Aren't second founding Marines technically first founding?

[jaxom]

I'd figure new Chapter training probably comes from sending some worthy veterans from "close cousins" (fellow White Scars successors) guys who would be higher ranked, but there isn't a spot for them to be the first generation of vets/officers, and the Mentors are the Astartes Advisors to the Imperium.

 

 

Given the amount of hypno-indoctrination involved, I'm sure that you could launch a new chapter with nobody outside the new chapter being involved. I'm not sure it would be as effective, but a few decades attached to a Chapter friendly to the High Lords for on the job training and I could see it working.

 

I think the status of verified second founding chapters could be explored to great effect. There are a lot of chapters that claim to be second founding and I could see it being a badge of honour. "We are of the Legions of old" is a pretty big boast for an Astartes. I feel like a Chapter accepted as being from the second founding would carry a lot of prestige. Not as much as the first founding, but possibly more than your average 36th founding Chapter

 

 

 

I'm sure that you could launch a new chapter with nobody outside the new chapter being involved. I'm not sure it would be as effective, but a few decades attached to a Chapter friendly to the High Lords for on the job training and I could see it working.

Doing that could be vastly more effective. It’s very common for chapters to attach themselves to a marine crusade, and then be at the disposal of a very senior and experienced chapter master appointed as the brigadier or Magister Militum of that crusade. They then have access to the expertise and varied perspectives of senior staff from multiple chapters. Interchapter training like that is common even for established chapters, who can request that their pilots learn from the Hawk Lords and their scouts learn from Telion. Having the input and example of senior cadres from multiple chapters is much better than relying on the one or two understudies of a senior staff who has been suggested to be appointed sole responsibility for that department of an entire new chapter.

 

All of the above have been mentioned at one time or another in fluff. It basically comes down to how the Founding occurred; if it was requested by a Chapter Master or done at the will of the High Lords. Chapter Masters or councils of Chapter Masters have requested additional foundings when they recognize too many Chapters have been lost or there aren't enough to meeting rising threats. In these cases they will often split off a cadre of veterans and relics along with some gene-seed (with the majority coming from Terra/Mars). If the High Lords decree a founding then all the equip and gene-seed comes from Terra/Mars/assorted forge worlds and either training cadres are requested through diplomatic channels (with certain chapters being preferred for both gene-seed and training - for example, Guilliman+Ultramarines but not Guilliman+Mortifactors or Dorn+Crimson Fists but not Dorn+Black Templar) or a new Chapter being placed deployed to a warzone with a High Lords Approved Chapter in the area. 

[Beta galactosidase]

That isn’t in the background. It’s an accumulation of lazy message board posts as far as I know. It’s chinese whispers.

 

There are pretty definitive descriptions. The second edition codex says that the new chapters gene seeds had to be isolated from each other, and where before they had had one shared gene seed as a legion, they were now considered distinct. That means even second founding chapters wouldn’t be able to send over a stock of gene seed when another chapter was running low.

 

The description we have of a new founding is Origins of the Legiones Astartes, which predates he concept of successors. It does say that the magi pick one marine’s worth of organs and then duplicate into one thousand. That means they want uniformity within a chapter and not a hodge lodge.

 

Then that concept is notably observed in recent background, like after devastation of Baal, the successor chapters donate candidates, not geneseed or implanted novices, to restore the blood angels.

 

There are other things that notably fail to describe any cadre. In the Badab rule books a chapter is described as having assisted in the founding of many new chapters. It would have been very easy to say that they contributed founding officers, but it doesn’t. It says they helped.

 

The only place the idea does appear is in a BL short story about white scar successors published in the past six years or so and written by someone who hasn’t had much other involvement with GW.

 

There is a post on a forum by Laurie Goulding and that hasn’t been followed up on and he’s not the editor at BL anymore.

[Kinstryfe]

I have a hard time imagining too that any Astartes would be happy about being spun off into a new Chapter. A lot of them didn't like it when the Second Founding occurred specifically because to an Astartes their Chapter is usually central to their identity. Maybe a Captain being spun off as a Chapter Master could see some sort of honor in it if his personal heraldry was used, but imagine the scenario. You're nearly 800 years old and a highly respected Captain of the 3rd Company of the Emperor's Crusaders. You have helped shape the character of the Chapter with no fewer than 6 other Captains having learned under your command in the past 400 years, not to mention hundreds of green recruits of all stripes. You aspire to more, as most Astartes, and the First Captain is getting up there in years, being nearly 1200 years old. Word comes thru that you are to be reassigned, not to the vaunted heights of the First Company, but to a newly found Chapter. Everything that has identified you for the better part of a millennium, every man you call brother, will be removed from you save a small handful. Your legacy to the Emperor's Crusaders is nil. And unlike the dauntless brothers of the Deathwatch who serve a higher purpose and return to strengthen the Chapter with their knowledge, for you there will be no return. You will serve, as any Astartes would, but you will wear colours and panoply not your own but those without valor or accolade. Perhaps they are doing what is right. You can help shape a new brotherhood of Astartes, but at the cost of everything you have held dear...

