Aren't second founding Marines technically first founding?

[Trevak Dal]

So at the end of the Heresy, the remaining loyalist legions broke themselves apart (...mostly), into chapters, making the second founding.

 

But all those second founding chapters were grand companies/chapters within their parent legions, just given orders and cause to have different heraldy to the parent now chapter.

 

Now I'm sure that some second founding chapters may have been created with recovered geneseed, but from my understanding it was pretty much "okay fellas, you 1000 or so paint your armor blue, and you are now the Crimson Fists, you fellas...are just going to keep your armor painted black and all, okay Sigismund, and we will stay painted yellow and be Imperial Fists" along with other chapters using their existing markings to help set up their chapter more concretely.

 

So wouldn't the Third and consecutive foundings (generated from Geneseed tithes presumably), be new foundings and not the Second founding, which was more of a division?

[Panzer]

The chapters are all equal to eachother anyway and only the "parent" chapters having a special honourable position among them because they keep carrying the legions name.

[Closet Skeleton]

Consecutive foundings can also be divisions, see Sons of Medusa while Grey Knights were second founding but not a division.

 

Broadly the first two foundings aren't the same as the subsequent ones but numbering them that way still makes sense even if the second and first founding chapters are only differentiated in an honorific sense.

 

Black Templars weren't formed directly from the Templar Brethren or a single Imperial Fist Company, they kicked out everyone who refused to accept the codex astartes.

[Bryan Blaire]

Technically the First Founding and Second Founding occurred "at the same time" (which may have been a period of decades to century or two, since some folks had issue some with the idea): one Chapter was founded with an original Legion's identity, while the other Chapters that were split off were new Chapters (which may have been components within the Legions) and hence Second Foundings.

 

The First Founding is just an honorific showing that those Chapters bear the names of the Legions.

 

Foundings don't necessarily seem to be things that happen at one instant in time, but are rather declared at one point, but may take a similarly long period to the Second Founding to actually complete.

[Marshal Reinhard]

So at the end of the Heresy, the remaining loyalist legions broke themselves apart (...mostly), into chapters, making the second founding.

 

But all those second founding chapters were grand companies/chapters within their parent legions, just given orders and cause to have different heraldy to the parent now chapter.

 

Now I'm sure that some second founding chapters may have been created with recovered geneseed, but from my understanding it was pretty much "okay fellas, you 1000 or so paint your armor blue, and you are now the Crimson Fists, you fellas...are just going to keep your armor painted black and all, okay Sigismund, and we will stay painted yellow and be Imperial Fists" along with other chapters using their existing markings to help set up their chapter more concretely.

 

So wouldn't the Third and consecutive foundings (generated from Geneseed tithes presumably), be new foundings and not the Second founding, which was more of a division?

 

I don't see how chapters could simply spring from the ground because you plant some gene seed and water it.

 

There should always be some marines splitting off to help actually found the new chapter, veterans and leaders who can train the new recruits. Thus all founds are a division to a degree? Or do chapters lend these veterans to do this training until the chapter can self function?

[Leif Bearclaw]

Technically the First Founding and Second Founding occurred "at the same time" (which may have been a period of decades to century or two, since some folks had issue some with the idea): one Chapter was founded with an original Legion's identity, while the other Chapters that were split off were new Chapters (which may have been components within the Legions) and hence Second Foundings.

 

The First Founding is just an honorific showing that those Chapters bear the names of the Legions.

 

Foundings don't necessarily seem to be things that happen at one instant in time, but are rather declared at one point, but may take a similarly long period to the Second Founding to actually complete.

I thought the First Founding was the original founding of the 20 Legions, at the start of the Great Crusade. It just acquired the title 'First Founding' (instead of something like 'The Founding' or 'Creation of the Legions', I'd assume) name once a second one happened and differentiation was required. Just like Napoleon's Empire irl was just the 'French Empire' at the time, but is now known as the 1st French Empire, because a second one happened later on.

[Gederas]

Technically the First Founding and Second Founding occurred "at the same time" (which may have been a period of decades to century or two, since some folks had issue some with the idea): one Chapter was founded with an original Legion's identity, while the other Chapters that were split off were new Chapters (which may have been components within the Legions) and hence Second Foundings.

 

The First Founding is just an honorific showing that those Chapters bear the names of the Legions.

