Wild Speculation on the Emperor of Mankind

[Ishagu]

We don't know if he spoke to her or not. Her meeting with the Emperor is even more vague than Guilliman's.

 

Perhaps she just saw him and knew that Vandire was telling porkies lol

[Marshal Rohr]

IIRC doesn't Alicia Dominica speak to the Emperor? I can't remember anyone else who has between his internment and Guilliman. Presumably it's not just a power thing though, otherwise he would have been communicating with the primarchs up until their individual disappearances. Mortally wounded, he tells Dorn to plug him in, thousands of years later speaks to Alicia, then skips forward a while to speak to Guilliman.

The Legend is that the Emperor spoke to either her or all of the original founders (can’t remember specifically, just that they were taken to him).

[TorvaldTheMild]

A few years ago on another forum I read a theory from someone who used to write for GW - I believe it was one of the people who worked on the Realm of Chaos books, or was in the studio shortly afterwards? - that was explicitly his personal take, since we all know there's no official answer to most lore mysteries, but I found really interesting:

 

The Emperor on the Golden Throne really is 99.9999% dead. All that is left, all that the entire machinery and the sacrifice of millions of psykers' lives sustains, is that 0.00001% of his brain matter that still contains his soul, his willpower, his psychic essence.

 

This was coupled with the notion that the Emperor is essentially a "new" form of Warp God, one whose power is unique and uniquely constrained by the fact that it's incarnated a) in the physical realm in a human body. This gives him an unparalleled ability to affect both the physical world and the human species* specifically. If the body on the throne finally died, the Emperor would not be annihilated per se, but he would give up all of these advantages and become "just" a fifth god competing with the Ruinous Powers on the same playing field, no more capable of winning the Great Game than any of the Four.

 

So, the Emperor clings to life even in this torturous, ruined shell because it's the only advantage he has, the only chance to pursue his original plan for humanity in even the degraded form it now takes.

 

* It occurs to me only now that this theory also explains the Imperium's inconsistency on the matter of human purity; it's extremely xenophobic and especially intolerant of any mixture of human and xenos genes, but at the same time human genetic engineering is employed en masse and certain kinds of mutated subspecies such as ratlings and ogryns are tolerated, to say nothing of the (at least temporary, if you believe the stories) toleration of the Navigator mutation. Perhaps the dividing line is, or originally was, not "too far from the pure human form" but "too far from the human baseline for the Emperor's special** influence to affect".

 

** Special both in the sense of particular and in the sense of the species . . .

What he thinks isn't fact.   I know you didn't suggest as much but what the writers think personally is as irrelevant as what any of us think, if its not in the lore its not lore.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

So something I never really got was, the primarchs have been able to heal from just about anything short of death and the emperor presumably even more so.

The healing powers of the Primarchs (whilst impressive) have remained vague. Ferrus Manus, Alpharius and Kurze were all killed in fairly conventional means, albeit decapitation is a pretty decisive means of ensuring death. Sanguinius is unclear as we don't have a modern HH view of how he died (yet) but if Horus was powerful enough to mortally wound the Emperor, killing Sangy is no big stretch.

 

Primarchs clearly do have limits though. Angron's Nails were slowly killing him, in spite of his healing abilities. Furthermore, the Emperor realised that even he could not remove the Nails without killing Angron on the operating table.

 

Vulkan of course is the odd-man-out as he is a Perpetual and capable of total physical regeneration. He healed after falling from orbit, despite being reduce to a charred skeleton in the process.

 

We don't know what level the Emperor is at. All Perpetuals have their own rules. Some appear to have infinite lifespan until killed. Others can come back from death. Alivia Sureka was even capable of resurrecting in an entirely different place after she was killed by Horus.

 

We don't know what rules apply to the Emperor. One thing is clear though, he doesn't seem to want to be unplugged. He spoke to Guilliman and didn't tell him to turn the Throne off so his decision to stay seems to be a deliberate one. One possibility is he knows or fears that he would not regenerate if that happened. The other is that he could heal but in the time it took him to do so, all hell would quite literally break lose through the shattered portal. Possibly preserving Terra, the Astronomicon and the primary astropathic choir are more important to the Imperium than his ability to get up and walk around again.

 

Sureka wasn't resurrected in a different place after Horus killed her, she awoke at the obsidian gate where Horus clawed her.  I agree with you though that the Emps definitely wants to stay on the throne.