[Lord_Caerolion]

And instead, you get to shape a Chapter entirely of your own. You are the founder of an entire Chapter of Adeptus Astartes, one of the most vaunted institutions in the Imperium of Man. Your actions will echo throughout history, the creation of a brotherhood of the most elite warriors the Imperium has.

[jaxom]

That isn’t in the background. It’s an accumulation of lazy message board posts as far as I know. It’s chinese whispers.

 

There are pretty definitive descriptions. The second edition codex says that the new chapters gene seeds had to be isolated from each other, and where before they had had one shared gene seed as a legion, they were now considered distinct. That means even second founding chapters wouldn’t be able to send over a stock of gene seed when another chapter was running low.

 

The description we have of a new founding is Origins of the Legiones Astartes, which predates he concept of successors. It does say that the magi pick one marine’s worth of organs and then duplicate into one thousand. That means they want uniformity within a chapter and not a hodge lodge.

 

Then that concept is notably observed in recent background, like after devastation of Baal, the successor chapters donate candidates, not geneseed or implanted novices, to restore the blood angels.

 

There are other things that notably fail to describe any cadre. In the Badab rule books a chapter is described as having assisted in the founding of many new chapters. It would have been very easy to say that they contributed founding officers, but it doesn’t. It says they helped.

 

I was thinking of Badab when referring to training cadres (marines who help establish a new chapter, but return to their own once that's done) and The Beheading is pretty explicit with Thane talking about existing chapters splitting off veterans to form the core of new chapters. Any such veterans would also establish a gene-seed line for a new chapter in addition to the new recruits with fresh gene-seed from Terra; the gene-seed tithe provides the vaults with gene-seed from all established chapters from which to pair with the veterans.

[Leif Bearclaw]

That's not quite true, though. Since the Second Founding was the breaking up of the First Founding Legions into Chapters, many of the Second Founding Chapters had their basis in organizations that existed within the Legions. The Black Templars are a prime example of this concept, as are a number of the Primogenitors who have already been traced to their earlier Ultramarines Legion Chapters/Companies. Indeed, some of the Second Founding Chapters were nothing more than existing organizations with little more than new paint jobs.

 

Practically speaking, all of the Second Founding Chapters probably include in their history deeds that stretch back to the Horus Heresy and the Great Crusade. It's not like the Second Founding Chapters that weren't named for their parent Legions were Johnny-come-latelies. Their pedigrees and memories were just as strong as those of the Second Founding Chapters that did retain their Legion names (the so-called "First Founding Chapters"). For the Ultramarines Chapter to claim that their history stretches back to the Great Crusade while the histories of the other Primogenitors don't would be laughable. After all, the Ultramarines Chapter, Raven Guard Chapter, Blood Angels Chapter, etc., were also created as a result of the Second Founding. The only real differences were that they happened to retain the name and colors of their parent Legion, and in most cases, they kept the same homeworld and enjoyed the presence of their Primarch (for a little while, at least).

It is true. Chapter/Legion distinction doesn't matter. Name and colours are extremely important to military institutions. The history of the other Primogenitors doesn't stretch back to the great crusade, because the Chapters didn't exist. Likewise, the First Founding Legions weren't refounded when they became Chapters, they were reorganised. The individual, first generation members of a 2nd Founding Chapter would have histories going back to the GC, and their deeds pre-2nd founding would still be known and celebrated, but that's individual history, not institutional.

 

Yet more examples from history to attempt to illustrate the point. The history of the United States of America starts somewhere in the region of 1775-1783, depending on whether you start the clock at the breakout of the revolution or its end. But George Washington's military career goes back to the Seven Years War, and while Americans can (and as far as I'm aware do) commemorate his actions in that war, it wasn't a war fought by the American army. Similarly Israeli soldier and politician Moshe Dayan served as part of British/Australian units in WW2, but that doesn't mean the IDF fought in WW2.

[Marshal Rohr]

There is a dichotomy between pre-Heresy marines and marines that only fought in the Heresy. Most second founding would logically have a core of officers drawn from Crusade Veterans and Heresy Veterans, but the numbers to bump them up to a thousand would be fresh blood from their new worlds.

