Fluff Question - Helbrecht Primaris rejection.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Seeing as we're obviously all dying for a fluff chat. (Only Ace won't let us have it elsewhere...) I have a question.

 

I think I know the answer to this, but I'm curious. Recently, someone commented on the BT FB group, (I know a lot of us are on there, Sete, Medj, Ace etc. so you may have seen it,) that in an early part of 8th edition, it was written that Helbrecht had initially rejected the Primaris reinforcements from the Indomitus Crusade. The source for this notion was apparently the Index? (Or maybe a PDF version of the Index???)

 

The person who made the comment was relenting that this 'fact' had been retconned in the codex and was no longer canon.

 

Now, I've read the Index cover to cover, and there is no mention in it of anything like this. Nor, do I recall there being any PDF indoces when 8th launched.

 

In addition, as far as I am aware, there are almost no major fluff references to Primaris rejection beyond the Flesh Tearers in the Devastation of Baal.

 

So... was this a thing?

[Schlitzaf]

It’s in codex space v1, Helbrecht entry. I believe

[Sword Brother Adelard]

It’s in codex space v1, Helbrecht entry. I believe

Nah, checked that. It says he accepted the reinforcements willingly, then there's that chat about him being obsessed with Ghaz, rather than protecting the Imperium.

[Marshal Vespasian]

I only read about this in discussions on here.

 

That being said: I am currently reading eternal Crusader and Helbrecht holds himself (and the chapter as a whole) WAY above other astartes. Specificly belitteling the codex as "guillimans book". So I could see him as rejecting the primaris fire reasons of pride or something like that. On the other hand I don't really see him giving up on a tactical advantage.

[Schlitzaf]

Oh I misread, no Helbrecht never rejected Primaris. What he rejected was Gulliman overtures to join his Crusade and/or return to Terra to pick up the Primaris

[redmapa]

Yeah thats a bit of a misconception, there's a bit of fluff where Guilliman goes to the Eternal Crusader and gives Helbrecht all the Primaris reinforcements which he accepts willingly but then Guilliman orders him to stop chasing Ghaz and reinforce Shrine Worlds which are under attack of the Word Bearers, Helbrecht tells Guilliman no and then Guilliman has a little chat about pride and duty and finally Helbrecht caves in and orders a bunch of Crusades to help the besieged Shrine Worlds. Its in the previous codex.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I always preferred Grimaldus' book report on the Codex Astartes, much more nuanced and grown up than just slating it as ''Guilliman's Book':

 

The Codex Astartes –at least, the Eternal Crusader’s incomplete copy of that ancient text –detailed several thousand logistical concerns in the preparation, establishment and fortification of an Adeptus Astartes firebase. Humanity did not invest so much into us in order that we should grind frontline to frontline in protracted theatres of war –that is the purview of the Imperial Guard. The Adeptus Astartes are the falling hammer, the spear to the vitals, striking and withdrawing with the force of a killing thrust to the heart. But no plan survives contact with the enemy. Fortification and digging in during extensive worldwide Crusades are a necessity of the wars we fight. While the Templars may not cling to the Codex Astartes with a tenacity bordering on worship of holy scripture, it is still the most comprehensive treatise on Space Marine warfare ever written, penned by the hand of the Emperor’s own son, Lord Guilliman of Macragge. Its value is immeasurable to any commander, no matter what divergences are found in a Chapter’s culture. It is said that no complete copies still exist in the Dark Millennium. Even the original document’s origins are shrouded in more myth than truth. No records even exist as to whether Lord Guilliman wrote the Codex by hand across several dozen tomes, dictated it to nuncio-processors and servitor scribes, or compiled it himself into a hololithic library. There it is again, of course. Ten thousand years ago, when we were not forced to rely on flawed records and fractured accounts.

 

Ironically, I always thought that Guilliman would like those words, considering he thought the dogmatic adherence to it's teachings, which developed while he slept, was a bit thick.

 

So no one has any idea where this notion of Helbrecht rejecting Primaris came from?

Edited August 31, 2019 by Brother Adelard

[JAG Templar]

I’ve definitely read the ‘Helbrecht rejecting Primaris but relenting after a little pep talk from Guilliman’ thing and pretty sure it was on this forum.

