Drop Pods vs. Tactical Reserves

[Warmachine90]

Greetings, Brothers.

 

With the new Errata saying that Pods ignore the Rule "Tactical Reserves" except the part to turn 3, do they ignore the part that the half of the army can set up in Reserve?

 

I ask you because of a discussion in a german forum.

 

My opionin is that Drop Pods and the units inside don't count on the number of points of units in reserve.

 

Like: In a 2000 pts game you choose 500 pts on Pods und the Units inside and the rest of the 1500 pts can split up on reserves and the battlefield.

 

What would you think?

 

(Excuse my bad grammar...i have a headache going on :( )

[Panzer]

Yes they do. You could potentially put your whole army in reserves with help of Drop Pods.

Also small correction here:

Like: In a 2000 pts game you choose 500 pts on Pods und the Units inside and the rest of the 1500 pts can split up on reserves and the battlefield.

The drop pods and whatever units embarked are still part of your 2000p army. So of your remaining 1500p you could put another 1000p into regular reserves.

[Vykes]

It's exactly how sfPanzer said, you can now set up all your army in reserve via drop pods or a combination of drop pods and the traditional Tactical Reserves rule for things like assault marines/vanguards/terminators, etc. 

 

As the guy who just finished his 6th new drop pod (having built for Luna Wolves used as a custom SM chapter in 40K), it really was a stroke of luck that finally something got better right after I got them.  Usually it's the other way around. 

[Cornishman]

Yes they do. You could potentially put your whole army in reserves with help of Drop Pods.

Actually the answer on this isn't clear... The internet as whole seems to disagree on the matter, but falls into one of two camps:

 

One goes along of the lines of: Yes you can deploy as much (or as little) as your army as you like on drop pods, and thus reserve (as the units are exempt from Tactical Reserves), and then you can deploy up to half your remainder of your army in reserve (as the units in Drop Pods are exempt from Tactical Reserves most take this to mean that such units are to be excluded from your army when determining deployment requirements).

 

The other goes along of the lines of: Whilst Drop Pods and their embarked units are exempt from the Tactical Reserves Rule, the minimum deployment requirements are determined by properties of the army (i.e. army Pts and no. of units in army) that aren't determined by the Tactical Reserve rule, and is levied upon the army, not the consistent units it. Thus, irrespective of how much (or how little) of your army is embarked on drop pods you must still deploy half your army at the start of the game as even if all the units in the army are drop pods (or embarked on them), the army (as an entity) isn’t exempt (and neither has the number of units in the army, nor the points value of that army changed).

 

edit:

 

Like: In a 2000 pts game you choose 500 pts on Pods und the Units inside and the rest of the 1500 pts can split up on reserves and the battlefield.

The drop pods and whatever units embarked are still part of your 2000p army. So of your remaining 1500p you could put another 1000p into regular reserves.

How does this work? The Tactical Reserves rules states a requirement to deploy 50% of your army, Not permission to place upto, but not greater than 50% in reserve.

[Panzer]

It's pretty clear to me. It straight out says it ignores the Tactical Reserves rule. The limit on how much of your army you can put into reserves is part of the Tactical Reserves rule and thus ignored.
However they are still part of your army though and the Tactical Reserves rule that applies to your regular reserves doesn't say "half your army minus drop pods".
 

edit:

 

Like: In a 2000 pts game you choose 500 pts on Pods und the Units inside and the rest of the 1500 pts can split up on reserves and the battlefield.

The drop pods and whatever units embarked are still part of your 2000p army. So of your remaining 1500p you could put another 1000p into regular reserves.

 

How does this work? The Tactical Reserves rules states a requirement to deploy 50% of your army, Not permission to place upto, but not greater than 50% in reserve.

 

Your army is still 2000p regardless of the Drop Pods ignoring the Tactical Reserves rule or not. Half of 2000 is 1000. Put 1000p into regular reserves. Drop Pods are 100% and completely ignoring Tactical Reserves. They are still part of your 2000p list though. You don't play a 1500p list plus Drop Pods, you play a 2000p list.

[Cornishman]

It's pretty clear to me. It straight out says it ignores the Tactical Reserves rule. The limit on how much of your army you can put into reserves is part of the Tactical Reserves rule and thus ignored.

However they are still part of your army though and the Tactical Reserves rule that applies to your regular reserves doesn't say "half your army minus drop pods".

