The Emperor and the Primarchs

[Thelightnthedark]

So this has bothered me for a while and would just like to see what other people think.

So everyone uses the passage in the Master of Mankind where he's talking to a mechanicum agent about how he sees the primarchs as just weapons, but earlier in the book it talks about how people see the Emperor how they want to see him. So why would it surprise people that he would be emotionless and uncaring when around the mechanicum? It's what they would want to see and hear.

Also the Emperor mentioned Pinocchio as a reference to his uncaring of the primarch and that they are just tools. And yes I know that the book is a lot darker than the movie, and they have different lessons they are trying to teach. But in both the book and the movie it is clean that Geppetto loves Pinocchio. So I'm not sure if this is just abd having a different view of Pinocchio or as a vailed way of saying that he loves them in a way that the mechanicum wouldn't know.

Just my thoughts wanted to see what other people thought given the seeming swing back and forth of how He seems to be betrayed.

[Roomsky]

So this has bothered me for a while and would just like to see what other people think.

So everyone uses the passage in the Master of Mankind where he's talking to a mechanicum agent about how he sees the primarchs as just weapons, but earlier in the book it talks about how people see the Emperor how they want to see him. So why would it surprise people that he would be emotionless and uncaring when around the mechanicum? It's what they would want to see and hear.

Also the Emperor mentioned Pinocchio as a reference to his uncaring of the primarch and that they are just tools. And yes I know that the book is a lot darker than the movie, and they have different lessons they are trying to teach. But in both the book and the movie it is clean that Geppetto loves Pinocchio. So I'm not sure if this is just abd having a different view of Pinocchio or as a vailed way of saying that he loves them in a way that the mechanicum wouldn't know.

Just my thoughts wanted to see what other people thought given the seeming swing back and forth of how He seems to be betrayed.

 

It's a pretty common interpretation of the text that I believe ADB himself supports. It can also be seen in his interactions with the Custodes; of course those other hand-crafted gene-weapons who may or may not be incorruptible would want the Emperor to act in a way that suggests they're his real sons.

 

The issue for the argument against is that it completely goes against the portrayal of the Emperor in other works. The Horus Heresy series is meant to be taken together to form a full picture, he shows kindness in several other books. But no, because ADB wrote a novel called The Master of Mankind, it's treated as some kind of expose, when really he's not much more present than in other works. There's no reason to take MoM as being any more or less canon than the works surrounding it.

 

The argument against yours is that ADB really should have had a scene within the book featuring a primarch and the Emperor to hammer home the point. It already makes use of flashbacks, and Rogal Dorn is in the same building, there's no reason that such a positive contrast couldn't have featured. I agree with you and Aaron, I think the novel is definitely about how the big E comes across to different parties, but the lack of a scene of kind paternity sort of undermines Aaron's intent.

[Knight of the Raven]

I distinctly remember people mentioning precisely that of course Arkhan Land will hear the Emperor talk about the primarchs as an artisan would talk about his tools. It's possible A D-B was involved in these threads and clarified some things about his book as well.

Many people just don't get unreliable narration, I've found. Or even just in-character narration, sometimes.

It's also possible to care about someone, perhaps even love them with all your heart, and still consider them a means to your ends. Possibly first and foremost, too. Yes, I'm looking at you, Princess Celestia.

Going back to Pinocchio, I've not touched that tale in decades, but I recall that puppet to be built ultimately to fulfill a dream; of course there's a very large chasm between 'I wish for a child whom I'll love as my own flesh' and 'I wish for my species to be freed from the predations of all those who wish it harm...'

 

One hitch in the theory that the Emperor's words are influenced by the receiver's own personality, beliefs or values is Guilliman's meeting with his father in... Dark Imperium, I believe?

 

I've read that Roboute was described as realizing (or at least believing) that he wasn't even a man handing the God-Emperor of Mankind a rasp to file the bars of His cell as far as He was concerned, but that he was the rasp itself.

Something that doesn't exactly mesh with what Guilliman would want to hear about himself.

Of course, there may be a very big difference between the Emperor of the Great Crusade and the God-Emperor of the Ecclesiarchy-bound Imperium...