 

It now seems as it was a misunderstanding and the real argument was about how and where Helbrecht’s Crusades should be deployed, not the use of Primaris.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I've not heard it. That is, I've not heard an account I thought reliable. I've heard people defiantly state their crusades wouldn't take no damn new marines that came from Guiliman, and that surely Helbrecht, as a chapter master of a chapter that essentially uses only the codex for kindling, would reject them too etc. (this is paraphrased, but still not the most ridicilous example I can recall)

 

My point is, a lot of people throw a lot of wild statements around, or insinuate things carelessly. Unless these statements are backed up, you can usually sort them under "opinion".

 

I've heard a lot of opinion on the matter, but no actual factual statements. I'd have made notes of those if I had.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Reinhard

[Sword Brother Adelard]

That was my thinking. The source on this occasion was someone on the FB group who often holds themselves out as being some sort of BT lore 'Master', but perhaps doesn't know as much as he thinks he does...

[Schlitzaf]

Just to reiterate there is no strong reference to us ever rejecting Primaris. The closest you get is one reference in codex space marines where Gulliman recalled various chapters to say “here have Primaris”, but Helbrecht refuses to do so not to reject Primaris, but reject an interruption of His Crusades. And instead during Indomitius Crusade, Helbrecht meets up with Gulliman and Gulliman hands over Primaris, and then we have the previously reference shrine world discussion.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Agreed.

 

Aside from Gabriel Seth, noone seems to have moaned too much.

 

However, this does disappoint me somewhat. I would like to see more conflict over the issue, (not in a sense of a civil war, but more internal chapter politics.) We've seen snippets in some of the DI books, but I think it would be interesting to see more opinions on their introduction, it just doesn't feel very 40k for every chapter to take them with open arms.

[redmapa]

Here's the paragraph in question, its on the previous codex in Helbrecht's lore section.

 

 

When the Great Rift swept across the galaxy, the Black Templars fleet was badly scattered. It was as they mustered to continue Helbrecht’s single-minded pursuit of the Ork Warlord Ghazghkull that Primarch Guilliman arrived. Although High Marshal Helbrecht welcomed both the Primarch and the new Primaris Marines that joined his Chapter, there was little time for war council – and little need, in truth, for High Marshal Helbrecht knew his mind. With Chaos forces rampant and much of the Imperium isolated, Guilliman grew frustrated, but before departing he reminded Helbrecht of the blade he carried. The sword borne by High Marshal Helbrecht is a sign of office, a weapon wielded in turn by every High Marshal since Sigismund. As the tale goes, the Sword of the High Marshals was forged from the remnants of the blade of Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists Legion, from whom the Black Templars were created. According to the legend, it was Rogal Dorn who discovered the beaten body of the Emperor aboard Horus’ ship, and fulfilling his father’s last request, returned him to the Imperial Palace to be interred upon his Golden Throne. It was at that moment Dorn shattered his sword in rage at his failure to defend the Emperor of Mankind. It was Sigismund, then the First Captain of the Imperial Fists Legion, that gathered the shards, although at the time he knew not what would become of them. With the splitting of the Legions during the implementation of the Codex Astartes, Sigismund would become the Black Templars’ first High Marshal. It was then that he decreed that the Sword of the High Marshals should incorporate shards of Dorn’s weapon, forever reminding his sons of their duty. Chastised by Guilliman’s greater perspective, High Marshal Helbrecht immediately sent forth crusades to aid every Ecclesiarchal world within reach.

 

[Schlitzaf]

Red I believe there a recall reference of chapters in Indomius Crusade section to Terra, as Gulliman preps his own crusade, I cannot find my codex. Could someone confirm or deny my insanity?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I don't recall it. I always thought Guilliman preferred delivery to having people eat in.

[redmapa]

Red I believe there a recall reference of chapters in Indomius Crusade section to Terra, as Gulliman preps his own crusade, I cannot find my codex. Could someone confirm or deny my insanity?

 

Im not sure if this changed in the new codex but Guilliman did send a call for Chapters to join his Crusade, it wasnt to give them Primaris or anything like it but just to join the Indomitus Crusade that Guilliman was mustering.

 

 

On Terra, elements of the Adeptus Custodes and a contingent of the Silent Sisterhood pledged to join Guilliman’s crusade. They were not alone. Upon nearby Mars, Archmagos Dominus Belisarius Cawl had unlocked his vaults, producing from stasis the fruits of his longest labours – the Ultima Founding. To complete the full deployment of his long-prepared masterworks would take months. Cawl’s own fleet joined the Primarch, headed by his freighter-hulk, Zar-Quaesitor, a mech-ark class ship that carried within its massive hull a vast number of Primaris Marines still in stasis hibernation. The Archmagos brought with him several armies of Skitarii and Legio Cybernetica, alongside three lances of Knights from House Taranis. With warp energies flooding the galaxy, the reach of Terra’s astropathic choirs was greatly reduced, yet many loyal defenders heeded that mustering call. These included a number of Imperial Guard forces and over a score of Space Marine Chapters. None volunteered more quickly than the redoubtable Imperial Fists. To transport the Imperium’s soldiers came fully half of the Imperial Navy’s Segmentum Solar fleet. Later, en route to the Indomitus Crusade’s many destinations, more other Imperial forces joined, eager to bow their heads in respect before the living legend that was the fabled Ultramarines Primarch.

