Wild Speculation on the Emperor of Mankind

[bryanp319]

So something I never really got was, the primarchs have been able to heal from just about anything short of death and the emperor presumably even more so. So other then because it was a super chaos attack from Horus why has he been unable to recover from the death blow. Maintaining the Astronomicon didn't seem to overly tax him before that and I get that there is warp rift in his living room he needs to keep closed  but he's the emperor so what gives right? My guess/ somewhat supported speculation is that it isn't the emperor on the golden throne, it's still Malcador and that is the real reason why the emperor decreed that he would be known as Malcador the Hero, because he made that huge sacrifice and stayed on the throne. So what would the emperor have done if he didn't have to stay on the throne, well he would step into the warp embrace his destiny as a new god of humanity and become a fulll on warp entity and god. 

 

Or something like that anyway.

[redmapa]

He was interred in the Throne because the fight with Horus left him depleted of his energies so while he gathered back his strength he needed to be put in life support and he remains in the Throne because that's his next step in guiding humanity, he says as much at the end of Collected Visions.

 

 

Now all of you go! You know your duties Execute them well. The universe  has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is  not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!

[Dagoth Ur]

The Emperor was hit by the combined might of the chaos gods, a form of assault that none could hope to survive but him. This is the proverbial hero ramming themselves up to the hilt upon their enemy's sword in order to break their neck, even if it may cost their life; a gamble that worked but may have costed too much in the end.

[Claws and Effect]

Maybe he doesn't heal so much as die and revive, much like Vulkan.

 

Maybe he's just waiting for things to stabilize enough for him to do that without the entire Imperium falling apart in the meantime.

[TorvaldTheMild]

All perpetuals can die, actually most have died.  Horus was imbued with power from the Chaos Gods at Molech, the gods wouldn't have given him powers if he couldn't kill the Emperor with them.  The Emperor is extremely powerful but so are the Chaos Gods.

[Xenith]

Maybe the HLoT are keeping the Emperor from regenerating as having him come back to life so soon after he died and was hailed a martyr/god would cause a huge schism within the Imperium and another galaxy spanning war?

[armarnis]

the throne drains him so much, his selfhealing just keeps it up in balance. IF he would be taken out, his perpetual powers would rebirth him but none dares to do it / knows it would be possible. but then again, taking him out would allow terra to be swallowed by the warprift

[Ascanius]

The Emperor was hit by the combined might of the chaos gods, a form of assault that none could hope to survive but him. This is the proverbial hero ramming themselves up to the hilt upon their enemy's sword in order to break their neck, even if it may cost their life; a gamble that worked but may have costed too much in the end.

 

This phrasing reminds me strongly of something from Black Legion:

 

Sigismund sacrificing his defence against Abaddon, and thus his life, for the chance at a killing blow.

 

Also, of course, Khayon giving up his arm in his duel with Daravek's champion earlier in the novel for a similar shot at victory.

[Ascanius]

A few years ago on another forum I read a theory from someone who used to write for GW - I believe it was one of the people who worked on the Realm of Chaos books, or was in the studio shortly afterwards? - that was explicitly his personal take, since we all know there's no official answer to most lore mysteries, but I found really interesting:

 

The Emperor on the Golden Throne really is 99.9999% dead. All that is left, all that the entire machinery and the sacrifice of millions of psykers' lives sustains, is that 0.00001% of his brain matter that still contains his soul, his willpower, his psychic essence.

 

This was coupled with the notion that the Emperor is essentially a "new" form of Warp God, one whose power is unique and uniquely constrained by the fact that it's incarnated a) in the physical realm b) in a human body. This gives him an unparalleled ability to affect both the physical world and the human species* specifically. If the body on the throne finally died, the Emperor would not be annihilated per se, but he would give up all of these advantages and become "just" a fifth god competing with the Ruinous Powers on the same playing field, no more capable of winning the Great Game than any of the Four.

 

So, the Emperor clings to life even in this torturous, ruined shell because it's the only advantage he has, the only chance to pursue his original plan for humanity in even the degraded form it now takes.

 

* It occurs to me only now that this theory also explains the Imperium's inconsistency on the matter of human purity; it's extremely xenophobic and especially intolerant of any mixture of human and xenos genes, but at the same time human genetic engineering is employed en masse and certain kinds of mutated subspecies such as ratlings and ogryns are tolerated, to say nothing of the (at least temporary, if you believe the stories) toleration of the Navigator mutation. Perhaps the dividing line is, or originally was, not "too far from the pure human form" but "too far from the human baseline for the Emperor's special** influence to affect".