 

edit: can you tell I started writing this post before Roomsky replied?

[b1soul]

If the Emperor conducted himself in a kindly paternal manner toward the Primarchs from their POV, all the resentment and ultimately the Heresy would probably not have happened. This leads me to believe that it seems quite likely that the Emp is the cold and calculating utilitarian and he wasn't that great at effectively manipulating his underlings' emotions. He could do it sometimes, but he slips up quite often.

[Klod]

I often hear that people become dissapointed with the Emperor's "emotionless and uncaring". But it somehow never bothered me. Probably because I never saw Him as somone who could be judged by human standarts.

 

He is a transcendent being of immeasurable intellect, galaxy-spanning plans and inconceivable ambition. Morality and ethics don't apply to him because they are concepts that were made by humans and for humans.

[BitsHammer]

I just want to point out that in "The Board is Set" the Emperor clearly calls them his sons to Malcador, someone whom (unless they show otherwisw later) he's never hidden anything from.

[The Unseen]

They are both.

The Emperors sons are just that, his sons.

But they are also weapons He spent a long time and a lot of energy to create.

They weren't created for companionship out of some desire for the big E to have similar beings around with him, they were created to reunite humanity and rule the galaxy.

Paternal concerns are less important than the continued survival of the entire human race.

 

I think there's a line somewhere from malcador towards one of the Primarchs, where malcador says you should be happy that, however distant the Emperor might appear to be in your conversations, be happy he can talk to you at all, as His thoughts are so far removed from mundanity of course he's a little odd.

 

And yeah, it's pretty clear that the person viewing the Emperor has a great deal to do with how he is perceived.

What he looks and sounds like probably has more to do with the person looking than the Emps himself, along with how perceptive the individual may be.

 

 

So of course the better adjusted Primarchs see him as a distant but caring father who has an empire to run and a species to save, like Gman, or the Khan, the maladjusted see some of their own inner failings manifest in what they see, like Mortarions disgust at his own failure at killing his xenos dad, the Custodes interpret his words of appreciation as meaning they are the ones he truly cares for, Land sees him as an expression of pure logic, etc.

 

That doesn't change the fact that the Emperor as a whole was a pretty terrible father, but again, nigh omnipotent super being with a galaxy to conquer and all.

I'd imagine even if he was the absolute most caring and benevolent creature in existence, he'd still struggle to show that and still get :cuss done, and he very clearly wasn't that emotional to start with.

 

And the being sitting on the Golden Throne ala M41, has been sitting inside a pain engine fueling a massive psychic beacon and holding a massive hole in reality shut by being fed thousands of mentally anguished souls for the past 10 MILLENIA

The fact that he isn't just an outright screaming pyschotic gibbering mess that hasn't dragged Terra and the everything around it into the Warp is a literal miracle.

That being is not the Emperor from the Great Crusade and Heresy era, but something else entirely at this point.

So anything he says to Gman is very suspect as far as coloring his previous incarnations mindset.

[Huggtand]

One of the really great things about how MOM is written is that we are not given an absolute answer one way of the other how the Emperor regards or feel about anyone! not even the custodians   We only hear him speak through everyone’s own perception, he is everything to everyone. Even Ra questions if what the Emperor says and show him is the real deal or not.

 

"When I speak to you, to others, am I speaking aloud? Does my mouth move and form the shapes of human language? Does a human voice emerge? Or is it merely how mortal minds process my presence and psychic will?"

 

This means that we always have to filter what is said through the listeners expectations:

 

- All custodies are mistrusting of the primarchs and space marines and blame them for all that is going down. In addition to their high regards of themselves as the Emperors companions it makes sense that they “hear” big E “speak” of everyone else as tools and of themselves as valuable assets and companions.

 

- Land sees the Omnisia, logical, detached and without emotions. He "hears" a divine monotone Emperor without any feelings for his creations.

 

- In the prologue when the Emperor speaks to Magnus he "hears" his name, not “nr. 15” as for example Land "hears".

 

- As The Unseen writes the different primarchs sees him differently based on their own perspective, some perceive warmth and some not.