 

Foundings don't necessarily seem to be things that happen at one instant in time, but are rather declared at one point, but may take a similarly long period to the Second Founding to actually complete.

I thought the First Founding was the original founding of the 20 Legions, at the start of the Great Crusade. It just acquired the title 'First Founding' (instead of something like 'The Founding' or 'Creation of the Legions', I'd assume) name once a second one happened and differentiation was required. Just like Napoleon's Empire irl was just the 'French Empire' at the time, but is now known as the 1st French Empire, because a second one happened later on.

You'd be correct in thinking that Leif.

[Bryan Blaire]

I thought the First Founding was the original founding of the 20 Legions, at the start of the Great Crusade. It just acquired the title 'First Founding' (instead of something like 'The Founding' or 'Creation of the Legions', I'd assume) name once a second one happened and differentiation was required. Just like Napoleon's Empire irl was just the 'French Empire' at the time, but is now known as the 1st French Empire, because a second one happened later on.

Well, when was the Blood Angels Chapter founded? Was it founded as a Chapter when the Legion was founded, or was it simply the name of the Legion?

 

You gave the answer yourself - it likely acquired the title 'First Founding' when the second one happened because distinction was required. The Founding of the Legion gave rise to the First Founding of the Blood Angels Chapter, of course, and it doesn't actually matter if you count the Legion Founding as the time frame or not, because prior to the Second Founding, the only actual Founding that had occurred was for the Legions.

 

So the Second Founding precipitated the 'First Founding' being recognized, right? And that occurred when the Second Founding occurred.

 

So when did the First Founding of Chapters happen? Did it happen when the Legions were founded, or did it happen when the Second Founding occurred and all Legions were split into Chapters?

 

The answer you have doesn't actually matter, they are just names for things occurring.

 

For me, Chapters were officially founded at the time of the Second Founding, but are First Founding Chapters because they are the Legion inheritors.

 

Getting back to Trevak's question: the Marines in the Second Founding Chapters were likely all, or likely at least a large majority, Marines that had served in the Legion the Second Founding Chapter was split off from, but the Second Founding Chapters didn't gain distinct identity from the Legion until the Founding occurred.

 

So while there may have been an organization (Grand Company, Chapter, Wing, etc.) that was known as the "Novamarines", the Novamarines as a distinct Chapter entity that was not a part of the Ultramarines did not occur until the Second Founding.

[Marshal Reinhard]

The first founding is the founding of the legions? Does it matter they were called legions then, were bigger and had less restrictions? Does it matter they're renamed to chapters during the second founding, to fit in with the new crowd that are also called chapters?

[Closet Skeleton]

The first founding is the founding of the legions? Does it matter they were called legions then, were bigger and had less restrictions? Does it matter they're renamed to chapters during the second founding, to fit in with the new crowd that are also called chapters?

 

It doesn't matter that there were no 'chapters' in the first founding, its still a founding even if its not a 'chapter founding'. The legions weren't all founded at once but we don't know if latter foundings only include a single set of instantaneously recognised chapters either.

 

First founding chapters are essentially just second founding chapters who happened to get the legion homeworld.

 

If the chapter rolls at Adeptus Terra HQ have the initial 20 legions and then chapters get added on at every founding then first founding chapters wouldn't have been added to the roll again so they would be administratively distinct.

 

Deathwatch are counted as a Chapter despite having no permanent members (Watch Masters defacto rarely go back but in theory can) and non-Codex Chapters like the Black Templars still have the label so there's nothing about the category of Chapter that is necessarily a single thing. So a Legion can easily still be a chapter as far as the official rolls are concerned no matter what Legion fanboys want to think.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

The first founding is the founding of the legions? Does it matter they were called legions then, were bigger and had less restrictions? Does it matter they're renamed to chapters during the second founding, to fit in with the new crowd that are also called chapters?

 

It doesn't matter that there were no 'chapters' in the first founding, its still a founding even if its not a 'chapter founding'. 

 

Yeah that was kinda my point.

[Beta galactosidase]

I don't see how chapters could simply spring from the ground because you plant some gene seed and water it.

 

There should always be some marines splitting off to help actually found the new chapter, veterans and leaders who can train the new recruits. Thus all founds are a division to a degree? Or do chapters lend these veterans to do this training until the chapter can self function?

