Ultramarines popularity?

[TorvaldTheMild]

First of all this isn't a 'hate on the Ultramarines' thread, but I was wondering do you think they would be as popular without the focus they get from GW?

[Marshal Rohr]

For sure. Romans are really popular across various wargames and the unique blend of Roman aesthetics and sci-fi is a winning combination. Blue, Gold, White, and Black are also really complentary and look striking in a tabletop wargame.

[TorvaldTheMild]

For sure. Romans are really popular across various wargames and the unique blend of Roman aesthetics and sci-fi is a winning combination. Blue, Gold, White, and Black are also really complentary and look striking in a tabletop wargame.

I've always thought the blue with white helmets looked cool as well as the sgt red and white.  I'm not saying they don't have great attributes but I want to know to what extent their focus gives them,

[Haywire]

I'm unsure, myself. Without the Games Workshop spotlight, I can't see the Ultramarines somehow becoming more prominent than the other Chapters out there. While Romans are popular, yes, I can't see them as being more popular than the likes of say, vikings, or crusaders. Their colour scheme is awesome, no doubt, but I just can't see them as doing as well as they have without that spotlight.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I'm unsure, myself. Without the Games Workshop spotlight, I can't see the Ultramarines somehow becoming more prominent than the other Chapters out there. While Romans are popular, yes, I can't see them as being more popular than the likes of say, vikings, or crusaders. Their colour scheme is awesome, no doubt, but I just can't see them as doing as well as they have without that spotlight.

Yeah because most of the factions have the same poster boys, so it seems a symptom of the focus they get, you have it with the Goffs, Cadians, Hive fleet leviathan, Order of Our martyred lady, Saim Hann etc.

[Marshal Loss]

Impossible to say because they have played such a prominent role in both lore and marketing for so many years. Obviously they wouldn't be as prominent if they didn't such an intense marketing focus shone on them constantly, but there is little reason to believe they wouldn't still be popular. You could argue that if Crimson Fists (just as an example) had received the same level of attention that their positions might be swapped but at that point it's just baseless speculation.

 

Off-topic, but I do wish GW would make an actual Roman-themed chapter, one with more than just a superficial smattering of Roman iconography. Lots of potential there.

[Biscuittzz]

Impossible to say because they have played such a prominent role in both lore and marketing for so many years. Obviously they wouldn't be as prominent if they didn't such an intense marketing focus shone on them constantly, but there is little reason to believe they wouldn't still be popular. You could argue that if Crimson Fists (just as an example) had received the same level of attention that their positions might be swapped but at that point it's just baseless speculation.

 

Off-topic, but I do wish GW would make an actual Roman-themed chapter, one with more than just a superficial smattering of Roman iconography. Lots of potential there.

 

I think it could have been Jes Goodwin that alluded to the fact that GW and FW are quite careful about completely appropriating real cultures into their armies. I think there was something saying they had a lot more ideas for the White Scars for example but were afraid of going too far down the Mongol route.

 

--

 

What I find funny in 30k is that people were so jaded from 40k ultras that when HH was kicking off nobody wanted to touch UM. Eventually UM became such a rare army to see that everyone wanted to start them so they became super common in anyway. Just what I've seen in my experience.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

Impossible to say because they have played such a prominent role in both lore and marketing for so many years. Obviously they wouldn't be as prominent if they didn't such an intense marketing focus shone on them constantly, but there is little reason to believe they wouldn't still be popular. You could argue that if Crimson Fists (just as an example) had received the same level of attention that their positions might be swapped but at that point it's just baseless speculation.

 

Off-topic, but I do wish GW would make an actual Roman-themed chapter, one with more than just a superficial smattering of Roman iconography. Lots of potential there.

 

I think it could have been Jes Goodwin that alluded to the fact that GW and FW are quite careful about completely appropriating real cultures into their armies. I think there was something saying they had a lot more ideas for the White Scars for example but were afraid of going too far down the Mongol route.