[War Angel]

Not sure if it was said or not, but the first founding refers to the legions, but wasn’t a term used until the second founding

[Brother Tyler]

It is true. Chapter/Legion distinction doesn't matter. Name and colours are extremely important to military institutions. The history of the other Primogenitors doesn't stretch back to the great crusade, because the Chapters didn't exist. Likewise, the First Founding Legions weren't refounded when they became Chapters, they were reorganised. The individual, first generation members of a 2nd Founding Chapter would have histories going back to the GC, and their deeds pre-2nd founding would still be known and celebrated, but that's individual history, not institutional.

 

Yet more examples from history to attempt to illustrate the point. The history of the United States of America starts somewhere in the region of 1775-1783, depending on whether you start the clock at the breakout of the revolution or its end. But George Washington's military career goes back to the Seven Years War, and while Americans can (and as far as I'm aware do) commemorate his actions in that war, it wasn't a war fought by the American army. Similarly Israeli soldier and politician Moshe Dayan served as part of British/Australian units in WW2, but that doesn't mean the IDF fought in WW2.

 

You are missing the point. Technically, pedantically, yes, you are correct that the history of the Second Founding Chapters starts at their creation, during the Second Founding. However, all (with perhaps a few unidentified exceptions) can trace their histories back through the Horus Heresy and Great Crusade.

 

To draw on your example of the history of the U.S., if you look at U.S. history books and classes, they all include history that predates the official creation of the U.S.A., generally going back to the explorers and colonists that found/settled the land that would eventually become the U.S.A. (so about 300 years prior). Some that are more progressive may (should?) even go back further, looking at the indigenous peoples. Many U.S. history books even look back at the elements of the British Empire and other nations in terms of how those influenced the younger nation (the Magna Carta, for example, is of extreme significance in terms of how it influenced the younger nation's political system, whereas the history of Spain and later Mexico had a significant influence on the American Southwest). This concept applies perfectly well to the Second Founding Adeptus Astartes Chapters. For each, there was a founding date where they formally stood up as independent Chapters; but for each there was also some level of history from the time when the battle-brothers that formed the new Chapter were part of the parent Legion. And the accomplishments of organizations that became Chapters (e.g., the Aurorans probably becoming the Aurora Chapter, etc.) are rightfully included in the histories of those later Chapters. Yes, those accomplishments were part of the Ultramarines Legion and are likely also included in the histories of the Ultramarines Chapter (though the Ultramarines Chapter had no part in the event), but the Aurora Chapter has every right to claim those as part of their histories, too. Those new Chapters won't claim the accomplishments that other elements of the Ultramarines Legion performed (e.g., the Aurora Chapter won't include in its histories the Ultramarines Legion events for which the Aurorans weren't included). With the possibility that the new Chapters weren't simply created completely from discrete elements (e.g., the Aurora Chapter wasn't just composed of members of the Aurorans, likely including battle-brothers from elsewhere in the Legion), it's possible that more diverse elements of the Ultramarines Legion history may be included, even if only to highlight that battle-brother X of the Aurora Chapter was part of Battle B during the Great Crusade while a member of the Ultramarines Legion. More importantly, issues of significance to the Legion as a whole may be included in the new Chapters' histories (e.g., the betrayal at Calth). Such histories will likely be framed appropriately, ensuring that they claim things like "...during the Great Crusade, the Aurorans, 4th Chapter of the Ultramarines Legion, was part of this great battle..." so as not to claim that the Aurora Chapter performed whatever. Such an event, though, would still be part of the Chapter's history, even if it predated the Chapter.

 

In essence, there is no compartmentalization of history in that no single individual/entity/organization can lay claim to events/accomplishments. When an element of an organization moves on to become its own organization, it will rightfully include its previous events/accomplishments as part of its own history while the parent organization will do the same.

 

That's all part of the both the real world and the setting.

 

Yes, a Second Founding Chapter's formal history starts upon it's actual creation. However, it's real history predates that point in time, potentially going back to the Great Crusade.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

You are missing the point. Technically, pedantically, yes, you are correct that the history of the Second Founding Chapters starts at their creation, during the Second Founding. However, all (with perhaps a few unidentified exceptions) can trace their histories back through the Horus Heresy and Great Crusade.