Well yes, a new chapter doesn’t just spring from the vat and go haring off by itself. It’s pretty common for there to be other chapters around. Crusades and inter-chapter training are common.

 

Chapters can probably trained by apprenticeships of the whole chapter or strike forces of it to other senior chapters, and they shouldn’t be contaminated by having actual officers transferred in from other chapters.

[Trevak Dal]

I'd figure new Chapter training probably comes from sending some worthy veterans from "close cousins" (fellow White Scars successors) guys who would be higher ranked, but there isn't a spot for them to be the first generation of vets/officers, and the Mentors are the Astartes Advisors to the Imperium.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Well, when was the Blood Angels Chapter founded? Was it founded as a Chapter when the Legion was founded, or was it simply the name of the Legion?

 

You gave the answer yourself - it likely acquired the title 'First Founding' when the second one happened because distinction was required. The Founding of the Legion gave rise to the First Founding of the Blood Angels Chapter, of course, and it doesn't actually matter if you count the Legion Founding as the time frame or not, because prior to the Second Founding, the only actual Founding that had occurred was for the Legions.

 

So the Second Founding precipitated the 'First Founding' being recognized, right? And that occurred when the Second Founding occurred.

 

So when did the First Founding of Chapters happen? Did it happen when the Legions were founded, or did it happen when the Second Founding occurred and all Legions were split into Chapters?

 

The answer you have doesn't actually matter, they are just names for things occurring.

 

For me, Chapters were officially founded at the time of the Second Founding, but are First Founding Chapters because they are the Legion inheritors.

 

Getting back to Trevak's question: the Marines in the Second Founding Chapters were likely all, or likely at least a large majority, Marines that had served in the Legion the Second Founding Chapter was split off from, but the Second Founding Chapters didn't gain distinct identity from the Legion until the Founding occurred.

 

So while there may have been an organization (Grand Company, Chapter, Wing, etc.) that was known as the "Novamarines", the Novamarines as a distinct Chapter entity that was not a part of the Ultramarines did not occur until the Second Founding.

 

You're thinking about this entirely wrong. The Blood Angels were founded before the Flesh Tearers, in a separate founding. It's really that simple.

 

Chapter or Legion is immaterial, it's a change of organisation and doctrine, that's all. The institution, and its traditions, remain. The Blood Angels have a history that includes the Great Crusade, the Flesh Tearers don't.

 

A real world analogy. The Coldstream Guards were founded as a Foot Regiment of the New Model Army in the 1600s as a single unit of 10 Companies of Pike and Musket Infantry. They then progresses to multiple independent Battalions of entirely Musket infantry as military tech and theory progressed. They were repeatedly modernised, expanded to 5 battalions in WW2, some of which were reconfigured to motorised/armoured units instead of infantry. Then post WW2 the unit was gradually shrunk back down to a single battalion, which seems to now be outfitted as 'armoured infantry'. They were also known by different names during their history. From 'Monck's Regiment of Foot' to 'The Lord General's Regiment of Foot Guards' to 'Coldstream Regiment of Foot Guards' and finally the 'Coldstream Guards'. Yet through all this, changes of name, size and military use, the unit was never 're-founded'. It's a continuous story of the same unit, the same traditions, pride and history, in continuous service since 1650. It's the same for the First Founding Chapters in 40k. One organisation, one institution, in different forms as times change, but the same entity whether Legion or Chapter.

[Bryan Blaire]

Trevak, yes, many to most of the Marines that comprised the Second Founding Chapters very likely came directly out of their Legions (and likely the pre-Chapter Legion organization of the same name that originated during the Great Crusade). Whether that makes them "First Founding" Marines, you'll have to decide on that one - Marines themselves aren't really denoted by the "Founding" they were alive in or participated in.

 

A Marine that wasn't generated until the 20th Founding isn't called a 20th Founding Marine or anything, regardless of what Chapter he's a member of.

[Skalpynock]

One could make the argument (admittedly in bad faith) that chapters such as the Nemesis were founded prior to the Ultramarines. Not that it really matters. The "First" Founding is retroactively used to describe the creation of the Legions, but even what that means is ambiguous. The First Founding listings do not mention the Storm Walkers, Revenant Legion, or Pale Nomads; they mention the Iron Hands, Blood Angels, and Raven Guard.

