Ultramarines popularity?

[TorvaldTheMild]

Forgive me for going off-topic, just wanted to reply to a particular point:

 

Quite apart from the specifics of appropriation and the designers' feelings about, Jes Goodwin was pretty clear that he also finds directly pulling from once source, and I quote, "a bit naff". It's something he's been saying since about 4th edition, that restricting oneself to "X... in spaaace!" is dull and creatively sterile. He wrote a thing in WD around 2004-ish about how he wanted to emphasise that the UM were drawing from the larger grab-bag of classical antiquity. So you've got Spartan stuff, you've got Athenian stuff, you've got Roman stuff.

 

You make a fair point about this being a factor, and while I think JG is totally correct re: Space Wolves, who feel like a parody of themselves most of the time, there is something to be said for a primary source of inspiration. ADB's SOTE has the best contemporary example of a chapter being themed around a real-world culture/region in my opinion - for the record, that's the sort of thing I'm advocating for. It is clearly possible to draw a great deal from a singular real world source (whether that be a region, a culture, a temporal period, etc) without actively restricting yourself to said source. The Ultramarines wear some of the trappings of Roman civilization and that's basically it. This suits their role as the faction's poster boy but doesn't mean it couldn't be explored more effectively elsewhere.

 

Back on topic, Tyler's post was excellent (and to be honest I hadn't known that the focus was being moved from the Crimson Fists to the Ultra Marines so early on). Always nice to learn something about the genesis of the setting.

I won't touch on appropriation again but I think we'd lose a lot of flavour if we done away with real world cultures.  Especially in audiobooks and dramas, we can't make up our own accents, that would be virtually impossible but If everyone had and English accent it would be ridiculous, especially for me with Khârn I can't imagine him without that Russian accent, even though he didn't have it in the beginning.

[Marshal Rohr]

All Accents are made up  I can't remember the word, but I want to say idiolect? Maybe. 

[TorvaldTheMild]

All Accents are made up  I can't remember the word, but I want to say idiolect? Maybe. 

Yeah but not on the spot lol 

[Volt]

For sure. Romans are really popular across various wargames and the unique blend of Roman aesthetics and sci-fi is a winning combination. Blue, Gold, White, and Black are also really complentary and look striking in a tabletop wargame.

Where are the Ultramarines actually Roman though? Nothing in the Ultramarine range outside of the good Forge World kit is actually that striking as Roman and the Aquila pattern armor is really not fitting compared to MK II. The odd HQ might have some centurion themes but when you look at entire Ultramarine army -

 

 

There's nothing in the range that really screams ROME IN SPESSSS at all. Ultramarines have always suffered from being "generic" due to using the 'default' miniatures unlike the specialized members of the Big Four who get all of the unique, customized models.

 

 

And if you look at their art, most of it has more bearing with the Churburg #13 harness than it does with anything specifically Roman in style.

[Toxichobbit]

The roman theme is less well developed (thank god) than the themes of some other famous Chapters, but it's always been there. A photo of a random army of mostly generic Marine models painted as Ultramarines does't prove otherwise. Take a look at the Ultramarines specific models over the years and the greco-roman theme is obvious. Lets look at the original models for the big four Chapters that show their proto-themes.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--UpWsx-A5qY/USpPcpEISBI/AAAAAAAAArw/bjHz0hsTBZQ/s1600/IMG_1882.JPG

 

The themes are apparent already, even at this point where all the Chapters were just names and colour schemes. The Wolves are wolfy, the Blood Angel has the haloed death mask and sculpted musculature, the Dark Angel has the feathered helm decoration and hooded angel motif (robes came much later) and the Ultramarine has pteruges, a transverse helmet crest and laurel wreath - all Roman inspired elements.

 

This continued down the years with Ultramarines specific models. Just look at Calgar,  the Honour Guard, Tigurius, the design of the Chapter banner etc. It has been diluted in the last decade or so by Sabretooth, Black Library & Forge World as they took most of the elements that made Ultramarines unique and used them on generic Marines to make the HH series.

 

There's also hints at the Roman influence in some of the Ultramarines novels. It's not as obvious as the other three Chapters, but it's there. That's one of the things that bugs me when people say Ultramarines are generic and boring. No, they really aren't (though to be fair, boring is a matter of personal taste). They're just more subtle and less in your face than the other big three. They're the opposite end of the spectrum than the Wolves, who have wolf-this and wolf-that while riding wolf pulled sleighs, with the Dark and Blood Angels being somewhere inbetween.

[Claws and Effect]

No, I don't think they'd be quite as popular if they weren't on every box cover and piece of promotional material.