 

To draw on your example of the history of the U.S., if you look at U.S. history books and classes, they all include history that predates the official creation of the U.S.A., generally going back to the explorers and colonists that found/settled the land that would eventually become the U.S.A. (so about 300 years prior). Some that are more progressive may (should?) even go back further, looking at the indigenous peoples. Many U.S. history books even look back at the elements of the British Empire and other nations in terms of how those influenced the younger nation (the Magna Carta, for example, is of extreme significance in terms of how it influenced the younger nation's political system, whereas the history of Spain and later Mexico had a significant influence on the American Southwest). This concept applies perfectly well to the Second Founding Adeptus Astartes Chapters. For each, there was a founding date where they formally stood up as independent Chapters; but for each there was also some level of history from the time when the battle-brothers that formed the new Chapter were part of the parent Legion. And the accomplishments of organizations that became Chapters (e.g., the Aurorans probably becoming the Aurora Chapter, etc.) are rightfully included in the histories of those later Chapters. Yes, those accomplishments were part of the Ultramarines Legion and are likely also included in the histories of the Ultramarines Chapter (though the Ultramarines Chapter had no part in the event), but the Aurora Chapter has every right to claim those as part of their histories, too. Those new Chapters won't claim the accomplishments that other elements of the Ultramarines Legion performed (e.g., the Aurora Chapter won't include in its histories the Ultramarines Legion events for which the Aurorans weren't included). With the possibility that the new Chapters weren't simply created completely from discrete elements (e.g., the Aurora Chapter wasn't just composed of members of the Aurorans, likely including battle-brothers from elsewhere in the Legion), it's possible that more diverse elements of the Ultramarines Legion history may be included, even if only to highlight that battle-brother X of the Aurora Chapter was part of Battle B during the Great Crusade while a member of the Ultramarines Legion. More importantly, issues of significance to the Legion as a whole may be included in the new Chapters' histories (e.g., the betrayal at Calth). Such histories will likely be framed appropriately, ensuring that they claim things like "...during the Great Crusade, the Aurorans, 4th Chapter of the Ultramarines Legion, was part of this great battle..." so as not to claim that the Aurora Chapter performed whatever. Such an event, though, would still be part of the Chapter's history, even if it predated the Chapter.

 

In essence, there is no compartmentalization of history in that no single individual/entity/organization can lay claim to events/accomplishments. When an element of an organization moves on to become its own organization, it will rightfully include its previous events/accomplishments as part of its own history while the parent organization will do the same.

 

That's all part of the both the real world and the setting.

 

Yes, a Second Founding Chapter's formal history starts upon it's actual creation. However, it's real history predates that point in time, potentially going back to the Great Crusade.

 

I don't think I am missing the point. Ultimately this is a discussion of a technical, pedantic detail. This started with me arguing against the position "The First Founding is just an honorific showing that those Chapters bear the names of the Legions". Which is incorrect. There was a first founding, in which 20 Legions of Astartes were founded. Then, a couple of very interesting (in the 'Chinese Curse' sense) centuries later there was the Second Founding, where the Legions divided into Chapters. But the institutions of the Legions ('Blood Angels', 'Ultramarines' etc.) did not restart when they were reclassified from Legion to Chapter. The Blood Angels Chapter is not a distinct military institution from the Blood Angels Legion. The Flesh Tearers are.

 

I finally found an example that ties quite closely with the phenomenon of Space Marines and foundings. The Military Order of Christ in Portugal. They were founded in the aftermath of the suppression and annihilation of the Knights Templar in 1312 because the King of Portugal liked the Templars. They appear to have been formed from a mix of surviving Templars and some members of another Portuguese military order (The Order of Aviz, themselves an offshoot of the Spanish Order of Calatrava). Despite their history (and initial membership) being inextricably tied to that of the Templars and Aviz, they were a discreet, distinct entity from both contributing orders (very important there, to save them from the fate of the Templars). Likewise, the Order of Aviz didn't refound itself just because some members left to join the new order.

[jaxom]

As far as I’m aware, the only direct coverage of the transition period so far is the Leman Russ novella. For the Space Wolves, at least, the Chapter was treated as a distinct institution from the Legion.

[Bryan Blaire]

As far as I’m aware, the only direct coverage of the transition period so far is the Leman Russ novella. For the Space Wolves, at least, the Chapter was treated as a distinct institution from the Legion.

Because a Chapter IS a distinct institution from a Legion. They aren't the same thing.

 

Yes, the one has the history of the other, as do all Second Founding Chapters, but the "First Founding" Chapters didn't exist at all until the Second Founding. All Marines were part of a Legion before that, with subdivisions internally called Chapters in some of them - in the Ultramarines Legion, a division called the Ultramarines Chapter didn't exist before, so a Chapter with that name had to be constituted out of elements of the Ultramarine Legion that was disbanded to make the Chapters, just like all Second Foundings did - the Ultramarines Chapter was selected to carry on the honor of the Ultramarine name, home world, colors, etc., but as a Chapter, not with the identity of a Legion.

