SydonianDragoon404 Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 I'm very wary of trying terminators right now because stalker bolt rifles exist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5374456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCE1981 Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 I used Vanguard the other day and found them phenomenal. 4 Lightning Claws guys threw out 17 attacks! It was beautiful. I'm finding the changes to the Codex have really boosted everything I wanted on the table. Classic Marines can really take advantage of both Devastator and the Tactical Doctrine in the same game, which I find more flexible than the Primaris generally looking to sit in the Tactical Doctrine all game. I disagree. Primaris benefit greatly from the Tactical and Assault Doctrines, their extra attack really helps them. This also gives some overlap and divergence between Primaris and Firstborn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5374470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 I don't see many players giving up the Tactical Doctrine for Intercessors to have -1 in close combat very often. It's nice to have the option of course. I like the difference in style of units - Primaris being less flexible in role but very good at their tasks, Classics being more varied and flexible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5374508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 Genestealers Cult do a similar alpha strike hand flamer bomb and haven't been nerfed GW might have noticed players wont use flamers without incentives Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5374522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montford Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 I am interested in fielding my Marines under the new rules. As they are no longer my main army I haven't bought any Primaris for them yet, so I'll be fielding full old school. Even so they are much tougher than ever before, and a vanilla 'smash chaplain' caught my eye: 90 points and 1 CP gets you up to S8 AP -2 flat 4 damage with five swings hitting on 2s and a 1 in 6 chance of a bonus mortal wound (if the mantra goes off and you're charging). The power of prayer! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5374560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 I ran an army of old Marines (and Aggressors) this weekend using Iron Hands chapter tactics. Across four games they performed exceptionally well against a variety of targets. My 1500 list was: Hidden Content Captain 2 CP for Chapter Master - Relic: The Primarch's Wrath - WLT: Storm of Fire (I forgot this in every game lol) Lieutenant - MC Bolter Tactical Squad - Missile Launcher Tactical Squad - Missile Launcher Tactical Squad - Missile Launcher Dreadnought - Twin Heavy Flamer - Fist with Stormbolter 2 Company Veterans (filling points, extra wounds for the buff characters) Devastators - 4 Missile Launchers - Cherub Contemptor Mortis - Twin Kheres - Cyclone Missile Launcher VANGUARD Chaplain - Terminator Armour - Combi-Flamer Cataphractii Terminators - 5 Storm Bolters, Grenade Harness - 3 Power Fists/ 2 Chainfists Aggeessor Squad - 4 Twin Flame Gauntlets Relic Contemptor - Dread Fist/ Chainfist, 2 Plasma Blasters Far from optimised and I'm not sure if Battlescribe had all the right points but missile launchers with AP3 Kraks and AP1 Frags under reroll bubbles are just rude. I mainly stayed in the Devastator Doctrine but did find myself switching to Tactical later in the game when most armoured units were dealt with and bolters were in range. Bolter discipline is also utterly excellent I found; 2 shots at 24 really helps the output. 100% recommend the Primarch's Wrath too, that thing did WORK in the hands of a Chapter Master. You don't always need to smash with your captains! Shock assault also came into its own, things like Assassin's charging in have to be a little more careful when two remaining squad members strike back with 6 attacks! Ultimately, the humble Firstborns weakness is a single wound. IH helped this (FNP!) but obviously not enough, however Primaris can't exactly caddy a Missile Launcher around, which is where the real damage is. PS Aggressors are bent now. Take as many as you can. 4D6 hits per dude is so much fun. My record was 64 this weekend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5374748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 I ran an army of old Marines (and Aggressors) this weekend using Iron Hands chapter tactics. Across four games they performed exceptionally well against a variety of targets. My 1500 list was: Hidden Content Captain 2 CP for Chapter Master - Relic: The Primarch's Wrath - WLT: Storm of Fire (I forgot this in every game lol) Lieutenant - MC Bolter Tactical Squad - Missile Launcher Tactical Squad - Missile Launcher Tactical Squad - Missile Launcher Dreadnought - Twin Heavy Flamer - Fist with Stormbolter 2 Company Veterans (filling points, extra wounds for the buff characters) Devastators - 4 Missile Launchers - Cherub Contemptor Mortis - Twin Kheres - Cyclone Missile Launcher VANGUARD Chaplain - Terminator Armour - Combi-Flamer Cataphractii Terminators - 5 Storm Bolters, Grenade Harness - 3 Power Fists/ 2 Chainfists Aggeessor Squad - 4 Twin Flame Gauntlets Relic Contemptor - Dread Fist/ Chainfist, 2 Plasma Blasters Far from optimised and I'm not sure if Battlescribe had all the right points but missile launchers with AP3 Kraks and AP1 Frags under reroll bubbles are just rude. I mainly stayed in the Devastator Doctrine but did find myself switching to Tactical later in the game when most armoured units were dealt with and bolters were in range. Bolter discipline is also utterly excellent I found; 2 shots at 24 really helps the output. 