 

** Special both in the sense of particular and in the sense of the species . . .

[apologist]

So something I never really got was, the primarchs have been able to heal from just about anything short of death and the emperor presumably even more so. So other then because it was a super chaos attack from Horus why has he been unable to recover from the death blow. Maintaining the Astronomicon didn't seem to overly tax him before that and I get that there is warp rift in his living room he needs to keep closed  but he's the emperor so what gives right? *SNIP*

 

This is one of those lovely core mysteries of the mythos; and the answer is likely deliberately unclear in order to facilitate your own interpretations and roleplaying/wargaming opportunities.

 

There have been hundreds of such theories, ranging from the gothic idea that the Emperor is actually dead and the eldritch powers of the Golden Throne are purely the result of the thousands of psykers that die each day; that the Emperor is kept barely alive by the Golden Throne – but unwillingly; held in a dreadful living death that prevents him re-incarnating/ascending into the New Man; to the theory that the Emperor is alive and guiding humanity from 'behind the scenes' as a Warp God tethered to the Throne.

 

All have narrative merit, and I like the uncertainty. I hope that, along with the Emperor's 'true nature', that this is one mystery that is left unresolved.

[Xenith]

 

* It occurs to me only now that this theory also explains the Imperium's inconsistency on the matter of human purity; it's extremely xenophobic and especially intolerant of any mixture of human and xenos genes, but at the same time human genetic engineering is employed en masse and certain kinds of mutated subspecies such as ratlings and ogryns are tolerated, to say nothing of the (at least temporary, if you believe the stories) toleration of the Navigator mutation. Perhaps the dividing line is, or originally was, not "too far from the pure human form" but "too far from the human baseline for the Emperor's special** influence to affect".

 

** Special both in the sense of particular and in the sense of the species . . .

 

I can't remember where it was written, probably MoM, but many of the Navigator houses sided with Horus because they realised the Emperor's plans and monodominance of pure (albeit psychic?) mankind, and that the with the advent of the webway allowing for non-warp travel, the 'useful mutation' of the third eye would no longer be tolerated and the navigator houses removed from their power. 

 

EDIT: It was in Path of Heaven, there's a lot of cool background to Imperial Politik there. 

[Karhedron]

So something I never really got was, the primarchs have been able to heal from just about anything short of death and the emperor presumably even more so.

The healing powers of the Primarchs (whilst impressive) have remained vague. Ferrus Manus, Alpharius and Kurze were all killed in fairly conventional means, albeit decapitation is a pretty decisive means of ensuring death. Sanguinius is unclear as we don't have a modern HH view of how he died (yet) but if Horus was powerful enough to mortally wound the Emperor, killing Sangy is no big stretch.

 

Primarchs clearly do have limits though. Angron's Nails were slowly killing him, in spite of his healing abilities. Furthermore, the Emperor realised that even he could not remove the Nails without killing Angron on the operating table.

 

Vulkan of course is the odd-man-out as he is a Perpetual and capable of total physical regeneration. He healed after falling from orbit, despite being reduce to a charred skeleton in the process.

 

We don't know what level the Emperor is at. All Perpetuals have their own rules. Some appear to have infinite lifespan until killed. Others can come back from death. Alivia Sureka was even capable of resurrecting in an entirely different place after she was killed by Horus.

 

We don't know what rules apply to the Emperor. One thing is clear though, he doesn't seem to want to be unplugged. He spoke to Guilliman and didn't tell him to turn the Throne off so his decision to stay seems to be a deliberate one. One possibility is he knows or fears that he would not regenerate if that happened. The other is that he could heal but in the time it took him to do so, all hell would quite literally break lose through the shattered portal. Possibly preserving Terra, the Astronomicon and the primary astropathic choir are more important to the Imperium than his ability to get up and walk around again.

[b1soul]

The Emperor speaks with Guilliman, and Guilliman feels the Emperor's raw power may have actually grown but his subtlety is essentially gone. He physically resembles a corpse but his psychic power seems to remain enormous

[Ascanius]

I have the relevant part of Dark Imperium saved:

 

Coldness. That was the defining sensation of his meeting with the Emperor. Infinite, terrible coldness.

 

He had approached the meeting with dread, fearing what he would find. Would his father be dead? Would He be insane? Would they even be able to talk? When he had been admitted to the throne room and approached the Golden Throne, he had done so as he had approached his foster father Konor’s funeral, willing it all to be right, drowning in certain grief. Between the time of the Emperor’s ascension to the throne and Guilliman’s own death, the Emperor had spoken to no one. How could anything have persisted for ten thousand years, he had thought. There was the wizened corpse surrounded by banks of groaning machinery, His sword upon His knee. Sorrow suffused everything. The sacrifice required to keep the Emperor alive sickened the primarch. If He were alive. He appeared dead. Guilliman had expected nothing.

