How many CP?

[momerathe]

There are some very tasty stratagems in the new codex, and the usual 8-9 CP seems like it could be used up very quickly. That said, going for something like double-battalion is a big investment outside a dedicated infantry list, especially for primaris.

 

How are you approaching putting your detachments together?

[L30n1d4s]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think Space Marine players might start using the "Indomitable 17" instead of the old "Loyal 32" as a way to get sufficient extra CP and yet not lose Combat Doctrines:

 

HQ

-Chaplain

-Lieutenant

 

TROOPS

-5 Scouts with Bolters/Missile Launcher

-5 Scouts with Bolters/Heavy Bolter

-5 Scouts with Bolters/Heavy Bolter

 

This clocks in at just a little over 300 points (so about 15% of your army in a standard 2000 point game), gives you three Objective Secured units, a cheap Lieutenant to buff them or other units in your army, and a versatile Chaplain who can use one of the 7 different Litanies to "force-multiply" any unit in your army. Finally, the Heavy Bolters give you access to a little extra ranged support and the ability to access the "Hellfire Shell" Stratagem, while the Missile Launcher also gives you long-ranged shooting and access to the "Flak Missile" Stratagem to enable you to put additional MWs on enemy forces with the FLY key word.  

 

After you take this detachment, you are starting out with 8 CP "base".... this means you have about 1650 points and two additional detachments to fill out the remainder of your Army List... with even just another battalion and one of the Outrider/Vanguard/Spearhead, etc. detachments, you are now at 14 CP, which is quite a solid amount to play with, I think (even for the Stratagem hungry new Astartes tactics).

[Son of Sacrifice]

Hmmm, all scouts eh? The juvenile 17. The Pre-pubescent 17. The deformed head battalion.

[dice4thedicegod]

The concept has legs, even if the standard scout models don’t.

[Son of Sacrifice]

Absolutely the best way to run a dual battalion I think.

[CCE1981]

You can save a good number of points by using a Techmarine and Lieutenant.

[The Unseen]

I mean, I like Brigades.

Your bringing the HQs, Elites, and Troops already, scout bikers and attack bikes are great and cheap FA options (you can run 3 heavy bolter attack bikes for 111 pts I think) and then you've got your choice of heavies.

I like the new eliminators myself, but rapier batteries, thunderfire cannons, devastators, etc can easily fit in 3 of some of the better choices.

And I find with my BA that I still run out of CP super fast starting with 15.

[Lemondish]

Hmmm, all scouts eh? The juvenile 17. The Pre-pubescent 17. The deformed head battalion.

The concept has legs, even if the standard scout models don’t.

I love you guys

[Captain Idaho]

I found myself building a Brigade over 2 Battalions simply because you've already done the leg room.

 

Brigades require the same amount of Troops, yet 1 less HQ, whilst the army already will be built upon a core of other choices anyway.

 

Essentially I had all bar 1 Fast Attack choice running a double Battalion so I dropped the Techmarine and added the Attack Bike and boom - 15 CPs.

 

Which I burn quickly!

[PiñaColada]

If you're running pure primaris then either double battalion or a brigade can feel pretty expensive and I think ultimately what it's going to come down to for me is seeing the different buffs, and more importantly, psychic powers when my supplement drops. If the salamander psychic discipline is good enough, then I'll probably want to run two psykers and the 4 required HQs won't feel like a tax.

Also just stuff like the logistics of building the actual army matters quite a lot, when are they droppng the standalone suppressor kit? Chaos still don't have their obliterators, right? I don't want to hunt down too many ebay deals just to make an army work. But at 1500+ points I feel like 2x battalion or a brigade is almost they way you have to go with all the new stuff in the codex (with a possible exception for UM, as they have some extra ways of getting CPs)

[momerathe]

Maybe it's my propensity for building themed/skew lists, but I find it really hard to fill out a brigade. The fact I run pure-ish primaris probably doesn't help.

[PiñaColada]

Same, if you're running pure primaris some slots can be pretty difficult to fill. Even 6 troops feels like a lot, I find 4 to be the number I like to run even if I'm only required to run 3. It's doable but as of right now I'd like to avoid the tax of either those extra fast attack slots (I don't want to run that many suppressors/inceptors) or the 4th HQ.

So I share your pain, I feel like I'm in a bit of a holding pattern until I see what my dear Salamanders get in their supplement. Before the new codex this really wasn't an issue so my army hasn't been expanded to really fit either solution yet and the lack of news on upcoming releases just stings a little bit extra because of this.

[Captain Idaho]

Competitively speaking, pure Primaris armies will struggle to find their feet as the biggest competitive elements in Codex Space Marines to consider are the the following:

 

- Strong Strategums.

 

- CP generation. Transhuman Physiology alone will be 10 CP if used every turn!

 

- Utilising all Doctrines.

 

The problem Primaris will have is they can't cheaply generate CPs, therefore can't access as many Strategums whilst also having less benefit from the Doctrines either side of the Tactical Doctrine. The Devastator Doctrine alone is probably the most powerful when trading shots.

 

That's not to say Primaris only armies are weak, I think they're decidedly not. It's rather they have less options to compete and are thus rather 1 dimensional in that regard.

 

I really think GW have pushed the Codex to be a true mix between Primaris and Classic. The most deadly armies have both elements in unison.

[momerathe]

Competitively speaking, pure Primaris armies will struggle to find their feet as the biggest competitive elements in Codex Space Marines to consider are the the following:

- Strong Strategums.

- CP generation. Transhuman Physiology alone will be 10 CP if used every turn!

- Utilising all Doctrines.

The problem Primaris will have is they can't cheaply generate CPs, therefore can't access as many Strategums whilst also having less benefit from the Doctrines either side of the Tactical Doctrine. The Devastator Doctrine alone is probably the most powerful when trading shots.

That's not to say Primaris only armies are weak, I think they're decidedly not. It's rather they have less options to compete and are thus rather 1 dimensional in that regard.

I really think GW have pushed the Codex to be a true mix between Primaris and Classic. The most deadly armies have both elements in unison.

You're almost certainly right, it's just that I think old and new marines look odd standing next to each other. Same reason I won't play with models I don't like the look of unless I can do some kind of conversion. I realise this is a self-inflicted handicap :)

[Captain Idaho]

I agree. Fortunately, you can still make a decent list using just Classic or Primaris lists.