Buffing Sanguinary Guard Questions

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

Sorry if this has been covered in a prior post, but I have been tossing around an idea in my head that I have yet to put to the tabletop. As a refernce, I primarily play against Space Wolves and various Heretic Astartes. So, I feel like I get a good punch out of my Sanguinary Guard, but want to get them to a level where they can 1st round wipe out the Wolf Guard Terminators (TH/SS) that is normally the biggest threat on the board.

 

I run a 10 man unit of SG, all swords and boltguns, with a bare bones Sanguinary Priest (chainswords/jumppack). I have also been using a Captain as my warlord, running with this blob, with Angel's Wing to pave the way for the 3D6 charge for the Guard. Nothing new, pretty standard.

 

I feel like it would be more efficient to change out my Captain for a Lieutenant, to max the buffs given to the SG unti. Currently, the Captain's reroll 1s is null due to Heirs. If I go to a Lieutenant, I would lose the 4++ that the Captain has, but would gain reroll 1s to wound. Which, on the charge against MEQs, gives that big unit of Guard full rerolls to hit and basically full rerolls to wound (+1 S plus RT gives 2+ to wound).

 

I hate the idea of taking my favorite model and character down a notch, but on the tabletop it seems like it makes sense. Looking for input from anyone that wants to throw it out there, and I hope to give it a whirl on the tabletop soon.

 

And no, I won't be taking a Smash Captain.

[SnorriSnorrison]

A pretty common thing is to take a Sanguinary Ancient, make him your Warlord and give him the relic Standard of Sacrifice.

 

Now your SG re-roll hits, wound MEQ on 2’s and re-roll 1’s while rocking a 2+/5+++ save with the ability to get back up. Add a Librarian with Unleash Rage/Shield and go to town. Some people will call it cheese.

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

A pretty common thing is to take a Sanguinary Ancient, make him your Warlord and give him the relic Standard of Sacrifice.

 

Now your SG re-roll hits, wound MEQ on 2’s and re-roll 1’s while rocking a 2+/5+++ save with the ability to get back up. Add a Librarian with Unleash Rage/Shield and go to town. Some people will call it cheese.

 

Thanks for the input Snorri. I was hoping to use my existing model, as he is my favorite, but this is definitely something I will have to at a look at.

[Majkhel]

While I commend glorious charges, I feel that it may not be very efficient to throw one of your best melee units against your opponent's dedicated melee unit. Especially when this unit has D3 damage weapons. "Shoot the stabby, stab the shooty".

I'd say that those terminators should first be treated with fire. Massed Heavy bolter/Assault canon fire (or at least bolt rifle fire). -1 AP leaves them with 3+ save, so their shields are kinda wasted. S5 allows for easier wounding. Overcharged plasma (hellblasters, inceptors) is even better in this, that every failed save is a dead terminator. Remember that said plasma benefits greatly from the nearby presence of Standard of Sacrifice, as it allows any killed shooter to potentially shoot again.

This would then allow your SG to charge an opponent much reduced in strength and hop to other, squishier targets.

Do you have access to Helverins perhaps?

[Aothaine]

Some people will call it cheese.

 

Because it is cheese. Lol! But! I don't mind. You're going to be investing, what? like 900 points into that one squad?, so go ahead. Everything has a weakness. massed Anti-infantry fire will ruin this death star. Also keep in mind that a lot of the units that can mass fire anti-infantry are significantly cheaper than this blob. Not that it is a bad idea. Just be ready when you're opponent's bolter aggressors unleash hell. Not many units can survive a full round of bolter Aggressor fire.

[SnorriSnorrison]

While I commend glorious charges, I feel that it may not be very efficient to throw one of your best melee units against your opponent's dedicated melee unit. Especially when this unit has D3 damage weapons. "Shoot the stabby, stab the shooty".

I'd say that those terminators should first be treated with fire. Massed Heavy bolter/Assault canon fire (or at least bolt rifle fire). -1 AP leaves them with 3+ save, so their shields are kinda wasted. S5 allows for easier wounding. Overcharged plasma (hellblasters, inceptors) is even better in this, that every failed save is a dead terminator. Remember that said plasma benefits greatly from the nearby presence of Standard of Sacrifice, as it allows any killed shooter to potentially shoot again.

This would then allow your SG to charge an opponent much reduced in strength and hop to other, squishier targets.

Do you have access to Helverins perhaps?