 

If the Flesh Tearers, an organization we know existed within the Blood Angels Legion, doesn't count as having history before the Second Founding, then neither does the Blood Angels Chapter, an organization that didn't exist at all before the Second Founding, prior to the Second Founding, it was all just Legions. All Chapters in the Second Founding that descended from a Legion were "reorganized" day the division in the same way that the First Founding Chapter was reorganized out of the remnants of the Legion that survived the Heresy. It was the same process for all of them.

 

If an Infantry Division (let's call it the 501st ID) were to be disassembled into individual brigades (for some reason), even if one of the brigade is named the 501st Infantry Brigade, it has to be constituted in a new event as said entity (change of command/instillation of command) - it doesn't retain an identity as the 501st Infantry Division. Yes, the 501st IB has the history, and possibly even the insignia, colors and all, of the 501st IB, it is absolutely NOT the 501st ID that came before it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There was no Flesh Tearers Legion. I believe Amit (sp?) was the first one.

[Bryan Blaire]

There was no Flesh Tearers Legion. I believe Amit (sp?) was the first one.

No joke...

...

...

...

...

[Marshal Reinhard]

The legion didn't cease to exist and then the chapter began to exist. The Legion was downsized and restructured into the chapter. It already existed prior as it was still founded when the Legion was founded, hence the first founding is the founding of the Legions, and not the 2nd founding because that's when the Legion was changed and the 2nd founding chapters were founded.

 

I mean this argument is pure semantics. Do we consider the Legions as continiously existing and being changed into the first chapters, with chunks of them break of becoming other chapters with new names? Or do we consider that Legions all cease to exist completely and that the first founding chapters spring into existance for the time along the other 2nd founding chapters?

 

Well I'm afraid the answer is staring you all in the face. They're called the FIRST FOUNDING for a reason. They kept names Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, etc. for a reason. They are considered direct continuations of their respective Legions, downsized and massivle changed into chapters all the same. But they were not founded when the Legion broke up. 

 

Think of it tihs way it's only newly founded if the name they put on it is new by that point.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

If an Infantry Division (let's call it the 501st ID) were to be disassembled into individual brigades (for some reason), even if one of the brigade is named the 501st Infantry Brigade, it has to be constituted in a new event as said entity (change of command/instillation of command) - it doesn't retain an identity as the 501st Infantry Division. Yes, the 501st IB has the history, and possibly even the insignia, colors and all, of the 501st IB, it is absolutely NOT the 501st ID that came before it.

 

This is actually false. The British Army has often had the lineages, colours and battle honours of units maintained by smaller ones after the various amalgamations and downsizing over the years. The lineage of the 2nd Battalions of both the Coldstream and Grenadier Guards are maintained by Independent Companies (No 7 Company 2nd Bn and No 2 Company 2nd Bn respectively). The Black Watch are now just a Battalion in the Royal Regiment of Scotland but they retain the identity, history and battle honours from when they were an independent Regiment. The Green Howards are now 2nd Battalion, The Yorkshire Regiment (Green Howards), but retain the lineage and history of the previous unit. This process repeats across pretty much the entire British Army.

[Medjugorje]

for example - the black Templars got their Name of the Fist Templars. The First Templar was a Imperial fist - after the Secound founding there was no Templar in the Imperial fists chapter. So a few chapters took their "chapter-Name" and disconnected them from the former Legion. So the history of the Institution of the Black Templar Chapter is different from chapters they´ve been created from Administratum later...

[Bryan Blaire]

The legion didn't cease to exist and then the chapter began to exist. The Legion was downsized and restructured into the chapter...

 

do we consider that Legions all cease to exist completely and that the first founding chapters spring into existance for the time along the other 2nd founding chapters?

Well, which Legions continued to exist at the Second Founding?

 

They're called the FIRST FOUNDING for a reason. ... They are considered direct continuations of their respective Legions, downsized and massivle changed into chapters all the same. But they were not founded when the Legion broke up.

 

Think of it tihs way it's only newly founded if the name they put on it is new by that point.

I'm not disputing that the First Founding Chapters aren't very important at all, of course they are. They aren't the same instituition though and I have bolded a couple of your own statements that show why - they are considered, they are called, etc. Those are qualifiers that are used to show that something is like, but not the same as, something else. If Legions and Chapters were allowed to be the same thing, then there wouldn't be the "offense" of Legion-building.