 

--

 

What I find funny in 30k is that people were so jaded from 40k ultras that when HH was kicking off nobody wanted to touch UM. Eventually UM became such a rare army to see that everyone wanted to start them so they became super common in anyway. Just what I've seen in my experience.

 

Yeah Matt Ward has a lot to answer for.  Its basically his fault that the Ultramarines are so hated.  In 2nd edition I can't remember tham ever being that hated.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

Impossible to say because they have played such a prominent role in both lore and marketing for so many years. Obviously they wouldn't be as prominent if they didn't such an intense marketing focus shone on them constantly, but there is little reason to believe they wouldn't still be popular. You could argue that if Crimson Fists (just as an example) had received the same level of attention that their positions might be swapped but at that point it's just baseless speculation.

 

Off-topic, but I do wish GW would make an actual Roman-themed chapter, one with more than just a superficial smattering of Roman iconography. Lots of potential there.

 

I think it could have been Jes Goodwin that alluded to the fact that GW and FW are quite careful about completely appropriating real cultures into their armies. I think there was something saying they had a lot more ideas for the White Scars for example but were afraid of going too far down the Mongol route.

 

--

 

What I find funny in 30k is that people were so jaded from 40k ultras that when HH was kicking off nobody wanted to touch UM. Eventually UM became such a rare army to see that everyone wanted to start them so they became super common in anyway. Just what I've seen in my experience.

 

I hope that isn't true, because it isn't appropriating cultures, its science fiction and its celebrating those cultures.  Its the same in real life we all like and celebrate others cultures, its just pettiness to enjoy and appropriate everything about one culture but then say 'Yeah but you can't enjoy ours'.  Plus it allows other cultures to enjoy 40k, like if you are black you might find that Salamanders appeal to you.  I love Space Wolves because of my Viking heritage, plus I also love Vikings.

[Brother Tyler]

We're done with the "appropriation" discussion - we don't need to go down that SJW rabbit hole.

 

This topic is about the Ultramarines and their level of popularity with or without the focus they receive from Games Workshop.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They have always been one of my favorite chapters along with Blood Angels and Templars.

[Vykes]

 

Yeah Matt Ward has a lot to answer for.  Its basically his fault that the Ultramarines are so hated.  In 2nd edition I can't remember tham ever being that hated.

 

They probably have a whole division of researchers and mathematicians that tells GW what will sell the best and most as a representation.

 

Don’t forget Ultramarines got their start waaaaay back when the colors available weren’t that stellar, and photography in books published even less so. Blue and yellow are striking complimentary colors, and no drawbacks of red and green or purple and orange.

...

 

Oye mates, I think you've both kinda nailed it as far as personal experience goes.  I started back in 2E when Blood Angels were the poster boys at the time and people were moving away from them because of the over-abundance of red between 2E 40K and 5E WFB.  But it's also because the paints at the time weren't all that great.  Red and black wasn't the easiest colours to paint with at the time given them going on over white primer with no shades to speak of.  But the blues I recall always had some pretty decent coverage and just 'looks' right.  More over, Chaos had more of the market on Red marines.  It all just 'popped' colour wise. 

 

I started out playing Ultramarines just because I wasn't good at painting Blood Angels at the time.  Then the 3E codex made them interesting and prominent (with the special characters for Calgar and Tigrus being both good and more numerous) so they came to my attention.  And speaking with my game group after today's game said that it was about the same point in time for them as well: 3E saw the rise of the Ultras. 

 

Slag the SJW title all you want, I'm not sure that 'that' was ever even a factor in the early days.  There wasn't a lot of differentiation between chapters in the earlier years when Ultramarines started to become the poster boys: they certainly didn't have anything unique in the models.  Blood Angels, Black Templars, Dark Angels, everyone was the same kit with a few metal 'specialty' models sprinkled here and there (with The Angels of Death lines having a little more modern special unit support and Space Wolves having some grungier upgrade kits hanging around).  But Ultramarines started to rise to the top despite Crimson Fists being on the cover. 