[Jackalwolf]

I have to say that as far as crazy theories go this one really entices me. The only facts we know is that the Emperor is not present in the material realm and that there's a huge rift behind the golden throne only he can contain.

 

The idea of Malcador staying entombed is fascinating because it wouldn't negate any canon other than the only verified contact with the Emperor post heresy through Guilliman where he himself says he couldn't recognise his father.

 

The Emperor in MoM needs to leave the throne and physically enter the rift to help the final push and that's precisely where the unspoken sanction (sacrificing 1000 psykers to keep the golden throne and the astronomicon on) is applied.

 

We know the throne still consumes thousands of psykers daily. That was not needed when the Emperor was in the throne. It could be because he was weakened in his fight with the first murder and Horus or it could be exactly your theory.

 

What a twist would that be...

[Lord Raven 19]

Could the psychic awakening involve the continuation of this plot, maybe the emperor stirs on the throne?

[TorvaldTheMild]

Could the psychic awakening involve the continuation of this plot, maybe the emperor stirs on the throne?

Well the Emperor was actually conscious to some degree when he was first interred on the Throne, he was able to talk etc.  not very coherently though.  However that is 2nd edition lore.

 

 

[karden00]

 

 

 

So something I never really got was, the primarchs have been able to heal from just about anything short of death and the emperor presumably even more so.

The healing powers of the Primarchs (whilst impressive) have remained vague. Ferrus Manus, Alpharius and Kurze were all killed in fairly conventional means, albeit decapitation is a pretty decisive means of ensuring death. Sanguinius is unclear as we don't have a modern HH view of how he died (yet) but if Horus was powerful enough to mortally wound the Emperor, killing Sangy is no big stretch.

 

Primarchs clearly do have limits though. Angron's Nails were slowly killing him, in spite of his healing abilities. Furthermore, the Emperor realised that even he could not remove the Nails without killing Angron on the operating table.

 

Vulkan of course is the odd-man-out as he is a Perpetual and capable of total physical regeneration. He healed after falling from orbit, despite being reduce to a charred skeleton in the process.

 

We don't know what level the Emperor is at. All Perpetuals have their own rules. Some appear to have infinite lifespan until killed. Others can come back from death. Alivia Sureka was even capable of resurrecting in an entirely different place after she was killed by Horus.

 

We don't know what rules apply to the Emperor. One thing is clear though, he doesn't seem to want to be unplugged. He spoke to Guilliman and didn't tell him to turn the Throne off so his decision to stay seems to be a deliberate one. One possibility is he knows or fears that he would not regenerate if that happened. The other is that he could heal but in the time it took him to do so, all hell would quite literally break lose through the shattered portal. Possibly preserving Terra, the Astronomicon and the primary astropathic choir are more important to the Imperium than his ability to get up and walk around again.

Sureka wasn't resurrected in a different place after Horus killed her, she awoke at the obsidian gate where Horus clawed her. I agree with you though that the Emps definitely wants to stay on the throne.

Can someone quote this? I seem to remember being puzzled as well about how she seemed to be back with the people she knew after being talon’d.

[Karhedron]

 

 

 

So something I never really got was, the primarchs have been able to heal from just about anything short of death and the emperor presumably even more so.

We don't know what level the Emperor is at. All Perpetuals have their own rules. Some appear to have infinite lifespan until killed. Others can come back from death. Alivia Sureka was even capable of resurrecting in an entirely different place after she was killed by Horus.

 

Sureka wasn't resurrected in a different place after Horus killed her, she awoke at the obsidian gate where Horus clawed her. I agree with you though that the Emps definitely wants to stay on the throne.

 

Can someone quote this? I seem to remember being puzzled as well about how she seemed to be back with the people she knew after being talon’d.

 

She doesn't awaken at then Obsidian Gate, she reappears on refugee ship that her family took to escape Molech while she stayed behind to try and seal the Gate. Her step-daughter is reading the book the Sureka gave her when she just turns up and reminded her that she promised she would see them again.

[Karhedron]

It's been a while since I read emperor of mankind, but if the emperor hadn't foreseen being interred on the golden throne, why did he have it built?