 

I think part of the reason GW initially chose them when they shifted the focus away from the Crimson Fists is the fact that they are the only prominent Chapter that actually has the word "marine" in their name.

 

They actually shrewdly recognized that the average customer walking into something cold is actually pretty dumb and needs things spelled out for them. So average customer walks into a store looking to check out these "space marines" from the game his friend told him about. He sees the boxes labeled Space Marine Whatever and flips one over to find that the blue guys on the front are called Ultramarines.

 

When you see a word like ultra or super appended to something your brain immediately connects that with it being better than the normal version. It's just how the language works.

 

So their name serves to both hammer home the message that they are Marines, and it implies that they are better than the other Chapters because it has "ultra" in it.

 

So GW marketed them as hard as they did because they realized that the average person coming into a new thing is pretty ignorant about it and needs the nudge to get what they need to come to a somewhat informed conclusion.

 

And they would probably still be fairly popular just because of their name and appealing color scheme. Why have a Space Marine when you could have an Ultramarine? Their name makes them sound like a better version when they are the exact same thing, and people in general are pretty dumb when it comes to things like that.

[Volt]

The roman theme is less well developed (thank god) than the themes of some other famous Chapters, but it's always been there. A photo of a random army of mostly generic Marine models painted as Ultramarines does't prove otherwise. Take a look at the Ultramarines specific models over the years and the greco-roman theme is obvious. Lets look at the original models for the big four Chapters that show their proto-themes.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--UpWsx-A5qY/USpPcpEISBI/AAAAAAAAArw/bjHz0hsTBZQ/s1600/IMG_1882.JPG

 

The themes are apparent already, even at this point where all the Chapters were just names and colour schemes. The Wolves are wolfy, the Blood Angel has the haloed death mask and sculpted musculature, the Dark Angel has the feathered helm decoration and hooded angel motif (robes came much later) and the Ultramarine has pteruges, a transverse helmet crest and laurel wreath - all Roman inspired elements.

 

This continued down the years with Ultramarines specific models. Just look at Calgar,  the Honour Guard, Tigurius, the design of the Chapter banner etc. It has been diluted in the last decade or so by Sabretooth, Black Library & Forge World as they took most of the elements that made Ultramarines unique and used them on generic Marines to make the HH series.

 

There's also hints at the Roman influence in some of the Ultramarines novels. It's not as obvious as the other three Chapters, but it's there. That's one of the things that bugs me when people say Ultramarines are generic and boring. No, they really aren't (though to be fair, boring is a matter of personal taste). They're just more subtle and less in your face than the other big three. They're the opposite end of the spectrum than the Wolves, who have wolf-this and wolf-that while riding wolf pulled sleighs, with the Dark and Blood Angels being somewhere inbetween.

It's not that they aren't in your face about it, it's that besides their Captain model they're not in your face at all about it. There actually was a planned overhaul of the Ultramarine aesthetic with concept art from Gallagher having leaked on the internet a couple years ago, but unfortunately their plans clearly went no-where. As unlike the current Ultramarines, they would have given them a really proper feel for even their infantry, not just Captains.

 

 

 

 

[MegaVolt87]

I always liked the Ultramarines look, Roman styled characters with the more plain infantry. Nothing bad about being space Romans IMO. Would rather a mono theme than a blended one. Sparta marines are the Minotaurs, or Iron Warriors if you model them up that way etc.  

[Toxichobbit]

 

It's not that they aren't in your face about it, it's that besides their Captain model they're not in your face at all about it. There actually was a planned overhaul of the Ultramarine aesthetic with concept art from Gallagher having leaked on the internet a couple years ago, but unfortunately their plans clearly went no-where. As unlike the current Ultramarines, they would have given them a really proper feel for even their infantry, not just Captains.

 

The Roman influences are still plenty visible (despite what you say, it's not just on that Captain model). Look at the Honour Guard, Victrix Guard and upgrade packs. There's pteruges, both types of crests, laurel wreaths and gladiii. The Victrix Guard are posed similarly to Roman Legionaries, shield held in front, gladius at the waist. Even the Legion/Chapter number is a reference to one of Caesar's famous Legions. I'd rather they were as they are, less in your face than the others. Lets face it, GW's* attempts at giving chapters character have been ham-fisted. The Dark Angels never seem to show up in the background unless they're hunting Fallen. The Blood Angels have blood fists, blood talons, overly-ornate armour, blood missiles etc. The Space Wolves ... well, I don't really need to go into that one. The point is that the Ultramarines still have plenty of character, it's just not as dominant as the others. It makes them more appealing to some players who find the overly-characterful Chapters too much. If they were over-done like the other big three then they'd make for a terrible flagship Chapter and would loose their appeal to some of their fans. It also fits them as a professional Marine Chapter, rather than space vikings, space monks or space artisans/vampires.