 

Then Ward happened and people just outright resented the 'narrative' beginning to form. Biscuittzz got it for me too: 30K wise, UM were so widely hated as a result of the Ward Reforms that no one wanted to use them and didn't like them.  The Black Library books and handling of UM in 30K have turned a lot around, and now they have a pretty fair number of vocal supporters.  

[Captain Idaho]

I was around during GW's "red period," where all their armies seemed to focus on red. Blood Angel used to be the poster boys. In 3rd the Black Templars looked to be GW's big new thing, with their studio army being Imperial Fists.

 

4th seemed to focus on Ultramarines as the core poster child and then on from then.

 

So going back to the old days, Ultramarines weren't quite as wide spread.

 

Now, Ultramarines are often the first models you ever paint as a newbie, but Ultramarines armies in the club were always fairly rare amongst the veterans, despite GW promotion.

 

There has been a recent resurgence in numbers since Guilliman coming along.

 

So competitive armies breed more popular armies in my view. Or at least they breed a player base at the very least.

[Kizzdougs]

No, they probably wouldn't be as popular, but I'm sure they'd still be a well supported Chapter. When you look past all of the whinging that you see about the Ultramarines online and actually engage with their fluff, they're a pretty cool faction with some of the best lore and a fantastic colour scheme.

 

​Disclaimer: all of this is from my pre 8th Edition/Dark Imperium/Great Rift perspective. I stopped collecting 40k and reading 40k material when GW updated the timeline :tu: 

 

 

What I find funny in 30k is that people were so jaded from 40k ultras that when HH was kicking off nobody wanted to touch UM. Eventually UM became such a rare army to see that everyone wanted to start them so they became super common in anyway. Just what I've seen in my experience.

 

I think that might have had something to do with the fact that the Ultramarines didn't have any rules/models until the fifth book in the AoD series. Once they got their rules we saw a proliferation of new UM armies, just as we have with the releases of the SW, TS, WS, BA and DA since.

 

Unfortunately there will always be a certain section of the community that begrudges the UM the attention they receive from GW, but I think the slow adoption of UM in 30k was due more to the lack of rules/models than a hangover from their treatment in 40k (not to say it wasn't a factor, but that there were bigger factors).

[Brother Tyler]

The Ultramarines would undoubtedly be less popular, and far less developed, if they weren't the poster boys of the Adeptus Astartes. That role was chosen for them part way through the 1st edition era, and solidified in 2nd edition. Many players viewed the Crimson Fists as the poster boys in 1st edition, almost solely because they were on the cover of the rulebook. If you look at other game references throughout that edition, though, you can see the Ultramarines ("Ultra Marines" at that time) gradually replacing the Crimson Fists. This was representative of the changes the lore was undergoing, developing from a chaotic melting pot of ideas into a more solidified storyline. Part of that was the evolution of the Space Marines from psychopathic killers into the monastic warriors of the Adeptus Astartes. The Crimson Fists were well known for the "KIL KIL KIL" motto that much of the artwork and minis carried. I suspect that they were supplanted by the Ultramarines as a way of reducing the focus on the psychopathic killer side and shifting to that professional monastic warrior aspect that Games Workshop wanted to portray. Regardless of who Games Workshop picked as the iconic Space Marine Chapter, that Chapter would end up with significant development, support, and focus; and as a result, they would have a higher level of popularity among hobbyists than other Chapters [who might be no less deserving]. If Games Workshop had picked the Imperial Fists instead of the Ultramarines*, then we'd see boxes with yellow toy soldiers instead of blue toy soldiers. Of course, yellow is notoriously difficult to paint, so maybe that was a bad example.