 

I could say likewise that it's pretty clear to me it doesn't matter in determining the minimum deployment requirements how much or little of an army are drop pods or units embarked on them.

 

So Tactical Reserves...

When setting up your army during deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the battlefield during deployment (including those that are embarked aboard Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.

 

Embarking (or not) on Drop Pods doesn't change the points value of your army (the sum of the points value of all units and any reinforcements points) nor the number of units in the army. Whilst the Tactical Reserves rules uses these values the Tactical Reserves rules does not determine these properties.

 

Similarily the requirement/ restriction/ obligation would seem to be placed upon the army, not the any individual units within that army. Hence whilst you may end up with an army composed of units that, as units are free from the obligations and restrictions placed upon each unit by the rule, as the deployment requirement/ restriction is placed upon the army this does not automatically make the army free from the obligations.

 

 

 

However they are still part of your army though and the Tactical Reserves rule that applies to your regular reserves doesn't say "half your army minus drop pods".

 

Righty, you agree that everything including pods and thier embarked units are still part of your army. The Tactical Reserves rule dictates what must be deployed on the table on the table. What may go in deepstrike is what's left after meetig this requirement. So with 500 pts of Pods and embarked units outs of a 2000pts army. How do you satisfy the requirements of Tactical Reserves by only deploying 500pts? That 1000pts you've just calculated is what needs to be deployed,

 

To me a far more interesting case to figure out the rule is an army that composed of exatly 1/3 (in terms of both points and units) of a ) Drop Pods and units to be embarked on them, b ) Terminators and Jump Pack units and c ) Units that have no mechanism to be held in reserves.

 

[Claws and Effect]

Another example of poor wording on GWs part.

 

It seems pretty clear to me that the intent was the only part of the Tactical Reserves rule drop pods are meant to ignore is the restriction on coming in on turn 1.

 

But the way they worded it strongly implies that they ignore the entire rule and you can therefore put your whole list in reserve if half of it is in pods.

 

I'd rule it as they can come in turn 1 but you still have to observe the no more than 50% part of the rule.

[Waking Dreamer]

^ Pretty much how it's being played at my local gaming group as well. 

[casb1965]

Read the tactical reserves rule again, it states what must be on the table not what you can have in reserves. So in a 2000pt army half the points value must be on table, the fact that drop pods ignore the tactical reserves rule makes no difference to how much you must deploy as they are part of your army.

[Waking Dreamer]

Read the tactical reserves rule again, it states what must be on the table not what you can have in reserves. So in a 2000pt army half the points value must be on table, the fact that drop pods ignore the tactical reserves rule makes no difference to how much you must deploy as they are part of your army.

 

So in essence, in a 2k point army at the beginning of the game a minimum of 1000 points of your army must be deployed on the table, no ifs or buts about it...

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Except that a drop pod and units embarked are *excempt* from Tactical Reserves. They entirely fall outside of it, and ignore the provisions of said rules except where stated otherwise (showing up no later than turn 3). So if you have a 2000 pts army with 1300 pts tied up in pods and units that sit inside them, you effectively have a 700 pts army for Tactical Reserves.

 

EDIT: To put it another way, if you mount your entire army in drop pods, you *ignore* Tactical Reserves, nothing needs to start on the table.

[Cornishman]

Except that a drop pod and units embarked are *excempt* from Tactical Reserves. They entirely fall outside of it, and ignore the provisions of said rules except where stated otherwise (showing up no later than turn 3). So if you have a 2000 pts army with 1300 pts tied up in pods and units that sit inside them, you effectively have a 700 pts army for Tactical Reserves.

 

EDIT: To put it another way, if you mount your entire army in drop pods, you *ignore* Tactical Reserves, nothing needs to start on the table.

 

The only thing for certain is that all the units are exempt from the obligations placed on those units... Also being exempt, or ending deployment with an entire army of units that are exempt doesn’t mean the rule ceases to exist. Nor does it make your army necessarily inheriet the exemption. The deployment obligation would seem to be applied at the 'level' of your army, not on any individual specific units within it.

 

Hence why I started by stating agreement on this matter is not universal.