The primary purpose of the Golden Throne is a Webway portal. It was capable of being opened and closed meaning that the occupant would only need to sit on it while it was in use. At other times it could be closed. Magnus damaged it when he tried to warn the Emperor about the Horus Heresy. This fused it "open" and also created a breach from the warp into the Webway beyond meaning that the section was now flooded by Daemons. The Emperor was forced to sit on the throne permanently for most of the Heresy holding the gate shut while the Custodes attempted to stop the Daemons coming through the breach. By the end of MoM, the battle in the Webway is lost and the Imperial forces withdraw back to the Throneroom and the Emperor is left holding the gate closed, just to prevent Terra being swamped by Daemons.

 

At the end of the Siege of Terra, Malcador briefly sat on the throne, allowing the Emperor to confront Horus. He was the only other psyker besides the Emperor and Magnus strong enough to hold the gate although only for a few hours and the effort cost him his life. After the Emperor was brought back to Terra by Dorn, he knew he would have to sit on the Golden Throne for good to hold the gate closed. He also knew he was dying so he ordered the Throne be modified into a life support device so that he could keep it closed indefinitely.

 

Interestingly, the gate does not resemble an Eldar Webway portal and it does not connect directly to the main Webway. Instead, the Admech constructed a short artificial spur that connected to the Webway proper near the abandoned Eldar city of Calistar. The Emperor himself powers this section and keeps it daemon-tight since it lacks the warp-insulating properties of Old One and Eldar portions of the Webway. The Emperor says that he did not create the Golden Throne, he just found it. If it is not Eldar in origin, where did it come from? Whilst it might be an original Old One gate, that does not explain why it does not properly connect to the Webway. My personal theory is that it is a Necron Dolmen Gate. The Necrons used these to breach the Webway by technological means during the War in Heaven and they eventually spelled the doom of the Old Ones.

[Jerethdatiger]

Have we considered that to the emperor he hasn't been quiet for thousands of years. If most his psyche is in the warp and the warp is known for time manipulation could. Result in the emperor being in all times and acting when needed

[Wulf Vengis]

Have we considered that to the emperor he hasn't been quiet for thousands of years. If most his psyche is in the warp and the warp is known for time manipulation could. Result in the emperor being in all times and acting when needed

You mean like Slaanesh? Always is, always was, always will be. Even before it's own birth.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

 

It's been a while since I read emperor of mankind, but if the emperor hadn't foreseen being interred on the golden throne, why did he have it built?

The primary purpose of the Golden Throne is a Webway portal. It was capable of being opened and closed meaning that the occupant would only need to sit on it while it was in use. At other times it could be closed. Magnus damaged it when he tried to warn the Emperor about the Horus Heresy. This fused it "open" and also created a breach from the warp into the Webway beyond meaning that the section was now flooded by Daemons. The Emperor was forced to sit on the throne permanently for most of the Heresy holding the gate shut while the Custodes attempted to stop the Daemons coming through the breach. By the end of MoM, the battle in the Webway is lost and the Imperial forces withdraw back to the Throneroom and the Emperor is left holding the gate closed, just to prevent Terra being swamped by Daemons.

 

At the end of the Siege of Terra, Malcador briefly sat on the throne, allowing the Emperor to confront Horus. He was the only other psyker besides the Emperor and Magnus strong enough to hold the gate although only for a few hours and the effort cost him his life. After the Emperor was brought back to Terra by Dorn, he knew he would have to sit on the Golden Throne for good to hold the gate closed. He also knew he was dying so he ordered the Throne be modified into a life support device so that he could keep it closed indefinitely.

 

Interestingly, the gate does not resemble an Eldar Webway portal and it does not connect directly to the main Webway. Instead, the Admech constructed a short artificial spur that connected to the Webway proper near the abandoned Eldar city of Calistar. The Emperor himself powers this section and keeps it daemon-tight since it lacks the warp-insulating properties of Old One and Eldar portions of the Webway. The Emperor says that he did not create the Golden Throne, he just found it. If it is not Eldar in origin, where did it come from? Whilst it might be an original Old One gate, that does not explain why it does not properly connect to the Webway. My personal theory is that it is a Necron Dolmen Gate. The Necrons used these to breach the Webway by technological means during the War in Heaven and they eventually spelled the doom of the Old Ones.

 

I would have to dig around and find the mention, it is a very small entry, but isn't there a little blurb or text in one of the Codex mentioning that some Admech were making contact with the Dark Eldar to try and make a deal to repair the throne? I'll have to look for it when I have more time.

[InquisitorVonTansburg]

 

 

 

It's been a while since I read emperor of mankind, but if the emperor hadn't foreseen being interred on the golden throne, why did he have it built?