Many players have held the Ultramarines in contempt for many years, and though everyone has their reasons, some of that contempt can be attributed to a hostility towards "good guys." The Ultramarines are the Chapter that epitomizes the rules, and they are thus seen as boring by people that have a rebellious streak in them. This is a generalization, of course, just as much as calling the Ultramarines boring is a gross oversimplification and reduction of their character. Another explanation for some of the contempt that some hobbyists hold for the Ultramarines is that they are the poster boys and lots of people collect them, so these hobbyists will counter that in order to be different. There are myriad other reasons why people don't like the Ultramarines, and not all of them are unfair. Matt Ward isn't the chief villain in this. In fact, much of the lore that people blame him for has existed since 2nd edition Codex: Ultramarines - Mr. Ward merely sythesized and repackaged that lore in a particularly hyperbolic manner.

Think about the basic question posed by the OP, and make it more specific:

If some other Chapter had been chosen as the exemplars of Codex Chapters:

Let's say that Games Workshop had chosen the White Scars instead of the Ultramarines. The White Scars, after all, had an army list in Warhammer 40,000 Chapter Approved: Book of the Astronomican (and they weren't presented as the biker-Mongols that we've come to know). If Games Workshop had fleshed the White Scars (ahem, "Whitescars" is what they were called back then) out as the basic example.

The Whitescars Chapter of Space Marines as presented here, may be regarded as a representative example of the Imperium's elite forces.

("Imperium's elite forces" in this case means the Space Marines.)

Had we gone down that branch timeline, the popularity of the Ultramarines would be significantly reduced. Even if the basic lore for them had remained the same (though the role of Roboute Guilliman in codifying the Codex Astartes would probably be dramatically different, to the point of the Whitescars potentially being the source of whatever guidelines there might be for the Adeptus Astartes), they might be nothing more than the "Roman Space Marines" (to use a common perception of the Ultramarines). And we'd see lots of white-armoured Adeptus Astartes on rulebooks, edition boxes, miniature boxes, and codices.

[Prot]

Call me crazy but I think they’d be more popular if they weren’t supposed poster boys.

 

I play at a few different venues and tournaments regularly and I hear the hatred quite constantly. Of course I really got into Ultramarines when arguably around third edition Black Templars were probably the most popular marine army.

 

I used to hate it but now I relish the hate and I find a lot of the time it comes from some weird misunderstandings.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A lot of popularity is based upon how good are the army specific rules. For example Scars were extremely popular in seventh edition. Mat Ward’s codex was one of his worse ever IMO... For example just look how much the base points dropped when the sixth edition codex dropped. Another thing is if something is hated enough some people will hate it just for that reason alone not really having any legitimate basis.

[Ascanius]

If the Ultramarines were still presented in the narrative as the exemplary codex-adherent chapter, but the boxes and artwork featured a greater variety of chapters, I think they'd still be popular simply by being the example of "standard Space Marines", if less than they are now.

 

It makes sense to me that Games Workshop (eventually, as others have said) picked a single chapter to be the poster boy, and that it wound up being the one they'd earlier decided was going to be the one with the "factory default settings", so to speak.

 

Think about other products - cat food, for instance! Do a search for "canned cat food" or something similar, and notice how often those brands with photographs of cats on the can use some variety of domestic shorthair, usually a tabby variety or at least a bicolour. Notice that when there's variation from this theme, like how Fancy Feast uses a white longhair on its products, there's a branding reason for it - longhair cats are rarer, pure white cats likewise, there's a suggestion of extra care and attention required to keep them looking as good as in the photographs, a connotation of higher quality breeding and the like, that goes with the "Fancy Feast" name.

 

Yes, I am suggesting that Fancy Feast's white longhaired cat is the equivalent of this:

 

http://www.kelz0r.dk/magic/images/bangel_assault.jpg

 

I also agree with the comments made earlier in the thread that part of the appeal is how good the blue looks with multiple contrast colours - white/silver, black, red, yellow/gold. That would make them popular even if they weren't on 95% of the boxes you bring home from the shop.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I think it could have been Jes Goodwin that alluded to the fact that GW and FW are quite careful about completely appropriating real cultures into their armies. I think there was something saying they had a lot more ideas for the White Scars for example but were afraid of going too far down the Mongol route.