 

If you don´t apply the filter, big E is just sounding like uncaring as-hole (and maybe that the truth. Who knows  ) As such, MoM actually does not brakes with other lore, it just gives an more in depth picture how different people engages with the big E. 

 

 

Does this means he is the cuddly father figure to the primarchs? Hell no, every description from their POV describe him as distant and aloof to them also. Could he feel love for them? Why not, in so much a being such as the Emperor could.

 

Does it means that he regards the custodes as his closes companions and confidantes? We don´t know but they regard them as such at least, and that´s what we "hear" from them 

[Ishagu]

As mentioned above I think MoM is a great novel but it does lack that one scene of interaction between the Emperor and a Primarch.

 

It would really have driven the point across that different individuals see him and the way he speaks differently, so maybe all points of view were true.

 

He really did see the Primarchs as his sons, and also as his greatest tools for conquest.

 

He really did care for them, yet he really was prepared to throw them away to achieve his greater goals, etc

 

This kind of duality is more fascinating.

[MegaVolt87]

Let's be real, if all our dads fused and became the Emperor tomorrow, we became legionaries/ primarchs/ Imperial Army the HH would still definitely happen probably sooner than in the lore.  

The Emperor tells us himself he is just a man, this is further backed up by the fact he is no perfect puppet master or makes the best decisions as the goes along. 

[Kenzaburo]

Oof, such a simple question with such a complicated answer...

 

As the others have pointed out: From what we get from Guilliman in Dark Imperium, Big E seems to be different in 40k than during the Crusade and Heresy. It's no surprise really, as Roomsky and others have explained. To Guilliman though this change is profound. No surprise there, to be honest, because things like that happen all the time. If a loved one got into a traumatic accident, ended up in a prolonged coma with the prospect of brain-damage, chances are high that that person, were he or she to awaken again, be different than we might remember. I unfortunately speak from second-hand experience here and have seen the havoc that wrought upon the relatives and friends of said loved one.

 

About Big E in 30k: Well, that one passage from MOM is the problematic part, right? There are minor parts in other fiction, that support the Emperor's calculating view of the Primarchs. The last one I chanced upon was in The Emperor's Legion (a 40K novel), where the Custodes POV character mentions knowing the Emperor's original plan for the Primarchs and how much they misunderstood their position.

 

And still, we get to see the other side of the coin quite often, too. A central key character to this is Malcador. When he talks to the Primarchs about their father, he will sometimes mention the fatherly feelings of Big E for the Primarchs. He tends to explain that the emperor is a busy guy and concerned with sooo many different parts that most people would fail to grasp, but the Primarch project and his artificial offspring are dear to his heart. It comes up in discussions with Russ and the Khan and is mentioned especially when it comes to the fall of Magnus at one time. How Magnus did misunderstand the Emperor and such. 

 

Then there's the Primarchs novel on Curze (BEWARE, SPOILERS!!!): This is debatable, because the book is from the POV of an unreliable narrator as well, but it might be that Big E talks to Curze at the end of the book. The way he is portrayed there, the way he argues with his son makes clear that he loved his sons and still does. 

 

Now it is up to us, what do we make of it? Funny enough, we as readers are similar to those people who meet the Emperor in person: It is up to us to decide, how we want to see the Emperor. I prefer him as a distant and at times severely problematic father figure, who does care for his sons, but can't care enough because of all the greater things on his mind. And I'd agree to a certain ruthlessness, because he designed his sons not only as offspring but with a definitive vision. That one needs to be fulfilled, come hell or high water and if they like it or not.  And therein lies the problem...as most of us can understand. :) At least if you ever had a fight with your parents about how they always wanted you to go to law or med school and you went for an entirely different direction in your life. 

[TorvaldTheMild]

So this has bothered me for a while and would just like to see what other people think.

So everyone uses the passage in the Master of Mankind where he's talking to a mechanicum agent about how he sees the primarchs as just weapons, but earlier in the book it talks about how people see the Emperor how they want to see him. So why would it surprise people that he would be emotionless and uncaring when around the mechanicum? It's what they would want to see and hear.