 

The Tactical Reserves rules is an instruction to do something ‘When setting up your army during deployment…’

Units only embark on transports when the transport is deployed. As such the minimum deployment requirements would seem to be calculated before any units are embarked… As such when the minimum requirements are calculated the units which will end up embarked are not embarked and thus must be included in this calculation…

Would you explain how the timing of Tactical Reserves operates with respect to this, both in terms of determining the requirement, and checking the adherence to it? The line of reasoning excluding drop pod and embarked units when calculating the minimum deployment requirement would seem to open more questions than answers, given that it's possible that the applicability of the Tactical Reserves rule to units will change during deployment?

Would you also please explain how the drop pods and those units which will be embarked upon them are excluded from the Tactical Reserves rule with respect to determining an effective ‘700 pts’? The wording of Tactical reserves is rather clear about being based on the size of your army (in terms of both units and points value {including reinforcement piints}). You are proposing that both some units may ignore the rules, and change how the rule operates (size of army in terms of units and points isn't determined by Tactical Reserves).

 

If Tactical Reserves was worded along the lines of

‘In a Matched play game a minimum amount of each army must be deployed before the 1st turn. Each unit contributes 0.5 to the number of units that must be so deployed, and each unit and any reinforcement points contribute ½ their values to the points value of those units to be deployed. When calculating the number of units and the points values only round after adding up the totals for the army. This check is performed once the army is deployed.’

 

Then there wouldn’t be any questions. The duty to deploy a certain amount of the army is built up by evaluating each of the constituent units of the army. Thus, with this (or similar) wording you could deploy as much as you’d like in drop pods, and deploy upto ½ the rest in deepstrike through the usual means. As the rule determines the minimum requirement by levying an obligation on each the units, and this is determined, and checked at the end of deployment then the drop pods and their embarked units would indeed be excluded from the calculation… However a) the rule isn’t constructed in such a manner and b ) how would the situation be handled where the requirements where determined prior to any units being deployed (this before any units are embarked and too become exempt)?

 

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Depoyment starts.

 

"All my units are in drop pods. Want me to point out which unit goes in what pod?"

 

You deploy your army.

 

Done.

 

Alternatively, if we have a mission with alternating deployment, I put one pod in Reserves and declares which unit is inside it, you deploy a unit (or put one in Reserves, depending), then I put another pod with unit in Reserves, repeat until done.

 

Any pod and the unit in it gives the finger to the Tactical Reserves rule. Anything *not* in a pod, has to abide by the rule. When I put a pod into Reserves, I also have the option of putting a unit inside it. If I decide *not* to put a unit into a pod, I might change the calculation on number of units I can use under Tactical Reserves. But once again, the pods and units in them do not matter.

 

So returning to the 2k army again, the 1300 pts of pod and units inside simply do not exist as far as Tactical Reserves is concerned. Once inside a pod, they no longer matter. And they join the pod (or not, as the case may be) when the pod is set up in Reserves. Once again returning to the 2k list, I might decide to put 1000 pts of pod and units into reserves. Those units outside the pod are bound by Tactical Reserves. Or I might set up just the pods, say 600 pts, in Reserves. The remaining 1400 pts have to abide by Tactical Reserves.

 

This isn't hard, and the wording is very clear. Yes, Tactical Reserves demands you put half your army on the table. But pods (and, once again, units in them) ignore that rule. Like how Assault weapons allow you to fire when you've Advanced. The rules say you can't do that, but Assault weapons have an exception written into them.

[Cornishman]

Depoyment starts.

 

"All my units are in drop pods. Want me to point out which unit goes in what pod?"

 

You deploy your army.

 

Done.

 

I am interested in how al the units are embarked before any of the transports are deployed. As per the rules units may embark on a transport when the transport is deployed.

 

As I have pointed out, as the Tactical Reserves is a an instruction to do something, so this would appear to take place prior to any models being deployed. Hence at the time the deployment calculation would appear to be determined all those units (intended to be deployed in the drop pods) are yet to be embarked.

 

So what is the sequencing of the rules in terms of determing the minimum requirement and adherence to it?

 

So returning to the 2k army again, the 1300 pts of pod and units inside simply do not exist as far as Tactical Reserves is concerned. Once inside a pod, they no longer matter. And they join the pod (or not, as the case may be) when the pod is set up in Reserves. Once again returning to the 2k list, I might decide to put 1000 pts of pod and units into reserves. Those units outside the pod are bound by Tactical Reserves. Or I might set up just the pods, say 600 pts, in Reserves. The remaining 1400 pts have to abide by Tactical Reserves.