Remember though that the Sang Ancient Banners aren’t the ones that grant the shoot/fight ability upon death, they allow re-rolls of 1’s in the fight phase and grant +1 morale in 6”. So for SG much better because they can beat up stuff good.

 

@Aothaine

Almost! A squad of 10 SG, a JP Libby, a Sang Priest and a Sanguinary Ancient is like 650 points. But yeah, SG are surprisingly fragile against AP-3/-4 and D2 weapons.You want Shield of Sanguinius with that?

[BluejayJunior]

Another option, depending on whether they start on or off the board, is to try to avoid them. Terminators are slow and don't have a lot of transport options. If they're not holding an important position, it may be possible to keep your distance and limit the effect they can actually have on the battle by not engaging them directly. 

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

Another option, depending on whether they start on or off the board, is to try to avoid them. Terminators are slow and don't have a lot of transport options. If they're not holding an important position, it may be possible to keep your distance and limit the effect they can actually have on the battle by not engaging them directly. 

They start either in reserve to Deep Strike, or in a Caestus Assault Ram. It is sadly not a real option to keep them out of position. Even the one time I used Forlorn Fury to get a 1st turn charge against the Ram with my DC, the damn terminators still slogged across the board just absorbing everything I threw at them until they reached my tiny ground footprint. 

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

While I commend glorious charges, I feel that it may not be very efficient to throw one of your best melee units against your opponent's dedicated melee unit. Especially when this unit has D3 damage weapons. "Shoot the stabby, stab the shooty".

I'd say that those terminators should first be treated with fire. Massed Heavy bolter/Assault canon fire (or at least bolt rifle fire). -1 AP leaves them with 3+ save, so their shields are kinda wasted. S5 allows for easier wounding. Overcharged plasma (hellblasters, inceptors) is even better in this, that every failed save is a dead terminator. Remember that said plasma benefits greatly from the nearby presence of Standard of Sacrifice, as it allows any killed shooter to potentially shoot again.

This would then allow your SG to charge an opponent much reduced in strength and hop to other, squishier targets.

Do you have access to Helverins perhaps?

 

Sadly, we have a strict no soup rule in our group. So it's a pure BA list for me, and it is a completely assault heavy force. We usually play at 1500 points, and without turning this into a list critique, here is what I run.

 

Jump Chaplain

Jump Sang Priest

Jump Captain (moving to Lieutenant most likely)

Libby Dread

 

3x 5 man Tact squads

 

10 Sanguinary Guard

10 Vanguard Vets (power sword / storm shield)

12 Death Company w/ 3 TH (4 if I change Captain out for Lieutenant)

[Gingerninja]

Already a lot of good ideas. My only take is that you got to many close combat units with only 9 CP. You will just have a hard time the get the max out of each unit. I would try to use something else instead of the VV.

 

Maybe a dreadnought in a drop pod :P

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

Already a lot of good ideas. My only take is that you got to many close combat units with only 9 CP. You will just have a hard time the get the max out of each unit. I would try to use something else instead of the VV.

 

Maybe a dreadnought in a drop pod

 

The only Dread I currently own is the Libby Dread, and it is part of the list. What would you suggest? The 8 inch range on the Frag Cannon makes it a useless IMO, especially if the strategy with it is to come out of a pod. Same reason I stay away from flame weapons. The squad of VV is only 230 points, which makes it hard to find something that hits as hard for the points.

 

Honestly, CP hasn't been an issue yet. VV and DC start on the table. VV are completely hidden, I use wings on them to get them into a turn 1 charge position. DC start as far forward as possible based on deployment. If I win the roll off, I use Forlorn to get them in position. If I don't, I use Forlorn to move them into a safer spot. It's a gamble, but it has worked so far. That still gives me 7 CP, of which I only need 2 for DOA. The rest basically get used for rerolls.

[Morticon]

 

While I commend glorious charges, I feel that it may not be very efficient to throw one of your best melee units against your opponent's dedicated melee unit. Especially when this unit has D3 damage weapons. "Shoot the stabby, stab the shooty".

I'd say that those terminators should first be treated with fire. Massed Heavy bolter/Assault canon fire (or at least bolt rifle fire). -1 AP leaves them with 3+ save, so their shields are kinda wasted. S5 allows for easier wounding. Overcharged plasma (hellblasters, inceptors) is even better in this, that every failed save is a dead terminator. Remember that said plasma benefits greatly from the nearby presence of Standard of Sacrifice, as it allows any killed shooter to potentially shoot again.

This would then allow your SG to charge an opponent much reduced in strength and hop to other, squishier targets.

