Assassins and Doctrines

[Galron]

If you bring an assassin in with a stratagem, does it take away your doctrines? There is some discussion on this and I am trying to decide on an army list

[Shandathe]

Short answer, no. 

 

I'm guessing the argument is that it's a loose Elite choice running around that's making the army non-Battleforged? 

 

Thing is, the moment Battle-forged is tested for is when the army shows up for the battle. This status doesn't change afterwards, or you'd lose your Doctrines as soon as a unit that happens to be a Mandatory selection in a Detachment gets killed. Or, to get even closer, when Chaos Daemons summon in some additional Daemons through Daemonic Ritual.

 

In short, having the leftover points for an assassin and trading those (and 2 CP) in during Deployment doesn't change the Battle-forged status.

[thewarriorhunter]

That's the first time I've ever heard that interpretation. My understanding is that leaving room for an assassin means your army (your entire list) is no longer battle-forged because you have non-Astartes units in the army.

 

 

Thing is, the moment Battle-forged is tested for is when the army shows up for the battle. This status doesn't change afterwards, or you'd lose your Doctrines as soon as a unit that happens to be a Mandatory selection in a Detachment gets killed. Or, to get even closer, when Chaos Daemons summon in some additional Daemons through Daemonic Ritual.

 

This makes no sense? If I lose a unit that has a keyword that makes my army battle forged it's still battle forged because I haven't added a unit that breaks that rule. I'm also not sure why you mention Chaos since they don't have the Doctrines ability.

[BluejayJunior]

The army is Battle-forged regardless of when/if the assassin shows up. It's not an issue of whether the army is battle-forged or not. If summoning an assassin meant it wasn't battle-forged, then it would be illegal in matched play which requires a battle-forged army.

In order to use combat doctrines, every unit in the army must have the Combat Doctrine ability. The argument is either that the assassin negates this because you have a unit on the field that does not have the Combat Doctrine ability. Or that the assassin doesn't matter because every unit in the list has the Combat Doctrine ability and using reinforcement points for the assassin doesn't change the makeup of the list.

Both arguments make a lot of sense. I don't think people will come to a general consensus until GW answers the question, hopefully in the Space marine FAQ. 

[Shandathe]

That's the first time I've ever heard that interpretation. My understanding is that leaving room for an assassin means your army (your entire list) is no longer battle-forged because you have non-Astartes units in the army.

 

 

Thing is, the moment Battle-forged is tested for is when the army shows up for the battle. This status doesn't change afterwards, or you'd lose your Doctrines as soon as a unit that happens to be a Mandatory selection in a Detachment gets killed. Or, to get even closer, when Chaos Daemons summon in some additional Daemons through Daemonic Ritual.

 

This makes no sense? If I lose a unit that has a keyword that makes my army battle forged it's still battle forged because I haven't added a unit that breaks that rule. I'm also not sure why you mention Chaos since they don't have the Doctrines ability.

Adding (or losing!) a unit doesn't change Battle-forged status once you've chosen your army. 

 

EDIT: You get your Chapter Tactics or Doctrines as long as your army is Battle-forged. There is NO restriction on Astartes only in your army. You can field an Ultramarines Detachment next to a Catachan Detachment and they'll both get their Chapter Tactics/Doctrines. It's only about everything being in a proper Detachment.

 

EDIT 2: If you're going for the Stratagem way of adding an Assassin to your army, there's no Assassin in your army when you show up to the battle. There are reinforcement points in your army, and you're Battle-forged. If you bring him in an Auxiliary Support Detachment, he's a Detachment and you're still Battle-forged (but paying the additional CP for the Stratagem way gives you flexibility).

 

Chaos Daemons DOES have Daemonic Loci when Battle-forged, which is effectively their Doctrine system. They're well-known for summoning units mid-game, which I thought made them a good example.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Shandathe

[thewarriorhunter]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I could maybe see a case for the 2CP way to skirt the RAW, but I believe RAI the Combat Doctrines are for mono-codex armies. I'll bow out of this one and wait for the GW FAQ.

[Shandathe]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I could maybe see a case for the 2CP way to skirt the RAW, but I believe RAI the Combat Doctrines are for mono-codex armies. I'll bow out of this one and wait for the GW FAQ.

I'll actually have to partially eat my words here, because I figured it for just another Regimental Doctrine equivalent. This one DOES specifically say if every units from your army has this ability.

 

That having been said, the Assassin-from-Stratagem still isn't in your army when the game begins, thus the Devastator Doctrine is active and I'm not sure the Assassin showing up during deployment changes that... though it's very much the twilight zone of the rules.

[Galron]

And that is the question lol. I want to make a 30k loyalist AL army (I have most of the models still on sprue and figured out a fairly easy teal paint scheme) and want to use Exodus(the AL super sniper)  and just field a vindicare. But given how useful the doctrines are now that I have used them, I would prefer not to lose them. This is definitely a GW FAQ question.

[Cornishman]

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I could maybe see a case for the 2CP way to skirt the RAW, but I believe RAI the Combat Doctrines are for mono-codex armies. I'll bow out of this one and wait for the GW FAQ.

I'll actually have to partially eat my words here, because I figured it for just another Regimental Doctrine equivalent. This one DOES specifically say if every units from your army has this ability.

 

That having been said, the Assassin-from-Stratagem still isn't in your army when the game begins, thus the Devastator Doctrine is active and I'm not sure the Assassin showing up during deployment changes that... though it's very much the twilight zone of the rules.

 

 

Reading the RAW one of the requirements is based on your army. Units added through reinforcements points whilst not part of a detachment do form part of your army. As soon as you choose to use the reinforcement points to add an Assassin to your army then you no longer satisfying the requirement for all units (other than Servitors and unaligned units) to have Combat Doctorines ability. So whilst a your army is still battle forged, and a doctorine may be active any units with the Combat Doctorines ability are not able to gain the benefit of the active doctorine as your army no longer meets the requirements to do so.

[Panzer]

Straight from the new FAQ:

 

 

 

Q: Does adding an Officio Assassinorum model to my
army with the ‘Operative Requisition Sanctioned’ Stratagem
prevent the rest of my army from using Combat Doctrines?
A: Yes. Note that this model remains part of your army if
it is destroyed.

[Galron]

That answered that. Not even if the model is destroyed :( No Exodus for me

[thewarriorhunter]

I'm glad they cleared that up. I felt that's what the intent was from the start.