 

While they could have a little more Roman influence or a bit more in the way of Tyrannic War honours, I'd absolutely hate for them to become like the other three, with everything being so unique that it stops being unique, their characters lost in a sea of robes/ornate armour/wolf pelts.

 

* GW specifically. Not BL or FW, who have far more subtlety and variation in their creations.

[Captain Idaho]

None of the Chapters from Codex Space Marines have alm their full character because the boxes are generic enough to be utilised by all.

 

Upgrade packs, background, specific characters etc are where the character of a Chapter is focused. Saying the Ultramarines don't have character because their support isn't total and complete is inaccurate.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Crap. Now I desperately want to make an Uktramarine ancient that looks like a Roman signifer wearing a tyranid hide.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

The roman theme is less well developed (thank god) than the themes of some other famous Chapters, but it's always been there. A photo of a random army of mostly generic Marine models painted as Ultramarines does't prove otherwise. Take a look at the Ultramarines specific models over the years and the greco-roman theme is obvious. Lets look at the original models for the big four Chapters that show their proto-themes.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--UpWsx-A5qY/USpPcpEISBI/AAAAAAAAArw/bjHz0hsTBZQ/s1600/IMG_1882.JPG

 

The themes are apparent already, even at this point where all the Chapters were just names and colour schemes. The Wolves are wolfy, the Blood Angel has the haloed death mask and sculpted musculature, the Dark Angel has the feathered helm decoration and hooded angel motif (robes came much later) and the Ultramarine has pteruges, a transverse helmet crest and laurel wreath - all Roman inspired elements.

 

This continued down the years with Ultramarines specific models. Just look at Calgar,  the Honour Guard, Tigurius, the design of the Chapter banner etc. It has been diluted in the last decade or so by Sabretooth, Black Library & Forge World as they took most of the elements that made Ultramarines unique and used them on generic Marines to make the HH series.

 

There's also hints at the Roman influence in some of the Ultramarines novels. It's not as obvious as the other three Chapters, but it's there. That's one of the things that bugs me when people say Ultramarines are generic and boring. No, they really aren't (though to be fair, boring is a matter of personal taste). They're just more subtle and less in your face than the other big three. They're the opposite end of the spectrum than the Wolves, who have wolf-this and wolf-that while riding wolf pulled sleighs, with the Dark and Blood Angels being somewhere inbetween.

It's not that they aren't in your face about it, it's that besides their Captain model they're not in your face at all about it. There actually was a planned overhaul of the Ultramarine aesthetic with concept art from Gallagher having leaked on the internet a couple years ago, but unfortunately their plans clearly went no-where. As unlike the current Ultramarines, they would have given them a really proper feel for even their infantry, not just Captains.

 

 

 

 

 

Those are really cool.  I don't see why they didn't do that.

[Ascanius]

They could do it with upgrade kits, but the reason they don't convert Ultramarines over to a more specific look like the other three big chapters is because the Ultramarines are the exemplar of "out of the box Space Marines".

 

Speaking of chapters that could be more Roman in theme and organisation, I believe it's the White Consuls that, appropriate to their name, have two co-equal chapter masters who divide their duties between, basically, "lead the chapter on campaign" and "protect the chapter's holdings", in the same way that traditionally only one consul of Rome was supposed to go to war if necessary while the other governed the city.

[Captain Idaho]

On the note of Ultramarines popularity, I see much less hatred towards them I used to. I even remember attending GW tournaments where folk would give me grief about having an Ultramarines army.

 

Today things seem different and I think most people appreciate the Ultramarines now.

 

The Heresy novels went some way to alleviate the disdain towards Ultramarines but I also believe the 1 line about a spiritual liege has disappeared into the mists of time now.

[karden00]

I started UM back in mid 2nd edition because I Łövéd how blue space marines looked. The first kit I ever bought came at the recommendation of a salesman who pointed me to the 2nd edition box of ... chaos space marines ... (I’ve already answered to the Inquisition, so nothing to worry about)

The Second Edition Big Box is a thing of true beauty, and yes, back then, red was in. To my youthful eye, unaided by access to the internet (if it even existed then), there was little to no push from GW towards the UM. The most we got was the blurb in the 2nd ed codex about how they are the greatest chapter of space marines.