The primary purpose of the Golden Throne is a Webway portal. It was capable of being opened and closed meaning that the occupant would only need to sit on it while it was in use. At other times it could be closed. Magnus damaged it when he tried to warn the Emperor about the Horus Heresy. This fused it "open" and also created a breach from the warp into the Webway beyond meaning that the section was now flooded by Daemons. The Emperor was forced to sit on the throne permanently for most of the Heresy holding the gate shut while the Custodes attempted to stop the Daemons coming through the breach. By the end of MoM, the battle in the Webway is lost and the Imperial forces withdraw back to the Throneroom and the Emperor is left holding the gate closed, just to prevent Terra being swamped by Daemons.

 

At the end of the Siege of Terra, Malcador briefly sat on the throne, allowing the Emperor to confront Horus. He was the only other psyker besides the Emperor and Magnus strong enough to hold the gate although only for a few hours and the effort cost him his life. After the Emperor was brought back to Terra by Dorn, he knew he would have to sit on the Golden Throne for good to hold the gate closed. He also knew he was dying so he ordered the Throne be modified into a life support device so that he could keep it closed indefinitely.

 

Interestingly, the gate does not resemble an Eldar Webway portal and it does not connect directly to the main Webway. Instead, the Admech constructed a short artificial spur that connected to the Webway proper near the abandoned Eldar city of Calistar. The Emperor himself powers this section and keeps it daemon-tight since it lacks the warp-insulating properties of Old One and Eldar portions of the Webway. The Emperor says that he did not create the Golden Throne, he just found it. If it is not Eldar in origin, where did it come from? Whilst it might be an original Old One gate, that does not explain why it does not properly connect to the Webway. My personal theory is that it is a Necron Dolmen Gate. The Necrons used these to breach the Webway by technological means during the War in Heaven and they eventually spelled the doom of the Old Ones.

I would have to dig around and find the mention, it is a very small entry, but isn't there a little blurb or text in one of the Codex mentioning that some Admech were making contact with the Dark Eldar to try and make a deal to repair the throne? I'll have to look for it when I have more time.

Isn’t that what the book Vaults of Terra: The Carrion Throne by Chris Wraight is about?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

It's been a while since I read emperor of mankind, but if the emperor hadn't foreseen being interred on the golden throne, why did he have it built?

The primary purpose of the Golden Throne is a Webway portal. It was capable of being opened and closed meaning that the occupant would only need to sit on it while it was in use. At other times it could be closed. Magnus damaged it when he tried to warn the Emperor about the Horus Heresy. This fused it "open" and also created a breach from the warp into the Webway beyond meaning that the section was now flooded by Daemons. The Emperor was forced to sit on the throne permanently for most of the Heresy holding the gate shut while the Custodes attempted to stop the Daemons coming through the breach. By the end of MoM, the battle in the Webway is lost and the Imperial forces withdraw back to the Throneroom and the Emperor is left holding the gate closed, just to prevent Terra being swamped by Daemons.

 

At the end of the Siege of Terra, Malcador briefly sat on the throne, allowing the Emperor to confront Horus. He was the only other psyker besides the Emperor and Magnus strong enough to hold the gate although only for a few hours and the effort cost him his life. After the Emperor was brought back to Terra by Dorn, he knew he would have to sit on the Golden Throne for good to hold the gate closed. He also knew he was dying so he ordered the Throne be modified into a life support device so that he could keep it closed indefinitely.

 

Interestingly, the gate does not resemble an Eldar Webway portal and it does not connect directly to the main Webway. Instead, the Admech constructed a short artificial spur that connected to the Webway proper near the abandoned Eldar city of Calistar. The Emperor himself powers this section and keeps it daemon-tight since it lacks the warp-insulating properties of Old One and Eldar portions of the Webway. The Emperor says that he did not create the Golden Throne, he just found it. If it is not Eldar in origin, where did it come from? Whilst it might be an original Old One gate, that does not explain why it does not properly connect to the Webway. My personal theory is that it is a Necron Dolmen Gate. The Necrons used these to breach the Webway by technological means during the War in Heaven and they eventually spelled the doom of the Old Ones.

I would have to dig around and find the mention, it is a very small entry, but isn't there a little blurb or text in one of the Codex mentioning that some Admech were making contact with the Dark Eldar to try and make a deal to repair the throne? I'll have to look for it when I have more time.

Isn’t that what the book Vaults of Terra: The Carrion Throne by Chris Wraight is about?