 

Let's face it, we all know the Legions and Chapters aren't the same thing, we also all know that the Chapters didn't exist until the Second Founding. There are organizations that recorded the Foundings that didn't even exist when the Legions were founded. The First Founding Chapters may even have different Chapter numbers than their Legions were numbered. They have a recognized Founding date that stretches back to the Legion Founding, and the bureaucracy that did all that created and recorded it all at the time of the Second Founding, because that's when the Chapter was created out of the bones of the dismantled Legions. Everything for the First Founding Chapters is all retroactive back into history from the Second Founding period, because something can't exist before it existed outside of the Warp.

 

Yes, it's all semantics, and I'm not talking about what things are considered, or what happened in retroactive methods, I'm talking about when the events actually occurred. The technicalities of how these things happened have the abilities to cause wars in 40K, etc.

 

We actually know for a fact that the current Imperial Fists Chapter is not the direct continuation of the Imperial Fists Legion. The original Imperial Fist Chapter was rendered extinct in the War of the Beast, and it was reconstituted in secret from the Imperium by other Second Founding Chapters of the original Fists Legion.

 

And if something is only founded when a new name is put on it, then Reinhard, are you saying that GW lied to us about the Celestial Blades being founded twice?

 

On one occasion, two Chapters were founded with the same identical names and heraldries – the Celestial Swords. Such is the bureaucracy of the Administratum that the blunder was not realised until two centuries later, when both Chapters were wiped out by Abaddon’s Ninth Black Crusade and the bodies of nearly two thousand battle-brothers were recovered in the Cicerine System.

Sure sounds like a new Chapter can be Founded with the same identical name and heraldry... if not, their own statements are wrong, because it says that two Chapters, not just one, were Founded.

[jaxom]

The legion didn't cease to exist and then the chapter began to exist. The Legion was downsized and restructured into the chapter. It already existed prior as it was still founded when the Legion was founded, hence the first founding is the founding of the Legions, and not the 2nd founding because that's when the Legion was changed and the 2nd founding chapters were founded.

 

I mean this argument is pure semantics. Do we consider the Legions as continiously existing and being changed into the first chapters, with chunks of them break of becoming other chapters with new names? Or do we consider that Legions all cease to exist completely and that the first founding chapters spring into existance for the time along the other 2nd founding chapters?

 

Well I'm afraid the answer is staring you all in the face. They're called the FIRST FOUNDING for a reason. They kept names Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, etc. for a reason. They are considered direct continuations of their respective Legions, downsized and massivle changed into chapters all the same. But they were not founded when the Legion broke up. 

 

Think of it tihs way it's only newly founded if the name they put on it is new by that point.

 

This is why I brought up the Leman Russ novella, because the viewpoint presented in it was the latter, "that Legions all cease to exist completely and that the first founding chapters spring into existance for the time along the other 2nd founding chapters" The new Space Wolves Chapter was looked at as inheriting many of the traditions of the original Legion, but was not considered a "downsized and massivle changed" version of that original Legion. If I recall correctly (I don't have time at the moment to look for the exact quote) the events of the Second Founding were described along the lines of each Legion was broken down into chapters and one of those chapters was chosen to receive the Legion's heraldry and homeworld.

 

 

 

If an Infantry Division (let's call it the 501st ID) were to be disassembled into individual brigades (for some reason), even if one of the brigade is named the 501st Infantry Brigade, it has to be constituted in a new event as said entity (change of command/instillation of command) - it doesn't retain an identity as the 501st Infantry Division. Yes, the 501st IB has the history, and possibly even the insignia, colors and all, of the 501st IB, it is absolutely NOT the 501st ID that came before it.

 

This is actually false. The British Army has often had the lineages, colours and battle honours of units maintained by smaller ones after the various amalgamations and downsizing over the years. The lineage of the 2nd Battalions of both the Coldstream and Grenadier Guards are maintained by Independent Companies (No 7 Company 2nd Bn and No 2 Company 2nd Bn respectively). The Black Watch are now just a Battalion in the Royal Regiment of Scotland but they retain the identity, history and battle honours from when they were an independent Regiment. The Green Howards are now 2nd Battalion, The Yorkshire Regiment (Green Howards), but retain the lineage and history of the previous unit. This process repeats across pretty much the entire British Army.

 

 

We've examples similar to this in 40k within the Imperial Guard; a regiment earn glory and recorded for posterity and then get wiped out. Later on a regiment is founded, given the same name, and taught the traditions of the pre-existing regiment. It's all sort of a ship of Theseus argument except with the addition of: are there larger gaps in continuity and can tradition be considered continuous if learned second hand? For example, I'd say there's continuity between the Imperial Fist Legion and the original Imperial Fist Chapter as one directly informs the other, but there is not the same continuity between the Imperial Fist Legion and the current Imperial Fist Chapter because the latter did not have a direct transference of traditions and rites even though they have the heraldry, the name, and the Phalanx.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

Well, which Legions continued to exist at the Second Founding?