100% recommend the Primarch's Wrath too, that thing did WORK in the hands of a Chapter Master. You don't always need to smash with your captains! Shock assault also came into its own, things like Assassin's charging in have to be a little more careful when two remaining squad members strike back with 6 attacks! Ultimately, the humble Firstborns weakness is a single wound. IH helped this (FNP!) but obviously not enough, however Primaris can't exactly caddy a Missile Launcher around, which is where the real damage is. PS Aggressors are bent now. Take as many as you can. 4D6 hits per dude is so much fun. My record was 64 this weekend. That sounds like a fun game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5374749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 Four games! 1) Against Sisters & some Scout bikes using Arbites Models + all four assassins. Vigilus mission where I had to get to the back lines essentially. Basically managed to slowly walk up the board missiling things for an eventual win, dealing with deep strikes as they came. Eversor is SCARY and explodes... 2) VS Necrons with 30 Warriors, Overlord, Destoryer Lord, 5 Wraiths, Scarabs and a TESSERACT VAULT. Utterly brutal open war game with Acid Rain, Chevron deployment and 3 objectives. If you hold the most at turn 5 you win, or if you ever hold 3 you win automatically. Won by holding one objective with my captain on 1 wound thanks to some incredible FNP rolls. He had the Vault on 7 wounds and ten warriors left, I had captain on one wound, and two terminators! 3) Against Deff Skull orks. 3 Shock Dragstas, 3x10 Grots, weirdboy, Boyz in a truck, Squig Van, Warboss on bike, Mek on bike with shokk relic gun, Battlewagon with 5 Meganobz, 2 rokkit coptas. Open war with deployment zones meeting in the middle, objective on each side, if you hold two you win. I seized the initiative and managed to pop the Battlewagon and get my Classic Dread into his Meganobz, killing 2 as well as a few pot shot wounds. He retaliated by zapping my contemptor in one go, and my Mortis with Dragstas. However Aggressors killed a TRUKK and ten grots with overwatch before a dragsta held them up And the boys got in, however they didn't kill more than two. Interrupted with my dread to kill two more nobs aswell. Only managed to play turn two but by the end of that he only had 3 buggies left as my shooting took its toll. 4) My guys made up 1/4 of a 6000pt mega game. Not much to say, I dealt decent shooting damage all game (I really love missiles) but a Kytan bonked two Dreads straight out :D such is big games! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5374769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sultansean Posted August 27, 2019 Author Share Posted August 27, 2019 I'm very wary of trying terminators right now because stalker bolt rifles exist. I have yet to see a stalker bolt rifle on the field. But that doesn't mean that won't show up, they do seem to be the ideal weapon for dealing with other primaris, and as a side affect terminators. With White Scars being able to get charge bonuses, dropping in 10 terminators (335 points now) shooting one target with 40 bolter shots (Strat to hit on 2s) and charging another with 27 powerfists (strat to hit on 3's) seems like it would wreck some things if you can clear the screen before they come down and get characters into place to buff the charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Old marines with the supplements will probably be really good, base SM codex at least one up from where they were. I got rid of my loyalist old marines ages ago, I am planning long term with primaris are only going strength to strength. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 You basically want terminators to arrive in the Tactical Doctrine now so they have that tasty ap1 on the mass amount of shots they get. The +1 to hit is great too for one CP. I used some Cataphractii at the weekend and they certainly played the part. You just need to ensure to plant them somewhere your opponent will have a tough time harming them. Objectives I cover work wonders! IH CT for the FNP is useful too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 That’s a lot of missiles Charlo! Oldmarines have some definite improvements now with the most notable being sternguard and devastators. I’m still not sure about tactical marines though, even with the Lower points. I guess it’s a case of if you can use their ability to use transports as well as special weapon access that really defines your experience with them. Assault cannon razorbacks are fairly nasty now with the ap-2 really pushing them into the extra dangerous range. Anyone having a positive experience with vanguard or bikers so far? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mertbl Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 My bikes always seem to be priority target #1(playing as white scars) and I've only had 1 bike out of 12 make it out of turn 1. My vanguard have been amazing. 9 LC jump pack vanguard killed 8 shield drones and 20 firewarriors in 1 charge with a bit of character support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 That’s a lot of missiles Charlo! Yep! 10 Kraks/ Frags a turn across the list (9 after as the Cherub is gone) is pretty potent and most importantly, versatile. I really found them effective across the games. While a Lascannon is only 5pts more, you get an extra missile Launcher in the list for every four you buy, which adds up quick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 My bikes always seem to be priority target #1(playing as white scars) and I've only had 1 bike out of 12 make it out of turn 1. My vanguard have been amazing. 9 LC jump pack vanguard killed 8 shield drones and 20 firewarriors in 1 charge with a bit of character support. I imagine the best way to protect your bikes is to outflank them for a devastating deployment later on. Did you use the 3++ strat from the main codex on them and they still fell in turn 1? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuronFlux Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Now, everyone but Codex marines still has kill shot, for example, so their predators are maybe worth taking.How do you figure? The old codex has been replaced, RAW no space marine army has killshot. If you disagree, please provide an official source because I haven't been able to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 If for example it’s in BA codex they still get it wow so lucky. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mertbl Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Went 2nd every time. I thought of outflanking but I used 3 squads of 4, each with 2 flamers. I needed them to clear the screens. My bikes always seem to be priority target #1(playing as white scars) and I've only had 1 bike out of 12 make it out of turn 1. My vanguard have been amazing. 9 LC jump pack vanguard killed 8 shield drones and 20 firewarriors in 1 charge with a bit of character support. I imagine the best way to protect your bikes is to outflank them for a devastating deployment later on. Did you use the 3++ strat from the main codex on them and they still fell in turn 1? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCE1981 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Maybe I should bring back my old 5th Edition army list, only Primaris-ized. My old General list was (2500 pts) Khan on bike Librarian on bike Chaplain with jump pack Assault squad 10-man (these guys did WORK sergeant had a Thunderhammer and in one game killed 5x Carnifexes!!!) 5x 5-man bike squads Veteran bike squad 5-man 3x predators 2x ironclads in drop pods 1x 10-manSternguard in drop pod I think I can whittle that down to 2,000. This was a fun list I either completely rolled my opponent or got rolled myself. Either way both me and my opponent loved it because it played so differently from everything else. I frequently got props for my opponent having getting the feeling of a Commander desperately trying to adjust to an ever changing situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Maybe kill shot may return as a stratagem in a new specialist detachment type in a future campaign book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Best suited for Ironhands maybe? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Best suited for Ironhands maybe? I don't think it would be fair to gate it exclusively like that. Kill Shot is more of a general Space Marine strat in my eyes. Being part of a specialist detachment that any SM can take would be better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Possibly :) I don't think it has shown to be particularly effective in the old Dex, same with the trio of Landspeeders. Ironhands (maybe Raven Guard?) might be the only ones to pull it off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Best suited for Ironhands maybe? I don't think it would be fair to gate it exclusively like that. Kill Shot is more of a general Space Marine strat in my eyes. Being part of a specialist detachment that any SM can take would be better. I thought the same about Empyric Channeling (which I used often in my Blood Ravens force in early 8th) but that became a tweaked version of itself as an Ultramarine power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Something I spotted while flicking through the codex last night, the Cataphractti Terminator Captain can take a storm shield and the usual choice of terminator weapons as well as a relic blade. Not too familiar with the rules for 8th ed but do invunlerable saves still stack? So the captain would be a 2+/2++ 'come at me everything'? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357917-codex-20-the-old-breed-strikes-back/page/2/#findComment-5375948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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