Do you have access to Helverins perhaps?

 

Sadly, we have a strict no soup rule in our group. So it's a pure BA list for me, and it is a completely assault heavy force. We usually play at 1500 points, and without turning this into a list critique, here is what I run.

 

Jump Chaplain

Jump Sang Priest

Jump Captain (moving to Lieutenant most likely)

Libby Dread

 

3x 5 man Tact squads

 

10 Sanguinary Guard

10 Vanguard Vets (power sword / storm shield)

12 Death Company w/ 3 TH (4 if I change Captain out for Lieutenant)

 

This is such a deliciously angry list. 

 

Consider dropping 2 SG and 2 DC, swapping Jump Cap for Astorath and getting a SG Ancient with the rest of the points. Also, grab yourself at least 5 fists- that saves another 15 points in the list. 

 

 

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

 

 

While I commend glorious charges, I feel that it may not be very efficient to throw one of your best melee units against your opponent's dedicated melee unit. Especially when this unit has D3 damage weapons. "Shoot the stabby, stab the shooty".

I'd say that those terminators should first be treated with fire. Massed Heavy bolter/Assault canon fire (or at least bolt rifle fire). -1 AP leaves them with 3+ save, so their shields are kinda wasted. S5 allows for easier wounding. Overcharged plasma (hellblasters, inceptors) is even better in this, that every failed save is a dead terminator. Remember that said plasma benefits greatly from the nearby presence of Standard of Sacrifice, as it allows any killed shooter to potentially shoot again.

This would then allow your SG to charge an opponent much reduced in strength and hop to other, squishier targets.

Do you have access to Helverins perhaps?

 

Sadly, we have a strict no soup rule in our group. So it's a pure BA list for me, and it is a completely assault heavy force. We usually play at 1500 points, and without turning this into a list critique, here is what I run.

 

Jump Chaplain

Jump Sang Priest

Jump Captain (moving to Lieutenant most likely)

Libby Dread

 

3x 5 man Tact squads

 

10 Sanguinary Guard

10 Vanguard Vets (power sword / storm shield)

12 Death Company w/ 3 TH (4 if I change Captain out for Lieutenant)

 

This is such a deliciously angry list. 

 

Consider dropping 2 SG and 2 DC, swapping Jump Cap for Astorath and getting a SG Ancient with the rest of the points. Also, grab yourself at least 5 fists- that saves another 15 points in the list. 

 

 

 

Deliciously angry is officially the best way I have ever heard by approach to BA described. Thank you very much for that.

 

I will look at the SG Ancient for sure, love that route for getting the reroll 1s to hit. My group has a strict no named characters rule, mainly due to the number of guys playing Heretic Astartes (BL and DG). The rest of us got tired of building lists to handle Mortarion and Abaddon. Although it is fun to have a 10 man squad of BA Assault Termies with TH/SS slice through Abaddon and his Term retinue like a hot knife through butter.

[Karhedron]

But yeah, SG are surprisingly fragile against AP-3/-4 and D2 weapons.You want Shield of Sanguinius with that?

Shield is only a 5++ unfortunately. That means it has no effect against AP-3. If you get your SG in cover (and you should where possible), it also offers no benefit vs AP-4.

 

If you have a priest for healing/resurrection, that is probably better. The 5+++ from the Standard of Sacrifice is far more useful as this is on top of the regular save and means that overcharged plasma only has a 44% chance of killing an SG if they fail their save. It also helps a lot against massed small-arms fire, unlike the Shield.

 

I do usually run a Jump Libby with my SG but that is generally for Unleash Rage.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Fair point. My last game was against Sororitas and 3 tanks with literal organs on their backs. S8 AP-4 is baaad. Especially when your opponent just rolls 6’s for amount of shots over 3 turns.

[Remtek]

I got the most milage out of them running a SG model as warlord, you loose out on a warlord trait. This was before the new +1 attack so i ran them and sanguinour and would ocaionally use them with sanguinor if i needed to kill something like morty or talos. I usually also included astorath so i could give them +1 to hit before re-deploying them and ran them all with plasma pistols and powerfist.

 

With the new +1 attack you really don't need any support chars if you make one of them your warlord in my opinion.

[Morticon]

(I meant jump chap** btw!) 