Then third dropped, and I have to say, as an avid UM player, I never felt like we got any love from GW at all. Third was a big shift from second. Gone we’re the paint factory explosions of colour that characterized the Orks. Gone were the Squats. The BRB had a bestiary for every unit in the game, and even the mightiest space marines were incredibly soft. The Codex allowed for a lot of specialization, however, and more or less any home brewed character could lay out Marneus Calgar in his sleep. When Chapter Approved: Index Astartes came a knocking, and every chapter got fleshed our histories, chapter-wise rules, and special characters, the UM got.... nothing. We were/are the vanilla chapter. Tyrannic War Veterans aside (I never bought them, never once used them, despite my most regular opponent being Tyranid with a serious hate-on for anything blue) IA told us quite clearly that our strength was that we were jack of all trades, good (as good as literally Any Other Marine) at everything, but great at nothing.

I never played a game of 4th, 7th, or 8th. I cannot speak to most of the mechanics, but it was 4th when we came into the spotlight. I remember my regular Tyrannic opponent dabbled in Space Marines, and I loved when he picked up the new Calgar and got the Armour of Antilochus. And how he was better than a way bs 5, s t 4, w4, I5 pushover and was now kind of a tough cookie. This was when I started to feel the marketing love from GW. And I suppose this hasn’t really let up much since. We’ve been in how many starter boxes since? And how many unit boxes? Were UM the guys on The cover of the 3rd edition tactical squad box? I do t remember, but there’s no question they dominate boxes nowadays.

On another note, I’ve always felt that the other three of the big four, and even others like the Sallies and BTs have always had a Huge leg up on us. Just to see what would happen, I once played a game against a regular Tyranid opponent where I used my blue models as a BA army list. Back then, storm ravens were still exclusively BA, but I had bought one because they hinted so strongly that other chapters would get them. I called it the Blue Raven and it didn’t shoot blood missiles, it shot blue missiles. I included the Sanguinor (calling him the Blueguinor). I tabled the nids in two turns. The Bluerioso dreadnought with a pair of blue talons ate a carnifex in one round of combat, and then ate a trygon.

We did the whole thing to show that while our normal games were always fairly competitive, another list (granted one he was not used to playing against), but he saw the codex and knew what my units could do and... I just couldnt help but feel that when you’re used to playing with vanilla marines, the things you can do with a specialized list are... I dunno, rather comical.

So how do I objectively comment on ‘getting the love’ from GW when other armies are given insane amounts of buffs in the rules. When you buy BA units, you usually get red armoured dudes on the box.

[Sandlemad]

Forgive me for going off-topic, just wanted to reply to a particular point:

 

Quite apart from the specifics of appropriation and the designers' feelings about, Jes Goodwin was pretty clear that he also finds directly pulling from once source, and I quote, "a bit naff". It's something he's been saying since about 4th edition, that restricting oneself to "X... in spaaace!" is dull and creatively sterile. He wrote a thing in WD around 2004-ish about how he wanted to emphasise that the UM were drawing from the larger grab-bag of classical antiquity. So you've got Spartan stuff, you've got Athenian stuff, you've got Roman stuff.

 

You make a fair point about this being a factor, and while I think JG is totally correct re: Space Wolves, who feel like a parody of themselves most of the time, there is something to be said for a primary source of inspiration. ADB's SOTE has the best contemporary example of a chapter being themed around a real-world culture/region in my opinion - for the record, that's the sort of thing I'm advocating for. It is clearly possible to draw a great deal from a singular real world source (whether that be a region, a culture, a temporal period, etc) without actively restricting yourself to said source. The Ultramarines wear some of the trappings of Roman civilization and that's basically it. This suits their role as the faction's poster boy but doesn't mean it couldn't be explored more effectively elsewhere.

 

Yeah SoTE is a good case, though I would contest it slightly as say that as much as the Spears are a good evocation of sub-Roman Britain, there is quite a lot to their character that is specific to their recent in-40k universe history (being worn down, continued relationship with the UM/Lions/Scorpions) rather than being purely taken from the historical/literary style of their parent culture. They are subtly done though and this is probably what you mean by "without actively restricting yourself to said source".

 

In fairness though how well that works may be because of how sub-Roman Britain is slightly more obscure in general knowledge and probably needs more effort to deploy well. I feel like I've seen too many chapters/IAs that are to the effect of "this is my Viking chapter, here are their horns, their chapter master is called Odin, first company captain is called Thor, the chapter relic is a thunder hammer called Mjolnir...". Execution and depth of knowledge is tied intimately to how well inspiration can be drawn upon, though that kind of ends up being 'if it's done well, it's done well'. JG's thoughts on taking from multiple sources of RL inspiration have probably born fruit more clearly in recent AoS stuff, to be honest.