 

 

 

 

How? The Tactical Reserves Rules states (to paraphrase) 1/2 your army, no ifs, no buts. There are units that unquestionably this rule does apply to, so why are you determining a deployment requirement based an an 'effective army size'. The calculation of an 'effective army size', and the use of that is clearly a step that we are not instructed to take.

 

[casb1965]

Except that a drop pod and units embarked are *excempt* from Tactical Reserves. They entirely fall outside of it, and ignore the provisions of said rules except where stated otherwise (showing up no later than turn 3). So if you have a 2000 pts army with 1300 pts tied up in pods and units that sit inside them, you effectively have a 700 pts army for Tactical Reserves.

 

EDIT: To put it another way, if you mount your entire army in drop pods, you *ignore* Tactical Reserves, nothing needs to start on the table.

 

Being exempt from the rule doesn't change the rule.

 

Army size = 2000pts

Tactical reserves state 1/2 army must be on the table 

Drop pods ignore tactical resrves rule OK that is fine

How much must be put on table?

1/2 your army

What is half your army? 1000pts or 1/2(2000-drop pods)?

Well the drop pods are in your army so 1000 pts of your army must be on table.

[casb1965]

 

 

How? The Tactical Reserves Rules states (to paraphrase) 1/2 your army, no ifs, no buts. There are units that unquestionably this rule does apply to, so why are you determining a deployment requirement based an an 'effective army size'. The calculation of an 'effective army size', and the use of that is clearly a step that we are not instructed to take.

 

 

 

Are you sure? If you play a 2000pt game haven't you already calculated the effective army size as 2000pts (or 1998 ot 1989 etc)?

[Cornishman]

 

 

 

How? The Tactical Reserves Rules states (to paraphrase) 1/2 your army, no ifs, no buts. There are units that unquestionably this rule does apply to, so why are you determining a deployment requirement based an an 'effective army size'. The calculation of an 'effective army size', and the use of that is clearly a step that we are not instructed to take.

 

 

 

Are you sure? If you play a 2000pt game haven't you already calculated the effective army size as 2000pts (or 1998 ot 1989 etc)?

 

Nope, the points limit simply sets the maximum value for your army size, the size of an army is determined by the actual properties of the army.

If an army consists of 13 units with a value 1997 pts then whilst a 2k game the army size is 1997 pts. So 1/2 the army is 6.5 units and 998.5 pts.

 

[casb1965]

That's why I parenthesised the other figures to show that it isn't exactly 2000pts.

 

My argument is it isn't 2000 or 1998 or 1987 less the drop pods.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

The pods have a very clear rule, one that doesn't just stop working or change meaning just because you two insist that the rule can't say what the rule says because then some other rule suddenly wouldn't work the way you want it to work. You don't like the idea of pod armies, we get it. But either pods *and* units in them ignore Tactical Reserves or they don't. And both of you insist that they don't, despite the rule stating clearly that they *do*.

[BluejayJunior]

Let me rephrase Ezra's argument, if I may. Drop pods and their contents ignore the tactical reserves rule. Therefore, they do not count as being in reserve and essentially count towards the half of your army on the table.

The important thing is that they ignore the rule. You can't apply a rule to something that ignores it.

 

Now, personally, I don't think it is meant to allow a fully drop pod army that starts off the table. But it's not a hard argument to make that RAW, it is allowed by the rules. 

[Cornishman]

There really isn't anything to be gained arguing with you two. You're both deliberately being obtuse for giggles. At this point I'd need crayons to get to you. .

 

Erm, I don't see how this is helpful.

 

 

The pods have a very clear rule, one that doesn't just stop working or change meaning just because you two insist that the rule can't say what the rule says because then some other rule suddenly wouldn't work the way you want it to work. You don't like the idea of pod armies, we get it. But either pods *and* units in them ignore Tactical Reserves or they don't. And both of you insist that they don't, despite the rule stating clearly that they *do*.

 

Having played 40k since the days when marines could take shuriken catapults autoguns etc... I think that Drop Pod armies very much fit in with the theme of Marines, and have nothing against them.

 

Drop Pods and their embarked units are exempt from ‘Tactical Reserve’ (i.e. free from the obligations or restrictions placed upon them by this rule) they do not 'ignore'. There is a subtle difference.