 

 

What he actually said in the voxcast was that he was personally disappointed with how Space Wolves had gone down a 'vikings in space' direction rather than a 'fantasy barbarians in space' one. He never made any statement of company policy.

 

 

 

Yeah Matt Ward has a lot to answer for.  Its basically his fault that the Ultramarines are so hated.  In 2nd edition I can't remember tham ever being that hated.

 

 

Nah, GW's official forums closed down back when Matt Ward was just a member of the White Dwarf team and 'Smurf' hate was a trend there.

[Sandlemad]

 

Impossible to say because they have played such a prominent role in both lore and marketing for so many years. Obviously they wouldn't be as prominent if they didn't such an intense marketing focus shone on them constantly, but there is little reason to believe they wouldn't still be popular. You could argue that if Crimson Fists (just as an example) had received the same level of attention that their positions might be swapped but at that point it's just baseless speculation.

 

Off-topic, but I do wish GW would make an actual Roman-themed chapter, one with more than just a superficial smattering of Roman iconography. Lots of potential there.

 

I think it could have been Jes Goodwin that alluded to the fact that GW and FW are quite careful about completely appropriating real cultures into their armies. I think there was something saying they had a lot more ideas for the White Scars for example but were afraid of going too far down the Mongol route.

 

Quite apart from the specifics of appropriation and the designers' feelings about, Jes Goodwin was pretty clear that he also finds directly pulling from once source, and I quote, "a bit naff". It's something he's been saying since about 4th edition, that restricting oneself to "X... in spaaace!" is dull and creatively sterile. He wrote a thing in WD around 2004-ish about how he wanted to emphasise that the UM were drawing from the larger grab-bag of classical antiquity. So you've got Spartan stuff, you've got Athenian stuff, you've got Roman stuff.

 

Same for what he said more recently for the wolves being flanderised to "wolf-vikings and only wolf-vikings" and also for knight houses on Vocast. Partially this is to stop him and other designers from getting bored or mining out their inspiration but I think it's also a source of some of the UM's popularity, that pop-culture appeal that's broader than just Romans.

 

This is almost certainly less of a factor than the legacy of, what, more than 20 years of deliberate GW choices to emphasise them as covered in Tyler's post - it's a loop, the level of attention they get gives them that background with a deliberately broad appeal - but it's a factor.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Of course UM popularity would have taken a hit. A quite substantial one, given how long and hard they've been put in the very center. All of that wiped from history? Yeah you better believe that'd had an impact. That's is just how it works. A good indication would be the state of Imperial Fists, Raven Guard or Iron Hands, to where UM would be at.

 

Don't mistake this for bias against UM talking, it'd be the same for anyone and everyone. To take an analogy with my own chapter, the Black Templars, there's no way in hell they'd be anywhere near as popular as they are today, if they hadn't been the poster boys for the 3rd edition box. Yes that ancient little event was quite vital for BT's popularity today, without which we probably wouldn't have had a codex in 4th, and we'd likely be on the level of Novamarines? Silver skulls? Less than? in terms of popularity today. A relatively obscure paint theme among the few hundreds GW has officially detailed.

 

Being the center of attention is absolutely huge if you ask me.

[Captain Idaho]

Back in the mists of time, when 2nd edition came out, GW were giving out an introductory leaflet which gave some tips on painting your first Space Marine models, using a monopose boxed set Blood Angel as the core.

 

However, it's all in the presentation. The back of the page had a selection of Chapters and each of us youngsters would marvel at the distinct painting schemes etc and choose a Chapter to be "ours".

 

If the Space Marines Codex had a more diverse presentation it is likely folk would choose their armies accordingly.

 

However, the Supplements alongside competitive play and a broader access to community information is a new set of factors in play now over all those years ago. Bottom line is a Codex needs to be playable in the eyes of many.

[Marshal Reinhard]

My first ever Space Marine army was actually Blood Angels, chosen in no small part because of how prominently they featured in the 2nd edition rules box. They were hyped up a lot in the book and my young self easily influenced.