[Bryan Blaire]

 

Well, which Legions continued to exist at the Second Founding?

 

:facepalm:

Exactly. It's a :facepalm: because everyone knows that it wasn't a perfect continuation, the Legions did in fact cease to exist and the Chapters sprang from their bones. Doesn't mean one is the perfect embodiment of the other such that they are the same element.

 

If your house is forcibly taken apart by your brother and his allies in the government, but you are allowed to build a new house from 10% of the materials from the old house on the same deeded property, yes, your house has the history of the old house, it is comprised of house components, and it has the same address, but it isn't the same house.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The legion didn't cease to exist and then the chapter began to exist. The Legion was downsized and restructured into the chapter...

 

do we consider that Legions all cease to exist completely and that the first founding chapters spring into existance for the time along the other 2nd founding chapters?

Well, which Legions continued to exist at the Second Founding?

 

 

Blood Angels, Dark Angles, Raven Guard, Salamanders, White Scars, Iron Hands, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and Ultramarines. The institutions remained, which is the point you're constantly ignoring. They continued to exist, just as Chapters instead of Legions, it was an organisational change rather than an institutional change for them. Whereas the Legion Marines who went into the Second Founding Chapters experienced both an organisational and institutional change.

 

 

 

I'm not disputing that the First Founding Chapters aren't very important at all, of course they are. They aren't the same instituition though and I have bolded a couple of your own statements that show why - they are considered, they are called, etc. Those are qualifiers that are used to show that something is like, but not the same as, something else.

 

Yes they are. Again, the Coldstream Guards are considered the same unit, despite centuries of reorganisation, growth and downsizing.

 

 

And if something is only founded when a new name is put on it, then are you saying that GW lied to us about the Celestial Blades being founded twice?

 

Codex Space Marines, 2019 said

On one occasion, two Chapters were founded with the same identical names and heraldries – the Celestial Swords. Such is the bureaucracy of the Administratum that the blunder was not realised until two centuries later, when both Chapters were wiped out by Abaddon’s Ninth Black Crusade and the bodies of nearly two thousand battle-brothers were recovered in the Cicerine System.

Sure sounds like a new Chapter can be Founded with the same identical name and heraldry...

That's not a very good example, as even the text you quoted called it a blunder. Accidentality founding 2 Chapters with the same name and heraldry has nothing to do with the question of 'When did the first founding happen, and was it really the same thing as the 2nd?', which is the subject of this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If an Infantry Division (let's call it the 501st ID) were to be disassembled into individual brigades (for some reason), even if one of the brigade is named the 501st Infantry Brigade, it has to be constituted in a new event as said entity (change of command/instillation of command) - it doesn't retain an identity as the 501st Infantry Division. Yes, the 501st IB has the history, and possibly even the insignia, colors and all, of the 501st IB, it is absolutely NOT the 501st ID that came before it.

 

This is actually false. The British Army has often had the lineages, colours and battle honours of units maintained by smaller ones after the various amalgamations and downsizing over the years. The lineage of the 2nd Battalions of both the Coldstream and Grenadier Guards are maintained by Independent Companies (No 7 Company 2nd Bn and No 2 Company 2nd Bn respectively). The Black Watch are now just a Battalion in the Royal Regiment of Scotland but they retain the identity, history and battle honours from when they were an independent Regiment. The Green Howards are now 2nd Battalion, The Yorkshire Regiment (Green Howards), but retain the lineage and history of the previous unit. This process repeats across pretty much the entire British Army.

 

 

We've examples similar to this in 40k within the Imperial Guard; a regiment earn glory and recorded for posterity and then get wiped out. Later on a regiment is founded, given the same name, and taught the traditions of the pre-existing regiment. It's all sort of a ship of Theseus argument except with the addition of: are there larger gaps in continuity and can tradition be considered continuous if learned second hand?

Um, yes? All military traditions have some 'ship of theseus' elements to them, due to the institutions lasting so much longer than individuals.

 

 

For example, I'd say there's continuity between the Imperial Fist Legion and the original Imperial Fist Chapter as one directly informs the other, but there is not the same continuity between the Imperial Fist Legion and the current Imperial Fist Chapter because the latter did not have a direct transference of traditions and rites even though they have the heraldry, the name, and the Phalanx.