 

 

Yep, and they are quite good.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

Haven't read that one, it is in my book back log... I guess I should shift to the top.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

 

 

So something I never really got was, the primarchs have been able to heal from just about anything short of death and the emperor presumably even more so.

We don't know what level the Emperor is at. All Perpetuals have their own rules. Some appear to have infinite lifespan until killed. Others can come back from death. Alivia Sureka was even capable of resurrecting in an entirely different place after she was killed by Horus.

 

Sureka wasn't resurrected in a different place after Horus killed her, she awoke at the obsidian gate where Horus clawed her. I agree with you though that the Emps definitely wants to stay on the throne.

 

Can someone quote this? I seem to remember being puzzled as well about how she seemed to be back with the people she knew after being talon’d.

 

She doesn't awaken at then Obsidian Gate, she reappears on refugee ship that her family took to escape Molech while she stayed behind to try and seal the Gate. Her step-daughter is reading the book the Sureka gave her when she just turns up and reminded her that she promised she would see them again.

 

No the story starts off again there, she doesn't teleport onto Molechs enlightenment.

[Lucifer216]

The 40k setting's metaphysics create an intriguing possibility. As Chaos Gods are nothing more than spiralling vortices of emotion that have reached critical mass and therefore possess the sentience needed to try and inspire the same emotions that sustain them in the physical realm, it's entirely possible that the emotions around worship of the Emperor are coalescing into a being that may end up believing that it is the Emperor of Mankind, but has no direct link to the being that sits on the Golden Throne. Such an entity may well be have around during the Horus Heresy (though much weaker) and responsible for the acts of faith that Euphrati Keeler was able to manifest.  

[Wulf Vengis]

Good call Slasher, i forgot about that one. Great flick.

[Brother Captain Ed]

IIRC doesn't Alicia Dominica speak to the Emperor? I can't remember anyone else who has between his internment and Guilliman. Presumably it's not just a power thing though, otherwise he would have been communicating with the primarchs up until their individual disappearances. Mortally wounded, he tells Dorn to plug him in, thousands of years later speaks to Alicia, then skips forward a while to speak to Guilliman.

Because the captain-general of the Custodians explicitly takes her there, I always assumed that it was the Custodes telling her that the Emperor is disappointed while having the conversation in His Presence. He may even have manifested some sign to underline it. But I always just subconsciously assumed it wasn't the Emperor Himself that spoke to Alicia Dominica because for years we are told the Emperor didn't speak to anybody.

 

Given that Guilliman has now conversed with him, I'd say it's reasonable to assume that most beings short of a Primarch would not survive the experience.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

IIRC doesn't Alicia Dominica speak to the Emperor? I can't remember anyone else who has between his internment and Guilliman. Presumably it's not just a power thing though, otherwise he would have been communicating with the primarchs up until their individual disappearances. Mortally wounded, he tells Dorn to plug him in, thousands of years later speaks to Alicia, then skips forward a while to speak to Guilliman.

Because the captain-general of the Custodians explicitly takes her there, I always assumed that it was the Custodes telling her that the Emperor is disappointed while having the conversation in His Presence. He may even have manifested some sign to underline it. But I always just subconsciously assumed it wasn't the Emperor Himself that spoke to Alicia Dominica because for years we are told the Emperor didn't speak to anybody.

 

Given that Guilliman has now conversed with him, I'd say it's reasonable to assume that most beings short of a Primarch would not survive the experience.

 

Also the lore states that no one knows what happened when Dominica went into the golden throne chambers.

[brother mouzone]

they should have put the emp in a dreadnought, a big old golden one.

[TorvaldTheMild]

they should have put the emp in a dreadnought, a big old golden one.

Imagine the ridiculousness of it lol

[mughi3]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the star child theory. the one that has been around in GW lore for decades-if the emperor dies will he be reborn in the same manner as he was created by the shamans sacrifice to create the "new man"?

 

Or has the vast throngs of worshipers of the imperium turned him into the 5th chaos god-the god of anti-chaos? once linked in old lore to the god malal.

[Slasher956]

The star child theory has been brought up... 

 

however I dont think the star child theory is canon any more... even Ian watson's books Inquisition war have been squatted (not too ironically as one of the characters is a squat!)

 

ps I think the star child thing was in a post that was removed by a mod as it was off topic (I presume)... possibly commenting on one by me about the film dogma... where they were talking about mortals not being able to withstand the presence of god talking to them.....