[Demoulius]

It sounds to me like you are lacking firepower honestly.... I mean, dont get me wrong; I love our assault units. But sometimes all we need is a good shooting phase to just bring something down a few notches.   A unit of intercessors or hellblasters can quikly wipe out enemy units, especially if you give them rerolls. A captain AND lietenant nearby is hilariously trolly. And depending on their gear dont even have to cost to much either

 

Tackling assault terminators in close combat is in my opinion a terrible idea though. That 3++ makes them incredibly resiliant and if the space wolf player supports them with characters of his own you are better off either trying to kite them or just shooting them. I read that kiting is abit of a problem due to their transport. (also hence why I said a a lack of firepower seems to be an issue tbh...) Or, if you want to be a reall troll. Take assault terminators of your own and counter his anvil with your own. Not the best of solutions but you got all the strengths that they get and we are better on the first turn of combat thanks to red thirst.

 

It seems to me you are over invested in assault units. Question would be then how willing are you to add units to your list or to change things? Because if you dont want to change to much im afraid we cant help to much either

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

It sounds to me like you are lacking firepower honestly.... I mean, dont get me wrong; I love our assault units. But sometimes all we need is a good shooting phase to just bring something down a few notches.   A unit of intercessors or hellblasters can quikly wipe out enemy units, especially if you give them rerolls. A captain AND lietenant nearby is hilariously trolly. And depending on their gear dont even have to cost to much either

 

Tackling assault terminators in close combat is in my opinion a terrible idea though. That 3++ makes them incredibly resiliant and if the space wolf player supports them with characters of his own you are better off either trying to kite them or just shooting them. I read that kiting is abit of a problem due to their transport. (also hence why I said a a lack of firepower seems to be an issue tbh...) Or, if you want to be a reall troll. Take assault terminators of your own and counter his anvil with your own. Not the best of solutions but you got all the strengths that they get and we are better on the first turn of combat thanks to red thirst.

 

It seems to me you are over invested in assault units. Question would be then how willing are you to add units to your list or to change things? Because if you dont want to change to much im afraid we cant help to much either

I do agree, I am very much so lacking in firepower. This army has performed well against MEQ armies that don't have terminators. To be honest, I have a strong aversion against Primaris, I think that it is the worst thing GW has done to the game. Definitely will be an OG marine guy until GW inevitably does away with them.  I have a pair of Baal Predators, that have had some success with using weight of dice to remove the terminators. I am considering getting a couple more Predator tanks with the autocannon, or maybe adding in Heavy Bolters to the tactical squads.

[The Unseen]

I don't think Sanguinary guard are that great, especially if you aren't running the SoS with them, they are way to fragile against overcharged plasma and the like, and you don't have other units to draw that fire or take advantage of living, the opponent can safely throw every multi damage shot he has their way.

 

And stacking those kinds of units will be difficult if your avoiding primaris.

So I recomend just not running them.

DC are fine as they can use Forlorn Fury or Descent to get in close whether you go first or 2nd.

I do think lemartes is better than a generic chaplain though, that reroll charges off descent can be clutch.

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

I don't think Sanguinary guard are that great, especially if you aren't running the SoS with them, they are way to fragile against overcharged plasma and the like, and you don't have other units to draw that fire or take advantage of living, the opponent can safely throw every multi damage shot he has their way.

 

And stacking those kinds of units will be difficult if your avoiding primaris.

So I recomend just not running them.

DC are fine as they can use Forlorn Fury or Descent to get in close whether you go first or 2nd.

I do think lemartes is better than a generic chaplain though, that reroll charges off descent can be clutch.

I have the Lemartes model, and I run him when I am not playing against my main group and our strict No Named Characters Rule. His reroll has helped out too many times, even with DOA. I usually Forlon the DC, UWOF the VV and DOA the SG to get them all in the enemies face right away. I do see the validity to taking more fire support, just gotta figure out what suits the army, my play style and how I want to theme my list. Love Predators, but not sure how useful they really are.

[Demoulius]

Argh browser crashed and I lost my reply that I was typing out

 

I can see your point about the primaris. I really dislike how their lore was shoe-horned in as well. But I love the models (loved painting them :)) and their rules are quite good. Intercessors are essentially better tactical marines without special weapons. But their -1AP bolters are nothing to scoff at. They are very threatening I feel and the new bolter rules make them even more nasty!

 

A form of firepower that might help you is mortal wounds. Especially elite units like terminators are vunerable to it since it completly bypasses their tankyness. Since you have a liby dread you might know it already but smite is awesome for that. But smite alone might not cut it its at the end of the day to little mortal wounds to deal with a unit of terminators I feel.