 

But He spoke.

 

With words of light and fire, the Emperor had conferred with His returned primarch, the last of His finest creations.

 

A creation. Not a son.

 

 The living Emperor had been an artful being, as skilled at hiding His thoughts as He was at reading those of others. What remained of Him was powerful beyond comprehension, but it lacked the subtlety He had had whilst He walked among men. Speaking with the Emperor had been like conversing with a star. The Emperor’s words burned him.

 

What hurt most deeply was what went unsaid.

 

The Emperor greeted Guilliman not as a father receives a son, but as a craftsmen who rediscovers a favourite tool that he thought lost. He behaved like a prisoner locked in an iron cage who is passed a rasp.

 

Guilliman had no illusions. He was not the man who brought the rasp; he was the rasp.

 

Without taking the simile too literally, it seems clear that it's not as simple as turning off the Golden Throne. Guilliman might represent a way to progress beyond stasis, but what exactly that means is yet to be determined (and probably won't be).

[Karhedron]

That extract from DI shows both that the Emperor is alive and is aware of what is going on around him. This raises some interesting questions.

 

1. Why is Roboute so important that this is the first time the Emperor has communicated directly in millennia? Obviously as a Primarch, he is far more capable of carrying out the Emperor's orders than mortals but even so, the Emperor could possibly have improved the last 10,000 years with a few conferences. Or is it just that a Primarch is the only one capable of surviving direct mental contact with the Emperor without his brain leaking out of his ears?

 

2. Roboute is the rasp. Does this mean the Big E has some sort of plan to free himself? Or free humanity? This passage implies the Emperor now has a way to break the status-quo but gives no indication of how. Does Roboute know or is he just following orders and hoping for the best?

[Wulf Vengis]

1. Why is Roboute so important that this is the first time the Emperor has communicated directly in millennia? Obviously as a Primarch, he is far more capable of carrying out the Emperor's orders than mortals but even so, the Emperor could possibly have improved the last 10,000 years with a few conferences. Or is it just that a Primarch is the only one capable of surviving direct mental contact with the Emperor without his brain leaking out of his ears?

First answer:

But He spoke.

 

With words of light and fire (...)

 

(...) What remained of Him was powerful beyond comprehension, but it lacked the subtlety He had had whilst He walked among men. Speaking with the Emperor had been like conversing with a star. The Emperor’s words burned him.

You're mocking* assumption of liquefied brains is probably more true than expected. In his current state, reduced to a metaphysical entity of pure psychic energytrapped on the physical plane, he most likely has no way to filter/restrain that energy down to a level a mortal can survive. If he had tried to communicate with anyone else it most likely would have been the equivalent of a Horus shattering blast directly into the soul of whomever he was "speaking" to.

 

*I only say "mocking" because you were making a tongue-in-cheek joke.

 

2. Roboute is the rasp. Does this mean the Big E has some sort of plan to free himself? Or free humanity? This passage implies the Emperor now has a way to break the status-quo but gives no indication of how. Does Roboute know or is he just following orders and hoping for the best?

Second Answer

The Emperor greeted Guilliman not as a father receives a son, but as a craftsmen who rediscovers a favourite tool that he thought lost. He behaved like a prisoner locked in an iron cage who is passed a rasp.

 

Guilliman had no illusions. He was not the man who brought the rasp; he was the rasp.

If he plans to free himself he intends to do it by possessing Roboutes body. I'm not sure about that but i wouldn't put it past him. If he intends to "free" humanity using Guilliman i...don't know how or where he would start. Roboute is most likely just following his orders or will for the time being in an attempt to return a semblance of stability to the imperium.

 

I think the more important part of that bit from dark imperium is most likely this...

 

He behaved like a prisoner locked in an iron cage who is passed a rasp.

10,000 years locked in psychic solitary confinement (self imposed or otherwise) has most likely left the Emperor a madman. He's fervent and overjoyed for a chance at freedom he may not be who or what he once was, he is both less and more. Deranged at his deepest core but wearing a facade of the once great ruler of mankind on the surface.

This could lead to a number of strange events in the future of the setting. Beginning with the Emperor possessing and/or controlling Guillimans body remotely before usurping his own empire.

If this happens i will be referring to the big E as Vigo from then on.

[Red_Shift]

I forget which novel, but in the beast arises series, someone asks why there haven't been attempts to speak to or psychically communicate with the emperor. The answer being that there have been many, but they burned out those that tried.