[Leif Bearclaw]

The "First" Founding is retroactively used to describe the creation of the Legions, but even what that means is ambiguous. The First Founding listings do not mention the Storm Walkers, Revenant Legion, or Pale Nomads; they mention the Iron Hands, Blood Angels, and Raven Guard.

 

Except it isn't really, it's very discrete. The First Founding was the creation of the original 20 Legions of Astartes. All those alternate names were unofficial nicknames IIRC (with only the Imperial Heralds/Word Bearers starting off with a name at founding in addition to 'Xth Legion'). That's akin to the 50th and 57th Regiments of Foot acquiring the nicknames "The Dirty Half-Hundred" and "The Die Hards" respectively during their service, but they were still the 50th and 57th on the army paperwork. What happened with the Astartes Legions is more akin to the changing name of the Coldstream Guards (as I've already mentioned) or The Buffs. Initially the 3rd Regiment of Foot, with 'The Buffs' (or sometimes 'The Old Buffs') as a nickname, later reforms dropped the number, changing the name of the Regiment to The Buffs (East Kent Regiment). Yet it wasn't considered a new unit, it's traditions and battle honours were retained and continued. It's the same with Astartes. The First Founding was when the organisation began, and it's the same continuity whether the unit was Legion or Chapter size, or known as the IX Legion, Revenant Legion or Blood Angels.

[Closet Skeleton]

The "First" Founding is retroactively used to describe the creation of the Legions, but even what that means is ambiguous.

 

There's no reason why the first founding should be retro-active, one can be 'first and only' after all. If the canonical second founding had never occurred then a second founding of new legions numbered 21+ could have occurred in its place. There's no reason why Primarchs should be a cap on how many legions exist, none of the Legions had a Primarch when they first started operating. Its not the reorganisation into chapters that suddenly made more foundings possible.

 

The first founding was an actual event when the first 20 legions were commissioned (the actual creation of those legions is separate from the plan to have a legion for each primarch).

[b1soul]

Pretty sure the first founding refers to the founding of the legions.

[Brother Tyler]

Pretty sure the first founding refers to the founding of the legions.

Yes, it does. In addition, the Second Founding Chapters that retained the names of their progenitor Legions are referred to as the "First Founding Chapters" (so the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, and White Scars Chapters are considered to be the "First Founding Chapters" even though the other Chapters of the Second Founding such as the Crimson Fists, Genesis, and Raptors Chapters share similar pedigrees).

 

To get back to the OP's question, individual battle-brothers aren't categorized by founding. Only the Legions/Chapters are categorized by founding. In cases where a battle-brother transfers from an existing Legion/Chapter to a newly created Chapter (the Second Founding Chapters and the Sons of the Medusa are the only ones that I know this to have happened with, though there may be some others), yes, that battle-brother will pre-date his new Chapter. That doesn't make him of an earlier founding, though, since individuals aren't categorized by founding.

[Kinstryfe]

Given the amount of hypno-indoctrination involved, I'm sure that you could launch a new chapter with nobody outside the new chapter being involved. I'm not sure it would be as effective, but a few decades attached to a Chapter friendly to the High Lords for on the job training and I could see it working.

 

I think the status of verified second founding chapters could be explored to great effect. There are a lot of chapters that claim to be second founding and I could see it being a badge of honour. "We are of the Legions of old" is a pretty big boast for an Astartes. I feel like a Chapter accepted as being from the second founding would carry a lot of prestige. Not as much as the first founding, but possibly more than your average 36th founding Chapter

[Beta galactosidase]

I'm sure that you could launch a new chapter with nobody outside the new chapter being involved. I'm not sure it would be as effective, but a few decades attached to a Chapter friendly to the High Lords for on the job training and I could see it working.

Doing that could be vastly more effective. It’s very common for chapters to attach themselves to a marine crusade, and then be at the disposal of a very senior and experienced chapter master appointed as the brigadier or Magister Militum of that crusade. They then have access to the expertise and varied perspectives of senior staff from multiple chapters. Interchapter training like that is common even for established chapters, who can request that their pilots learn from the Hawk Lords and their scouts learn from Telion. Having the input and example of senior cadres from multiple chapters is much better than relying on the one or two understudies of a senior staff who has been suggested to be appointed sole responsibility for that department of an entire new chapter.

