got a bit better, to the point where you could use them, but none seem really fantastic.

 

The drop pod change is quite good. It makes no particular sense for a drop pod to arrive faster than a unit that’s teleporting, it that’s infiltrating and is already there, but let’s not worry about that. Instead, worry about the fact that drop podding has always been a rock/paper/scissors tactic - decent against hard targets if you can get near them, but pretty terrible against hordes or anyone with screens. Grav devastators do look better but even then the cost of dropping them in is very high.

 

Overall things are better now for people running oldmarines and that’s good. I don’t think they’ve suddenly become hyper-competitive though. Personally I’m happy with my primaris guys who, in my opinion, are now kind of what marines are always supposed to have been.

[L30n1d4s]

A pretty specific example here, but Sternguard in Drop Pods with max Template Weapons and the Successor Chapter Trait that adds +3" to the range on all weapons is an "old Marine" unit that I think really got buffed in the new codex.

 

Specifically, 10 Sternguard with 2 Heavy Flamers/8 Combi-Flamers come down turn 1 and shoot your opponent with 2D6 S5 AP-2 (Devastator Doctrine) and 8D6 S4 AP0 auto-hitting shots... I just saw a battle report online the other day where a player did some thing like this and wiped out an entire brood of Venomthropes turn 1 (thus denying his opponent the -1 to Hit for the rest of his army) and I think a lot of players will try this tactic in the future, because it can be so dangerous to all kind of units, particularly screens that they are counting on holding out until at least turn 2-3 to prevent you charging their main lines.

[Mandragola]

That +3 to flamer range thing is fantastic, it’s true. Too good, arguably - I wouldn’t be surprised to see it nerfed to not work on auto-hitting weapons. Flamer units in a pod will do real damage and then be hard to charge.

[Kallas]

That +3 to flamer range thing is fantastic, it’s true. Too good, arguably - I wouldn’t be surprised to see it nerfed to not work on auto-hitting weapons. Flamer units in a pod will do real damage and then be hard to charge.

If you nerf Long-range Marksmen to not apply to flamers, they won't get taken. Like they weren't taken before Codex 2.0.

 

And there are plenty of other options that are competitive; LRM is basically for flamers, as a 3" increase for a Bolter is not exactly interesting.

[L30n1d4s]

This isn't really the place to discuss this, but what if they amended the rule as follows:

 

 

"Long-Range Marksmen" -- All units with this trait add 4" to the range of Pistols and Grenades and 6" to the range of all other ranged weapons (weapons that auto-hit as part of their rules, such as Flamers, are not affected by this trait).

 

 

This would prevent the cheese with flamers, but still give a significant buff to the shooting of the rest of the army to make it worth taking in a competitive list (i.e. 30" range Demolisher Cannons/Grav Cannons/Hurricane Bolters, 24" range Boltstorm Gauntlets on Aggressors, 36" range Plasma Incinerators (so 18" Rapid Fire distance), 36" range for Intercessors with Bolt Rifles, 30" range Multi-Meltas, etc. etc.). This would also make Pistols a little more "stand-offish," with 16" range for most of them and even let Grenades be thrown when you Deep Strike (i.e. most Grenades are 6" range, so this would take them up to 10"... great for Reivers with their Shock Grenades). 

[Mandragola]

Flamers do mostly suck, it’s true. My solution for this would be to fix them for everyone, not to give a successor trait that’s called “long range marksmen” (and not long-squirty flamers) to allow a particular sub-faction access to worthwhile flamers.

 

It’s annoying when two factions have the same thing but they’re much better for one of them. Now, everyone but Codex marines still has kill shot, for example, so their predators are maybe worth taking.

[Captain Idaho]

I used Vanguard the other day and found them phenomenal. 4 Lightning Claws guys threw out 17 attacks! It was beautiful.

 

I'm finding the changes to the Codex have really boosted everything I wanted on the table. Classic Marines can really take advantage of both Devastator and the Tactical Doctrine in the same game, which I find more flexible than the Primaris generally looking to sit in the Tactical Doctrine all game.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

For the most part I think the classic/firstborn units are better from a competitive viewpoint. Especially the characters, and close combat units. So I think that a lot of players with established marine armies will jump back in now that the fraction isn't terrible.

 

On the other hand I think most players that are starting a new army will stick with primaris. There are lot of boxsets that make starting them cheaper and in my experience most people see them as a replacement. So new players will be guided towards them.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Anyone tried out terminators with the new rules yet?