 

It's been a while since I read emperor of mankind, but if the emperor hadn't foreseen being interred on the golden throne, why did he have it built?

[Vermintide]

I forget which novel, but in the beast arises series, someone asks why there haven't been attempts to speak to or psychically communicate with the emperor. The answer being that there have been many, but they burned out those that tried.

 

It's been a while since I read emperor of mankind, but if the emperor hadn't foreseen being interred on the golden throne, why did he have it built?

 

Didn't he just, like, find it one day, under a mountain? Like "Oh sweet. This will totally come in handy if I am ever mortally wounded and have to preserve my psychic will as a beacon for extrasolar navigation."

[b1soul]

I believe Magnus was designated as the original throne-sitter

[Wulf Vengis]

That is what Magnus was lead to believe by his own "visions" and communications with other nefarious contacts.

 

I think...I'm not recalling exactly where it was.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

I believe Magnus was designated as the original throne-sitter

This is my belief as well. I am aware that many people do not like the interpretation the Emperor was willing to use Magnus in this way but from my reading the Emperor had no qualms about using his creations to his end goal. I am of the view that once the Emperor had his "perfect galaxy" the Primarchs and their children would have been destroyed like the Thunder Warriors before them, their purpose complete. We know that he ordered the destruction of the Thunder Warriors, we know that he ordered the destruction of two Primarchs and their Legions. Many people seem to forget that The Emperor is not Human, not human as we understand humanity at least. How much different does his mind work than ours, he is thousands of years old, an eccentric genius (is there any other kind when you reach his level of genius?), and possesses powers we do not have. He is as alien to the Primarchs as the Primarchs are to the Astartes and the Astartes are to us. How he sees things, how he rationalises are not thing that we can probably understand if he were real.

 

Yes the information provided to Magnus is dubious as it was provided to him through warp entities but there is always the angle that they did not lie to Magnus about it. After all sometime the truth is convenient and better than a lie. At this point it comes down to your interpretation and how you wish to look at it. Another consideration is, what was the throne going to be like when Magnus would have been ordered to sit in it (if that was what the Emperor had planned)? Was it meant to be permanent or temporary? Was the Emperor done "calibrating" it? Would it have been as bad for Magnus as it was for the Emperor because in that reality Magnus never exposed Terra to the warp? We have lots of questions that, in my opinion should never be answered as it allows for so much interesting speculation and interpretation.

[redmapa]

I forget which novel, but in the beast arises series, someone asks why there haven't been attempts to speak to or psychically communicate with the emperor. The answer being that there have been many, but they burned out those that tried.

 

It's been a while since I read emperor of mankind, but if the emperor hadn't foreseen being interred on the golden throne, why did he have it built?

 

I believe the Throne had other purposes and Im not sure what the current canon of the Throne is but before it was never really known if it was built by Him or simply found. After the battle with Horus the Emperor tells Dorn that his wounds are less than what he expected but are still grievous enough that he needs life support so I think at some point in the Siege of Terra the Emperor did foresee what he needed to do in the future and thats why he tells Malcador to recruit the founders of the Inquisition and the Grey Knights and why he was ready to just be fused to the Throne forever even after he had regained his psychic strength.

 

Personally I always liked that about the Emperor, yes he's a sociopath, a monstrous tyrant and willing to use anyone for his goals, even the creatures he calls sons are expendable but so is he, he endures millenia of existential horror because there is only one goal and that is Humanity above all, he is grim salvation.

[Ishagu]

In Dark Imperium it does say that Guilliman is still feeling echoes and aftershocks or his meeting with the Emperor.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Primarch was the first person in thousands of years who could "hear" the Emperor without being killed by his sheer power.

 

What's more interesting is that the Emperor has become very active by the events of the Plague War. He actively calms the warp for Guilliman's fleets and involves himself in battles with Daemons, much to the horror of the Neverborn who encounter him.

 

Potentially the Emperor could become even more involved as the story progresses. Whilst keeping him distant does carry an element of mistique and mystery, it would be too fascinating to not want to hear what he has to say!

[Wulf Vengis]

"ATTENTION IMPERIAL CITIZENS!"

(A multitude of popping sounds echo across the imperium.)

"OH, [CUSS]! NEVERMIND! I'LL JUST CALL ROBOUTE!"

[Red_Shift]

IIRC doesn't Alicia Dominica speak to the Emperor? I can't remember anyone else who has between his internment and Guilliman. Presumably it's not just a power thing though, otherwise he would have been communicating with the primarchs up until their individual disappearances. Mortally wounded, he tells Dorn to plug him in, thousands of years later speaks to Alicia, then skips forward a while to speak to Guilliman.