So when does the continuity stop (ignoring for the moment the terrible stuff the Beast Arises did to the Fists)? The current IFs are a continuation of the older IF Chapter. So if the latter was a continuation of the Legion, so must the modern incarnation.

 

 

This is why I brought up the Leman Russ novella, because the viewpoint presented in it was the latter, "that Legions all cease to exist completely and that the first founding chapters spring into existance for the time along the other 2nd founding chapters" The new Space Wolves Chapter was looked at as inheriting many of the traditions of the original Legion, but was not considered a "downsized and massivle changed" version of that original Legion. If I recall correctly (I don't have time at the moment to look for the exact quote) the events of the Second Founding were described along the lines of each Legion was broken down into chapters and one of those chapters was chosen to receive the Legion's heraldry and homeworld.

 

Haven't read that book, but that isn't how it's bourne out in the rest of the fluff. Can you provide actual quotes? Sounds more like a reaction to the massive organisational upheaval to me, more like 'the Legion we knew is gone'. Yet the Space Wolves undeniably remain.

 

The Space Wolves Chapter is a downsized and reorganised version of the VI Legion. It's blatant whenever their past is talked about. It's always 'we did X (usually 'burned Prospero')', not 'the old Legion did X'. From Battle for the Fang 'They (the Wolf Brothers) had half our fleet, half our armouries, half our Priests'. Our stuff, not 'half the Legion's stuff'. Bjorn also doesn't seem to view the Chapter as a distinct institution when he says "I was there when we burned their Heresy from the Galaxy...We are made strong by the knowledge of our fidelity. Where Tizca fell, the Aett will stand". Or Ironhelm "They have Forgotten just what we are capable of... [The Thousand Sons] hadn't been destroyed at Prospero, only crippled. That shame had hung over the Wolves for a thousand years". Even Magnus considers the Chapter and Legion fundamentally the same "You Wolves were always my father's most potent weapons".

 

Compare to how a successor talks about the Legion days (from Legion of the Damned) "[A battle plan] that was good enough to serve our ancestral brothers and parent Legion at the walls of the Imperial Palace".

 

The traditions, history and battle honours are the institution.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

Exactly. It's a because everyone knows that it wasn't a perfect continuation, the Legions did in fact cease to exist and the Chapters sprang from their bones. Doesn't mean one is the perfect embodiment of the other such that they are the same element.

 

If your house is forcibly taken apart by your brother and his allies in the government, but you are allowed to build a new house from 10% of the materials from the old house on the same deeded property, yes, your house has the history of the old house, it is comprised of house components, and it has the same address, but it isn't the same house.

 

 

It was  because I already covered that. More importantly, the lore has already answered this. That you can point out out differences between Legion and Chapter amounts to nothing. The great lore you allude to as what an overwhelming change this was to the ones involved, amounts to nothing. Cool stuff, but it's completely besides the point.

 

This hyperfocused discussion is about the semantics about what do we call the 2nd founding? Do we call it the 2nd or is it actually the 1st founding? No turns out, it's the 2nd founding. Because that's what they are called in lore and elsewhere. You may not like it, but that's what they are. Pointing out that the tiny chapter isn't recognizable to the Legion it used to be? Írrelevant. 

 

Let me stress here, this IS just semantics. It's perfectly valid to view the break up of one organisation into several smaller ones, in such a way that you see it as that the original one just ceased to exist and all the new ones are completely fresh, with just one happening to bear the name of the original. Perfectly fine. It's also valid to see when other organizations splinters off of an orginal organisation, that the original continued to exist throughout the whole process even if its changed or diminished as a result. Again perfectly fine. It's not a right or wrong question. There is also no objective measure as to when you have to go "No, stop, now its been changed too much, it doesn't count as being the old organisation anymore, its been founded anew now!"

 

However, what is a right or wrong questions, is that in this particular case it was decided already that the latter case applies. First founding chapters are direct continuations of the Legions. They are not considered to have been founded during the second founding, and we know this because we call them the First Founding as oppossed to second founding. It's a done deal. It was settled not by you nor I, but by GW, decades ago. 

 

To use your flawed house analogy, the house wasn't torn off, chunks of it were sepperated off and moved to new addresses, but leaving a much smaller intact structure behind. Yeah that doesn't make a whole lot of sense with houses. You may think it shouldn't be like that, but that's not really here nor there.

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, we know that not all the houses were just shrunk down and left in the same places... ;)

 

Yes, they are called First Founding - that happened at the time of the Second Founding. Prior to that, they were just Legions.

 

Significant difference.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Irrelevant.