Also the Emperor mentioned Pinocchio as a reference to his uncaring of the primarch and that they are just tools. And yes I know that the book is a lot darker than the movie, and they have different lessons they are trying to teach. But in both the book and the movie it is clean that Geppetto loves Pinocchio. So I'm not sure if this is just abd having a different view of Pinocchio or as a vailed way of saying that he loves them in a way that the mechanicum wouldn't know.

Just my thoughts wanted to see what other people thought given the seeming swing back and forth of how He seems to be betrayed.

He wasn't referencing the bit where Pinocchio's father loves him, he was referencing the fact that Pinocchio wanted to be a real boy and if someone wants to be a real boy like the Primarchs then its best to treat them like they are by acting like their father.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

So this has bothered me for a while and would just like to see what other people think.

So everyone uses the passage in the Master of Mankind where he's talking to a mechanicum agent about how he sees the primarchs as just weapons, but earlier in the book it talks about how people see the Emperor how they want to see him. So why would it surprise people that he would be emotionless and uncaring when around the mechanicum? It's what they would want to see and hear.

Also the Emperor mentioned Pinocchio as a reference to his uncaring of the primarch and that they are just tools. And yes I know that the book is a lot darker than the movie, and they have different lessons they are trying to teach. But in both the book and the movie it is clean that Geppetto loves Pinocchio. So I'm not sure if this is just abd having a different view of Pinocchio or as a vailed way of saying that he loves them in a way that the mechanicum wouldn't know.

Just my thoughts wanted to see what other people thought given the seeming swing back and forth of how He seems to be betrayed.

He wasn't referencing the bit where Pinocchio's father loves him, he was referencing the fact that Pinocchio wanted to be a real boy and if someone wants to be a real boy like the Primarchs then its best to treat them like they are by acting like their father.

 

 

Spot on, you're the first person I've seen reference that. 

[Moonreaper666]

Oof, such a simple question with such a complicated answer...

 

As the others have pointed out: From what we get from Guilliman in Dark Imperium, Big E seems to be different in 40k than during the Crusade and Heresy. It's no surprise really, as Roomsky and others have explained. To Guilliman though this change is profound. No surprise there, to be honest, because things like that happen all the time. If a loved one got into a traumatic accident, ended up in a prolonged coma with the prospect of brain-damage, chances are high that that person, were he or she to awaken again, be different than we might remember. I unfortunately speak from second-hand experience here and have seen the havoc that wrought upon the relatives and friends of said loved one.

 

About Big E in 30k: Well, that one passage from MOM is the problematic part, right? There are minor parts in other fiction, that support the Emperor's calculating view of the Primarchs. The last one I chanced upon was in The Emperor's Legion (a 40K novel), where the Custodes POV character mentions knowing the Emperor's original plan for the Primarchs and how much they misunderstood their position.

 

And still, we get to see the other side of the coin quite often, too. A central key character to this is Malcador. When he talks to the Primarchs about their father, he will sometimes mention the fatherly feelings of Big E for the Primarchs. He tends to explain that the emperor is a busy guy and concerned with sooo many different parts that most people would fail to grasp, but the Primarch project and his artificial offspring are dear to his heart. It comes up in discussions with Russ and the Khan and is mentioned especially when it comes to the fall of Magnus at one time. How Magnus did misunderstand the Emperor and such.

 

Then there's the Primarchs novel on Curze (BEWARE, SPOILERS!!!): This is debatable, because the book is from the POV of an unreliable narrator as well, but it might be that Big E talks to Curze at the end of the book. The way he is portrayed there, the way he argues with his son makes clear that he loved his sons and still does.

 

Now it is up to us, what do we make of it? Funny enough, we as readers are similar to those people who meet the Emperor in person: It is up to us to decide, how we want to see the Emperor. I prefer him as a distant and at times severely problematic father figure, who does care for his sons, but can't care enough because of all the greater things on his mind. And I'd agree to a certain ruthlessness, because he designed his sons not only as offspring but with a definitive vision. That one needs to be fulfilled, come hell or high water and if they like it or not. And therein lies the problem...as most of us can understand. :) At least if you ever had a fight with your parents about how they always wanted you to go to law or med school and you went for an entirely different direction in your life.