The assertion I am a proponent of is that the obligation and requirement is placed on, and must be meet by the army. Hence units being exempt does not affect the operation of this element of the rule.

The minimum deployment requirement refers to Army Size, it is not based on a levy/ tax directly placed upon each unit witihin that army. Similarly, it doesn't it specify which units must be deployed to meet the requirement. So the deployment requirements would not appear to be based on an aggregated obligation levied upon the units within the army, nor does it target specific units to meet the obligation.

If I am mistaken it should be possible to explain the timing issues, or where my error(s) are (as stated in my initial post I am aware opinion on this this matter is very divided)...

Tactical Reserves appears to determine the deployment requirement prior to any models being deployed - it is an instruction to do something. At this point what you determine what you must do.

 

Thus at the time that the requirements are determined only the drop pods are exempt from Tactical Reserves (units embark onto transports when the transport deploys).

 

During deployments units may embark on units so too become exempt.

 

So how do you handle this situation?

 

What is the logic by which you resolve the above questions to get to the place where any and all drop pods and their embarked units may be placed in reserve, and where upto ½ of what’s left may also be held in reserves?

[Cornishman]

Let me rephrase Ezra's argument, if I may. Drop pods and their contents ignore the tactical reserves rule. Therefore, they do not count as being in reserve and essentially count towards the half of your army on the table.

The important thing is that they ignore the rule. You can't apply a rule to something that ignores it.

 

Now, personally, I don't think it is meant to allow a fully drop pod army that starts off the table. But it's not a hard argument to make that RAW, it is allowed by the rules. 

But the rule is not you are allowed a maximum of 1/2 your army in deepstrike (and Drop Pods don't count towards the limit). The rule is a requirement to deploy at least 1/2 your army, which creates a practical limit of upto 1/2 your army in deepstrike.

The rule, and adherence to it, is based on what is deploy, not what you don't.

[Brother Casman]

Let's see if I follow the logic correctly: a 2000 point army would have to have at least 1000 points and at least one half of the total units deployed on the table. We can ignore situations where our drop pods and other reserves are less than half (or exactly equal to half), because in that case, we adhere to the Tactical Reserves rule regardless of what we have. So, if we consider an army where 1300 points are deployed via drop pods, and the remaining 700 points are not, then in the process of deploying our army once we've put 1000 points into Tactical Reserves (which are all in drop pods), we have to look at our remaining 1000 points. 700 points can deploy on the table, and by the Tactical Reserves rule, must do so. The remaining 300 points (a drop pod and a unit, let's say) can be deployed in reserve because they're exempted from the Tactical Reserves rule - they're free from the obligation to start on the table. This would suggest that the drop pods would "take priority" over other reservists, I think - you couldn't deploy a terminator squad in reserve alongside all the drop pods, if you wouldn't have anything on the table. That said, an army all mounted in drop pods could start entirely in reserve, since they get freed from the restriction of starting on the table when the units mount up.

[Claws and Effect]

So in essence what you're saying is that if you put your entire army in drop pods you can start the game with nothing at all on the table?

 

That would give you a massively unfair advantage in missions where victory points are scored by killing units. If your opponent gets the first turn, they now have a whole turn in which it is impossible to score points.

 

It is pretty clear to me that the drop pod rule is in no way meant to get around the requirement of having half your army deployed on the table.

 

They aren't going to get rid of turn 1 deep strike and apply limits on how much can be put into reserve just to turn around and nullify those changes later.

 

If you really want to be that nit picky about it and insist that drop pods are exempt from the half your army part of the rule, fine. But the only points that could possibly be exempt from it are the points for the drop pods themselves. Any units you put inside them will still count toward the half your army limit. Because drop pods ignoring a rule doesn't mean a Devastator squad does.

[BluejayJunior]

If you really want to be that nit picky about it and insist that drop pods are exempt from the half your army part of the rule, fine. But the only points that could possibly be exempt from it are the points for the drop pods themselves. Any units you put inside them will still count toward the half your army limit. Because drop pods ignoring a rule doesn't mean a Devastator squad does.

 

The rule for drop pods says that "this model and any embarked aboard it are exempt from the Tactical Reserves matched play rule"

 

I agree that I don't think the purpose of the rule is to be able to have an army that starts off the board. But I get how you can look at the rule and make that conclusion.