 

RE: the Dave Gallagher sketches for the 4th ed. UM, there was a relevant one of Cassius republished in the WD where he had a very Roman-style cloak and animal-head hood/headdress thing, you know, like those you see on illustrations of Roman aquilifers/standard bearers*.

 

In his case though it was a Tyranid 'skin', merging both the Tyrannic war veteran look and the specifically Roman look they explored elsewhere in the sketches. In the design notes though Jes Goodwin said that he felt this was too on-the-nose, both in terms of trophy-taking and of Roman inspiration. Hence their dialling it back to the more 'civilised' example of a book bound in Tyranid hide and having a sculpted representations of tyranids on e.g. his crozius. So there was definitely some internal discussion of how far to go with this: more in the way of pteruges and laurels than of centurions and pila.

 

* I understand there's some question over how much this kind of 'uniform' was used in practice and how much of it was a kind of occasional artistic convention that has been generalised out into a modern standard, which would be an interesting point for GW's design folks engaging as much with the traditional pop culture image of the Roman legions as the actual evidence.

[Sandlemad]

Forgive me for going off-topic, just wanted to reply to a particular point:

 

Quite apart from the specifics of appropriation and the designers' feelings about, Jes Goodwin was pretty clear that he also finds directly pulling from once source, and I quote, "a bit naff". It's something he's been saying since about 4th edition, that restricting oneself to "X... in spaaace!" is dull and creatively sterile. He wrote a thing in WD around 2004-ish about how he wanted to emphasise that the UM were drawing from the larger grab-bag of classical antiquity. So you've got Spartan stuff, you've got Athenian stuff, you've got Roman stuff.

 

You make a fair point about this being a factor, and while I think JG is totally correct re: Space Wolves, who feel like a parody of themselves most of the time, there is something to be said for a primary source of inspiration. ADB's SOTE has the best contemporary example of a chapter being themed around a real-world culture/region in my opinion - for the record, that's the sort of thing I'm advocating for. It is clearly possible to draw a great deal from a singular real world source (whether that be a region, a culture, a temporal period, etc) without actively restricting yourself to said source. The Ultramarines wear some of the trappings of Roman civilization and that's basically it. This suits their role as the faction's poster boy but doesn't mean it couldn't be explored more effectively elsewhere.

 

Yeah SoTE is a good case, though I would contest it slightly to say that as much as the Spears are a good evocation of sub-Roman Britain, there is quite a lot to their character that is specific to their recent in-40k universe history (being worn down, continued relationship with the UM/Lions/Scorpions) rather than being purely taken from the historical/literary depiction of their parent culture. They are subtly done and well done though and this is probably what you mean by "without actively restricting yourself to said source".

 

In fairness though how well that works may be because of how sub-Roman Britain is slightly more obscure and probably demands more effort to deploy well. I feel like I've seen too many chapters/IAs that are to the effect of "this is my Viking chapter, here are their horns, their chapter master is called Odin, first company captain is called Thor, the chapter relic is a thunder hammer called Mjolnir...". Execution and depth of knowledge are tied intimately to how well inspiration can be drawn upon, which kind of ends up being 'if it's done well, it's done well' so I take your point. JG's thoughts on taking from multiple sources of RL inspiration have probably born fruit more clearly in recent AoS stuff, to be honest.

 

RE: the Dave Gallagher sketches for the 4th ed. UM, there was a relevant one of Cassius republished in the WD where he had a very Roman-style cloak and animal-head hood/headdress thing, you know, like those you see on illustrations of Roman aquilifers/standard bearers*.

 

In his case though it was a Tyranid 'skin', merging both the Tyrannic war veteran look and the specifically Roman look they explored elsewhere in the sketches. In the design notes though Jes Goodwin said that he felt this was too on-the-nose, both in terms of trophy-taking and of Roman inspiration. Hence their dialling it back to the more 'civilised' example of a book bound in Tyranid hide and having a sculpted representations of tyranids on e.g. his crozius. So there was definitely some internal discussion of how far to go with this: more in the way of pteruges and laurels than of centurions and pila.

 

* I understand there's some question over how much this kind of 'uniform' was used in practice and how much of it was a kind of occasional artistic convention that has been generalised out into a modern standard, which would be an interesting point for GW's design folks engaging as much with the traditional pop culture image of the Roman legions as the actual evidence.