The Board is Set, written by Gav Thorpe, clearly states that the Emperor favored some of his sons over others. Both Emps and Malcador knew that the Heresy was inevitable, but they DID NOT KNOW which Primarchs would go traitor!

 

It is clear that the Emperor views almost everyone as tools first, living beings later. The way he teleported Angron against his will shows just how unemotional the Emperor can be. Similar evidence can be found with his treatment of Perturabo and Lorgar

 

Raiden best said it in his ending in MK11 that logic without love is worth nothing and will bring only pain.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Oof, such a simple question with such a complicated answer...

 

As the others have pointed out: From what we get from Guilliman in Dark Imperium, Big E seems to be different in 40k than during the Crusade and Heresy. It's no surprise really, as Roomsky and others have explained. To Guilliman though this change is profound. No surprise there, to be honest, because things like that happen all the time. If a loved one got into a traumatic accident, ended up in a prolonged coma with the prospect of brain-damage, chances are high that that person, were he or she to awaken again, be different than we might remember. I unfortunately speak from second-hand experience here and have seen the havoc that wrought upon the relatives and friends of said loved one.

 

About Big E in 30k: Well, that one passage from MOM is the problematic part, right? There are minor parts in other fiction, that support the Emperor's calculating view of the Primarchs. The last one I chanced upon was in The Emperor's Legion (a 40K novel), where the Custodes POV character mentions knowing the Emperor's original plan for the Primarchs and how much they misunderstood their position.

 

And still, we get to see the other side of the coin quite often, too. A central key character to this is Malcador. When he talks to the Primarchs about their father, he will sometimes mention the fatherly feelings of Big E for the Primarchs. He tends to explain that the emperor is a busy guy and concerned with sooo many different parts that most people would fail to grasp, but the Primarch project and his artificial offspring are dear to his heart. It comes up in discussions with Russ and the Khan and is mentioned especially when it comes to the fall of Magnus at one time. How Magnus did misunderstand the Emperor and such.

 

Then there's the Primarchs novel on Curze (BEWARE, SPOILERS!!!): This is debatable, because the book is from the POV of an unreliable narrator as well, but it might be that Big E talks to Curze at the end of the book. The way he is portrayed there, the way he argues with his son makes clear that he loved his sons and still does.

 

Now it is up to us, what do we make of it? Funny enough, we as readers are similar to those people who meet the Emperor in person: It is up to us to decide, how we want to see the Emperor. I prefer him as a distant and at times severely problematic father figure, who does care for his sons, but can't care enough because of all the greater things on his mind. And I'd agree to a certain ruthlessness, because he designed his sons not only as offspring but with a definitive vision. That one needs to be fulfilled, come hell or high water and if they like it or not. And therein lies the problem...as most of us can understand. At least if you ever had a fight with your parents about how they always wanted you to go to law or med school and you went for an entirely different direction in your life.

The Board is Set, written by Gav Thorpe, clearly states that the Emperor favored some of his sons over others. Both Emps and Malcador knew that the Heresy was inevitable, but they DID NOT KNOW which Primarchs would go traitor!

 

It is clear that the Emperor views almost everyone as tools first, living beings later. The way he teleported Angron against his will shows just how unemotional the Emperor can be. Similar evidence can be found with his treatment of Perturabo and Lorgar

 

Raiden best said it in his ending in MK11 that logic without love is worth nothing and will bring only pain.

 

 

Conjecture. 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Kinda justifies the whole traitor element in many cases.

 

Angron the angry child.

Mortarion the depressed child.

Magnus the shceeming child.

Flulgrim the spoilt brat.

 

We all know fathers dont get on with sons in many cases but when theres 20 of them.....

[BitsHammer]

Kinda justifies the whole traitor element in many cases.

 

Angron the angry child.

Mortarion the depressed child.

Magnus the shceeming child.

Flulgrim the spoilt brat.

 

We all know fathers dont get on with sons in many cases but when theres 20 of them.....

Angron could ease the suffering of others just by being near them. The nails ruined that.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Dont get me wrong, my stereotypes are derogatory at best. Main issue is we never actually see the internal workings of the emperors relationships with his sons. Or more importantly what he did to fix the broken ties.