 

A troop choice that I feel is AMAZING and completly underrated is scout snipers with camo cloaks. You can park them on an objective or high up on a flank (either way, in cover) and they can be a massive pain for your opponent. And theyre cheap to boot and 6's to wound are mortal wounds ONTOP of those wounds. Yay! That 2+ save when in cover makes them insanely tanky and a pest to deal with if your opponent cant charge them or ignore their cover. Often times my scouts see the end of battles and they most often easily earn back their points.

 

Another way to get mortal wounds in is to use a heavy bolter infantry model and use hellfire rounds strategem. For 1 CP you can dish out D3 mortal wounds. Not a bad option if terminators are really such a pain to you ;)

 

Another method to get those tasty mortal wounds is with missle launcher infantry models and flakk missles. Sure a normal krak missle launcher shot can do a potential of 6 wounds, but it also has to wound, get through armor and thus not get saved..... and then you need to roll high enough on the D6 for damage for it to be worth it. Flakk missle bypasses that.You hit? D3 mortal wounds. Only works against targets that can fly so not the terminators.... But would work against their transport!

 

Mind you as Blood Angels we already have plenty of things eating up our CP's but if the terminators in particular are giving you trouble it might be worth it to eyeball some of these things and see if they can help you in any way. The snipers dont need any CP investment to be relevant though. 

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

It sounds to me like you are lacking firepower honestly.... I mean, dont get me wrong; I love our assault units. But sometimes all we need is a good shooting phase to just bring something down a few notches. :rolleyes:  A unit of intercessors or hellblasters can quikly wipe out enemy units, especially if you give them rerolls. A captain AND lietenant nearby is hilariously trolly. And depending on their gear dont even have to cost to much either ^_^

 

Tackling assault terminators in close combat is in my opinion a terrible idea though. That 3++ makes them incredibly resiliant and if the space wolf player supports them with characters of his own you are better off either trying to kite them or just shooting them. I read that kiting is abit of a problem due to their transport. (also hence why I said a a lack of firepower seems to be an issue tbh...) Or, if you want to be a reall troll. Take assault terminators of your own and counter his anvil with your own. Not the best of solutions but you got all the strengths that they get and we are better on the first turn of combat thanks to red thirst.

 

It seems to me you are over invested in assault units. Question would be then how willing are you to add units to your list or to change things? Because if you dont want to change to much im afraid we cant help to much either :blush:

 

I do agree, I am very much so lacking in firepower. This army has performed well against MEQ armies that don't have terminators. To be honest, I have a strong aversion against Primaris, I think that it is the worst thing GW has done to the game. Definitely will be an OG marine guy until GW inevitably does away with them.  I have a pair of Baal Predators, that have had some success with using weight of dice to remove the terminators. I am considering getting a couple more Predator tanks with the autocannon, or maybe adding in Heavy Bolters to the tactical squads.

I agree with Demoulius here, the background of the Primaris insertion was quite unlucky. Brooding in stasis for 10.000 years, actively tampering with the Emperor’s work and conveniently being fathered into warriors by the AM and waking up just in time for the new story-line. Shoe-horned is the correct word. Their power increase on Space Marines is undeniably huge, and an obvious choice for players especially with the weak performance of the marine codex until now.

 

Despite the background, some of the models are really cool(the AoS syndrome) Not sure about the names of the new units, but I guess tacking “marines” behind the battlefield role of a unit isn’t too original either.

 

 

Getting rid of non-salamander Terminators is anything with -1 AP and D2 and lots of shots. You find that weapon, you got yourself a counter to that unit.

[Quixus]

A pretty common thing is to take a Sanguinary Ancient, make him your Warlord and give him the relic Standard of Sacrifice.

 

Now your SG re-roll hits, wound MEQ on 2’s and re-roll 1’s while rocking a 2+/5+++ save with the ability to get back up. Add a Librarian with Unleash Rage/Shield and go to town. Some people will call it cheese.

Don't forget a Jump Priest for S5 and one returned wound/turn

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

A pretty common thing is to take a Sanguinary Ancient, make him your Warlord and give him the relic Standard of Sacrifice.

Now your SG re-roll hits, wound MEQ on 2’s and re-roll 1’s while rocking a 2+/5+++ save with the ability to get back up. Add a Librarian with Unleash Rage/Shield and go to town. Some people will call it cheese.

 

Don't forget a Jump Priest for S5 and one returned wound/turn

Yep, that’s why wounding on 2’s! Used that in a game today actually, worked pretty well!

 

Also, Terminators are incredibly tanky with the SoS around. Whoa.