 

Presentation is key. But it's not just about presentation in leaflets, books or such.

 

Little Timmy's gonna be very influenced about the colour scheme that's on front of the box of the kit too...

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

Yeah Matt Ward has a lot to answer for.  Its basically his fault that the Ultramarines are so hated.  In 2nd edition I can't remember tham ever being that hated.

 

They probably have a whole division of researchers and mathematicians that tells GW what will sell the best and most as a representation.

 

Don’t forget Ultramarines got their start waaaaay back when the colors available weren’t that stellar, and photography in books published even less so. Blue and yellow are striking complimentary colors, and no drawbacks of red and green or purple and orange.

...

 

Oye mates, I think you've both kinda nailed it as far as personal experience goes.  I started back in 2E when Blood Angels were the poster boys at the time and people were moving away from them because of the over-abundance of red between 2E 40K and 5E WFB.  But it's also because the paints at the time weren't all that great.  Red and black wasn't the easiest colours to paint with at the time given them going on over white primer with no shades to speak of.  But the blues I recall always had some pretty decent coverage and just 'looks' right.  More over, Chaos had more of the market on Red marines.  It all just 'popped' colour wise. 

 

I started out playing Ultramarines just because I wasn't good at painting Blood Angels at the time.  Then the 3E codex made them interesting and prominent (with the special characters for Calgar and Tigrus being both good and more numerous) so they came to my attention.  And speaking with my game group after today's game said that it was about the same point in time for them as well: 3E saw the rise of the Ultras. 

 

Slag the SJW title all you want, I'm not sure that 'that' was ever even a factor in the early days.  There wasn't a lot of differentiation between chapters in the earlier years when Ultramarines started to become the poster boys: they certainly didn't have anything unique in the models.  Blood Angels, Black Templars, Dark Angels, everyone was the same kit with a few metal 'specialty' models sprinkled here and there (with The Angels of Death lines having a little more modern special unit support and Space Wolves having some grungier upgrade kits hanging around).  But Ultramarines started to rise to the top despite Crimson Fists being on the cover. 

 

Then Ward happened and people just outright resented the 'narrative' beginning to form. Biscuittzz got it for me too: 30K wise, UM were so widely hated as a result of the Ward Reforms that no one wanted to use them and didn't like them.  The Black Library books and handling of UM in 30K have turned a lot around, and now they have a pretty fair number of vocal supporters.  

 

Yeah I remember the days of the red, you couldn't find an Eldar army that wasn't Saim Hann.  

[Marshal Loss]

Forgive me for going off-topic, just wanted to reply to a particular point:

 

Quite apart from the specifics of appropriation and the designers' feelings about, Jes Goodwin was pretty clear that he also finds directly pulling from once source, and I quote, "a bit naff". It's something he's been saying since about 4th edition, that restricting oneself to "X... in spaaace!" is dull and creatively sterile. He wrote a thing in WD around 2004-ish about how he wanted to emphasise that the UM were drawing from the larger grab-bag of classical antiquity. So you've got Spartan stuff, you've got Athenian stuff, you've got Roman stuff.

 

You make a fair point about this being a factor, and while I think JG is totally correct re: Space Wolves, who feel like a parody of themselves most of the time, there is something to be said for a primary source of inspiration. ADB's SOTE has the best contemporary example of a chapter being themed around a real-world culture/region in my opinion - for the record, that's the sort of thing I'm advocating for. It is clearly possible to draw a great deal from a singular real world source (whether that be a region, a culture, a temporal period, etc) without actively restricting yourself to said source. The Ultramarines wear some of the trappings of Roman civilization and that's basically it. This suits their role as the faction's poster boy but doesn't mean it couldn't be explored more effectively elsewhere.

 

Back on topic, Tyler's post was excellent (and to be honest I hadn't known that the focus was being moved from the Crimson Fists to the Ultra Marines so early on). Always nice to learn something about the genesis of the setting.