 

Just always looks like "i am the emperor, my clearly unstable son with literal nails in his head and reduced insanity should be put in charge of a genocide capable force"

 

Really emperor....you couldn't just talk with him telepathically on a higher plane of existence and give him a hug?

[BitsHammer]

Dont get me wrong, my stereotypes are derogatory at best. Main issue is we never actually see the internal workings of the emperors relationships with his sons. Or more importantly what he did to fix the broken ties.

 

Just always looks like "i am the emperor, my clearly unstable son with literal nails in his head and reduced insanity should be put in charge of a genocide capable force"

 

Really emperor....you couldn't just talk with him telepathically on a higher plane of existence and give him a hug?

He had Arkham looking into removing the nails, and said nails had a bad reaction with psykers so doing that might have killed or hurt Angron (more so than they were already killing him).

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

Oof, such a simple question with such a complicated answer...

 

As the others have pointed out: From what we get from Guilliman in Dark Imperium, Big E seems to be different in 40k than during the Crusade and Heresy. It's no surprise really, as Roomsky and others have explained. To Guilliman though this change is profound. No surprise there, to be honest, because things like that happen all the time. If a loved one got into a traumatic accident, ended up in a prolonged coma with the prospect of brain-damage, chances are high that that person, were he or she to awaken again, be different than we might remember. I unfortunately speak from second-hand experience here and have seen the havoc that wrought upon the relatives and friends of said loved one.

 

About Big E in 30k: Well, that one passage from MOM is the problematic part, right? There are minor parts in other fiction, that support the Emperor's calculating view of the Primarchs. The last one I chanced upon was in The Emperor's Legion (a 40K novel), where the Custodes POV character mentions knowing the Emperor's original plan for the Primarchs and how much they misunderstood their position.

 

And still, we get to see the other side of the coin quite often, too. A central key character to this is Malcador. When he talks to the Primarchs about their father, he will sometimes mention the fatherly feelings of Big E for the Primarchs. He tends to explain that the emperor is a busy guy and concerned with sooo many different parts that most people would fail to grasp, but the Primarch project and his artificial offspring are dear to his heart. It comes up in discussions with Russ and the Khan and is mentioned especially when it comes to the fall of Magnus at one time. How Magnus did misunderstand the Emperor and such.

 

Then there's the Primarchs novel on Curze (BEWARE, SPOILERS!!!): This is debatable, because the book is from the POV of an unreliable narrator as well, but it might be that Big E talks to Curze at the end of the book. The way he is portrayed there, the way he argues with his son makes clear that he loved his sons and still does.

 

Now it is up to us, what do we make of it? Funny enough, we as readers are similar to those people who meet the Emperor in person: It is up to us to decide, how we want to see the Emperor. I prefer him as a distant and at times severely problematic father figure, who does care for his sons, but can't care enough because of all the greater things on his mind. And I'd agree to a certain ruthlessness, because he designed his sons not only as offspring but with a definitive vision. That one needs to be fulfilled, come hell or high water and if they like it or not. And therein lies the problem...as most of us can understand. At least if you ever had a fight with your parents about how they always wanted you to go to law or med school and you went for an entirely different direction in your life.

The Board is Set, written by Gav Thorpe, clearly states that the Emperor favored some of his sons over others. Both Emps and Malcador knew that the Heresy was inevitable, but they DID NOT KNOW which Primarchs would go traitor!

 

It is clear that the Emperor views almost everyone as tools first, living beings later. The way he teleported Angron against his will shows just how unemotional the Emperor can be. Similar evidence can be found with his treatment of Perturabo and Lorgar

 

Raiden best said it in his ending in MK11 that logic without love is worth nothing and will bring only pain.

 

Conjecture.

 

That isn't exactly conjecture, Malcador told his dying astropath that the Emperor and he actually paved the way for the HH, by pitting the Primarchs against each other and treating them poorly. The thunderwarriors had a sell by date, but the Astartes are functionally immortal, so the way they planned to get rid of them was a civil war, that being the HH. Though some people believe that he was just telling the astropath that to console her, but I don't otherwise he wouldn't say 'would it console you if I told you..." and when she asked would the emperor win, Malcador would have said yes if he was consoling her rather than 'I can't see the future.'