[Schlitzaf]

Yes that the reference! I believe there a BT one around there were we refused his summons and Gulliman came to us (which is then referenced in Helbrect’s Bio)

[Sete]

Helbrecth accepted the primaris no issue.

But he wasn't in the mood to listen to guilliman.

Guilliman gave him a pep talk before leaving, and he relented.

I'm starting to avoid the group because of the dumbass comments and the huge amount of whining I see there.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Sete

[Brother Sheep]

'pep talk'...

It felt more like a threat.

 

Big G. : remember your father... [Who didnt like my book either... ]

Edited September 1, 2019 by Brother Sheep

[JAG Templar]

Slightly off topic, but indulge me, please. I’m working on a ‘white’ Black Templar paint scheme for a squad of intercessors. It’s more of a hobby thing than a fluff thing but here are some possible fluff explanations:

 

- they are so new to the Crusade that they haven’t earned the right to wear black until they have proven themselves. A way of representing Primaris neophytes?

 

- they did something to dishonour themselves and have been forced to don the armour cowards until proven worthy again (haha, sorry white scars!)

 

Thoughts?

[Marshal Vespasian]

You could also do an inverted scheme and say it's a mark of honour for defeating a special foe or something like that.

 

I dislike the idea of marks of shame going around here a lot. The Fists in the heresy had an inverted (mainly black, yellow accents) for the templar brethren. Emulate that.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Slightly off topic, but indulge me, please. I’m working on a ‘white’ Black Templar paint scheme for a squad of intercessors. It’s more of a hobby thing than a fluff thing but here are some possible fluff explanations:

 

- they are so new to the Crusade that they haven’t earned the right to wear black until they have proven themselves. A way of representing Primaris neophytes?

 

- they did something to dishonour themselves and have been forced to don the armour cowards until proven worthy again (haha, sorry white scars!)

 

Thoughts?

Why not just paint them white and say they wanted to be white? If anyone asks why, just point to that random white guy with the plasma cannon on the 3rd edition cover.

 

It's the Black Templars, anything goes. This guy did his whole army in white: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/armiesonparade.com/2016/09/30/black-templars-by-peter-king/amp/

Edited September 1, 2019 by Brother Adelard

[JAG Templar]

You could also do an inverted scheme and say it's a mark of honour for defeating a special foe or something like that.

 

I dislike the idea of marks of shame going around here a lot. The Fists in the heresy had an inverted (mainly black, yellow accents) for the templar brethren. Emulate that.

Great point, cheers.

[JAG Templar]

 

Slightly off topic, but indulge me, please. I’m working on a ‘white’ Black Templar paint scheme for a squad of intercessors. It’s more of a hobby thing than a fluff thing but here are some possible fluff explanations:

 

- they are so new to the Crusade that they haven’t earned the right to wear black until they have proven themselves. A way of representing Primaris neophytes?

 

- they did something to dishonour themselves and have been forced to don the armour cowards until proven worthy again (haha, sorry white scars!)

 

Thoughts?

Why not just paint them white and say they wanted to be white? If anyone asks why, just point to that random white guy with the plasma cannon on the 3rd edition cover.

 

It's the Black Templars, anything goes. This guy did his whole army in white: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/armiesonparade.com/2016/09/30/black-templars-by-peter-king/amp/

Yeah, cool looking army too. Thanks.

[Closet Skeleton]

They could be white as an oath marking, that's probably more fitting than a mark of shame while having similar methodology.

 

There's also brotherhood markings, there was some old fluff about a squad of Templars who had red gauntlets due to fighting alongside Crimson Fists on a campaign.

 

Why not just paint them white and say they wanted to be white? If anyone asks why, just point to that random white guy with the plasma cannon on the 3rd edition cover.

It's the Black Templars, anything goes. This guy did his whole army in white: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/armiesonparade.com/2016/09/30/black-templars-by-peter-king/amp/

 

 

Its the vehicles and cloth parts that are white, the basic infantry just have white should pads.