 

It’s standard practice in an established chapter for inexperienced marines to be in reserve companies and used for less intensive, less crucial roles like secondary targets, diversionary attacks, or rearguard, and there is no reason that freshly made chapter can’t be used this same way by the Magister Militum of a crusade. In turn, the new chapter doesn’t have to exclusively rely on its own veterans, specialists, and limited specialized equipment pool to undertake high value missions or relieve crisis situations.

 

This vastly superior access to expertise allows the chapter to more closely follow the purpose of the codex reform, and not be compromised by the appointment of outside officers. For example, while forum goers talk about the Unforgiven as legion-building, it would be very irregular for Azrael of the Dark Angels to take a Dark Angel officer and appoint him as chapter master or any other officer in the Angels of Absolution. He has control over the training and chapter cult and can spend decades grooming officers. It would awful for him to be able to take the personal confidants that he’s been cultivating in his chapter for centuries and then appoint them as the captains over battle companies and battle barges of another chapter. That’s how the traitor primarchs purged their own legions in the first place.

[Medjugorje]

 

Chapter or Legion is immaterial, it's a change of organisation and doctrine, that's all. The institution, and its traditions, remain. The Blood Angels have a history that includes the Great Crusade, the Flesh Tearers don't.

 

 

 

 

I think thats very wrong. The Flash Tearers used to be Blood Angels and had the same experience and they took part in the great Crusade and the Horus Heresy - just in different colors. The history of the Flash Tearers is just more individual - but same here for the Blood Angels.

 

I think the people must understand the big difference between legion and chapter

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

Chapter or Legion is immaterial, it's a change of organisation and doctrine, that's all. The institution, and its traditions, remain. The Blood Angels have a history that includes the Great Crusade, the Flesh Tearers don't.

 

 

 

 

I think thats very wrong. The Flash Tearers used to be Blood Angels and had the same experience and they took part in the great Crusade and the Horus Heresy - just in different colors. The history of the Flash Tearers is just more individual - but same here for the Blood Angels.

 

I think the people must understand the big difference between legion and chapter

 

Sorry, but I'm not following you here. Institution history is not the same as individual history. Yes, the first Flesh Tearers fought in the GC. But they did so as Blood Angels. There were no Flesh Tearers before the second founding. The story of the Flesh Tearers as an institution starts with the 2nd Founding. The story of the Blood Angels starts with the First Founding, they weren't refounded with the 2nd founding, they were reorganised. Just like there's a massive difference between a Legion and a Chapter, there's a massive difference between a 17th Century Foot Regiment and a 21st Century armoured/light infantry regiment, yet the modern Coldstream Guards are still a continuation of the unit, history and battle honours.

 

Another historical analogue to illustrate the point. The Napoleonic era British General Rowland Hill started his career in the 38th Foot, was transferred to the 53rd, and then helped found, and eventually led, the 90th Regiment of Foot (before further promoations). Despite taking men who'd served in other units, the history of the 90th starts with it's founding in 1794, not in 1705 (founding of the 38th) or 1755 (founding of the 53rd). Just like Amit started his career in the Blood Angels, but later founded and led the Flesh Tearers.

[Brother Tyler]

That's not quite true, though. Since the Second Founding was the breaking up of the First Founding Legions into Chapters, many of the Second Founding Chapters had their basis in organizations that existed within the Legions. The Black Templars are a prime example of this concept, as are a number of the Primogenitors who have already been traced to their earlier Ultramarines Legion Chapters/Companies. Indeed, some of the Second Founding Chapters were nothing more than existing organizations with little more than new paint jobs.

Practically speaking, all of the Second Founding Chapters probably include in their history deeds that stretch back to the Horus Heresy and the Great Crusade. It's not like the Second Founding Chapters that weren't named for their parent Legions were Johnny-come-latelies. Their pedigrees and memories were just as strong as those of the Second Founding Chapters that did retain their Legion names (the so-called "First Founding Chapters"). For the Ultramarines Chapter to claim that their history stretches back to the Great Crusade while the histories of the other Primogenitors don't would be laughable. After all, the Ultramarines Chapter, Raven Guard Chapter, Blood Angels Chapter, etc., were also created as a result of the Second Founding. The only real differences were that they happened to retain the name and colors of their parent Legion, and in most cases, they kept the same homeworld and enjoyed the presence of their Primarch (for a little while, at least).