 

 

 

Dont get me wrong, my stereotypes are derogatory at best. Main issue is we never actually see the internal workings of the emperors relationships with his sons. Or more importantly what he did to fix the broken ties.

 

Just always looks like "i am the emperor, my clearly unstable son with literal nails in his head and reduced insanity should be put in charge of a genocide capable force"

 

Really emperor....you couldn't just talk with him telepathically on a higher plane of existence and give him a hug?

He had Arkham looking into removing the nails, and said nails had a bad reaction with psykers so doing that might have killed or hurt Angron (more so than they were already killing him).

 

I love this lore. Because Angron is exactly like Khorne, Khorne loaths magic, but he technically is magic and he uses it, though he loathes in in fighting, so Khorne refuses to use it, just like Angron was psychically gifted to some degree and the butchers nails stops him from using it. Its a nice bit of duality.

[helterskelter]

 

Kinda justifies the whole traitor element in many cases.

 

Angron the angry child.

Mortarion the depressed child.

Magnus the shceeming child.

Flulgrim the spoilt brat.

 

We all know fathers dont get on with sons in many cases but when theres 20 of them.....

Angron could ease the suffering of others just by being near them. The nails ruined that.

This entirely depends on your point of view ;)

[Klod]

 

 

That isn't exactly conjecture, Malcador told his dying astropath that the Emperor and he actually paved the way for the HH, by pitting the Primarchs against each other and treating them poorly. The thunderwarriors had a sell by date, but the Astartes are functionally immortal, so the way they planned to get rid of them was a civil war, that being the HH. Though some people believe that he was just telling the astropath that to console her, but I don't otherwise he wouldn't say 'would it console you if I told you..." and when she asked would the emperor win, Malcador would have said yes if he was consoling her rather than 'I can't see the future.'

 

In what novel does it say all that?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

That isn't exactly conjecture, Malcador told his dying astropath that the Emperor and he actually paved the way for the HH, by pitting the Primarchs against each other and treating them poorly. The thunderwarriors had a sell by date, but the Astartes are functionally immortal, so the way they planned to get rid of them was a civil war, that being the HH. Though some people believe that he was just telling the astropath that to console her, but I don't otherwise he wouldn't say 'would it console you if I told you..." and when she asked would the emperor win, Malcador would have said yes if he was consoling her rather than 'I can't see the future.'

In what novel does it say all that?

It was a short story. It’s also not true. Malcador was just trying to make the dying listener feel better.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

 

That isn't exactly conjecture, Malcador told his dying astropath that the Emperor and he actually paved the way for the HH, by pitting the Primarchs against each other and treating them poorly. The thunderwarriors had a sell by date, but the Astartes are functionally immortal, so the way they planned to get rid of them was a civil war, that being the HH. Though some people believe that he was just telling the astropath that to console her, but I don't otherwise he wouldn't say 'would it console you if I told you..." and when she asked would the emperor win, Malcador would have said yes if he was consoling her rather than 'I can't see the future.'

 

In what novel does it say all that?

 

First lord of the Imperium audiobook.

 

 

That isn't exactly conjecture, Malcador told his dying astropath that the Emperor and he actually paved the way for the HH, by pitting the Primarchs against each other and treating them poorly. The thunderwarriors had a sell by date, but the Astartes are functionally immortal, so the way they planned to get rid of them was a civil war, that being the HH. Though some people believe that he was just telling the astropath that to console her, but I don't otherwise he wouldn't say 'would it console you if I told you..." and when she asked would the emperor win, Malcador would have said yes if he was consoling her rather than 'I can't see the future.'

In what novel does it say all that?

It was a short story. It’s also not true. Malcador was just trying to make the dying listener feel better.

 

No, that isn't explicitly expressed.  You can argue that it was alluded to him just comforting her, but you cannot say in any way shape or form that it isn't true.  If you listened to it you would realise that isn't the case.  Its up to the listener to decide whether its true or not.

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s not true because of the Emperor’s conversations with Ra in the Master of Mankind. When he’s explaining how he sees the future. Also, I did listen to it.