What Traitor Primarch could have won the HH?

[Vykes]

 

(CLIP)

Horus didn't keep it together though.  Angron did what he wanted as did Fulgrim, when Fulgrim became a daemon prince Horus could no longer control him at all, admitted it to Mortarion, saying he couldn't control him or rely on him anymore.  Even at the siege of Terror the III legion went off to sate their appetites killing the populace.  Alpharius nor Cruze could be heeled, even Lorgar did what he wanted, Horus wanted Sanguinius turned but Lorgar said that would never happen and went to Nuceria and told Erebus not to try and make that happen. After Molech Horus couldn't even count of Perty, he said he could only count on Mortarion.  That is why he tried so badly to get Loken to turn on Molech, he knew all he had were broken souls.

 

Horus had his problems as far back as during Warmaster where he confessed that.  However, as Bung mentioned, Vengeful Spirit shows the distinct difference between a rebellion with and without Horus Lupercal.  In the absence of the Warmaster, everything basically collapses and fragments like a pane of glass falling from the 97th story onto pavement.  His own legion was cracking apart when he wasn't there. by the time the corruption took root, no primarch could control the traitors.  

 

It's a miracle that he held it together as well as he did, and Horus Lupercal was the only one who even had the potential to do so.  And... I don't recall Horus 'wanting' sanguinius turned, he knew that was impossible.  Lorgar and Erebus wanted Sanguinius turned at Signus, and Horus said 'It's a waste'.  

 

I really think you're underselling Horus's qualities. 

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

(CLIP)

Horus didn't keep it together though.  Angron did what he wanted as did Fulgrim, when Fulgrim became a daemon prince Horus could no longer control him at all, admitted it to Mortarion, saying he couldn't control him or rely on him anymore.  Even at the siege of Terror the III legion went off to sate their appetites killing the populace.  Alpharius nor Cruze could be heeled, even Lorgar did what he wanted, Horus wanted Sanguinius turned but Lorgar said that would never happen and went to Nuceria and told Erebus not to try and make that happen. After Molech Horus couldn't even count of Perty, he said he could only count on Mortarion.  That is why he tried so badly to get Loken to turn on Molech, he knew all he had were broken souls.

 

Horus had his problems as far back as during Warmaster where he confessed that.  However, as Bung mentioned, Vengeful Spirit shows the distinct difference between a rebellion with and without Horus Lupercal.  In the absence of the Warmaster, everything basically collapses and fragments like a pane of glass falling from the 97th story onto pavement.  His own legion was cracking apart when he wasn't there. by the time the corruption took root, no primarch could control the traitors.  

 

It's a miracle that he held it together as well as he did, and Horus Lupercal was the only one who even had the potential to do so.  And... I don't recall Horus 'wanting' sanguinius turned, he knew that was impossible.  Lorgar and Erebus wanted Sanguinius turned at Signus, and Horus said 'It's a waste'.  

 

I really think you're underselling Horus's qualities. 

 

I don't know what you are arguing about.  I said that Horus couldn't keep them together and you are giving me reasons for why that is true.  He only kept it together up until Isstvan 5, still not being able to manage Angron, Cruze went off on his own, doing whatever he wanted, as did Fulgrim and the Alpharius which Horus had no ability to control but we can forget that as he had ulterior motives, Molech was the last time he had any cohesion with his brothers or their legion and that was just Fulgrim and Mortarion, its an astonishment of ineptitude that he was only able to control them for such a little time, the Heresy was only like 7 years, he could only keep things together for a few years.

 

It was Horus who sent Sangunius to Signus Prime...  It was only Lorgar who knew it was next to impossible.

 

I'm not underselling Horus at all, he was a military genius but he was also incredibly flawed, but not only that, he lost all his greatest traits after Molech, he lost his ability to be jovial and charismatic which were so integral to him being a great leader and being able to lead so well, mortarion even notices that he never smiles anymore and his eyes were dead, he lost the ability, I believe if he was himself like the days of the Luna Wolves he would have done so much better, granted he wouldn't have the powers he got a Molech to be able to lay the Emperor low, but he would have been so much more successful in leading the Heresy.   

Edited September 9, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[bluntblade]

This is really more due to the nature of those Primarchs which took his side than Horus' failures. Whatever his flaws, there's no one among the Eighteen I can imagine reining Angron in to the same extent.

[Bung]

 

 

 

The problem was, with renouncing their loyality of the Emperor, the traitors lost anything that kept them together. 

There was simply noone filling the hole even Horus couldnt do it and if you dont have anything to be loyal, everything goes down and everyone keeps fighting for themself.

Its something proven by human history already.

That's not true at all, there have been very many rebellions that have won and replaced the old order, throughout history.  

 

 

Yes, but what keeps Horus rebellion together? Simple. Its Horus with his personality and the vows of loyality to him and not to a greater ideal.

I think the best novel to show that problems is Slaves to Darkness when Horus isnt able to lead and Maloghurst tries to keep it all together.

No other Primarch would have the respect and personality to keep it together and going, as all were going after their own goals and didnt trust each other much.

All of them had to much or to big flaws in their personality. Most of them rueld alot through fear and that insoires no loyality. 

 

Horus didn't keep it together though.  Angron did what he wanted as did Fulgrim, when Fulgrim became a daemon prince Horus could no longer control him at all, admitted it to Mortarion, saying he couldn't control him or rely on him anymore.  Even at the siege of Terror the III legion went off to sate their appetites killing the populace.  Alpharius nor Cruze could be heeled, even Lorgar did what he wanted, Horus wanted Sanguinius turned but Lorgar said that would never happen and went to Nuceria and told Erebus not to try and make that happen. After Molech Horus couldn't even count of Perty, he said he could only count on Mortarion.  That is why he tried so badly to get Loken to turn on Molech, he knew all he had were broken souls.

 

 

Thats a rather human problem, once you go traitor there is no reason for being loyal to anyone.

But my answer was more to the OP, as he asked which traitor primarch could have pulled of the same thing. and there is simply none with at least a spark of Horus Leadership.

[Indefragable]

I think any Primarch was fully capable of taking down the Imperium. I mean, that’s what makes them Primarchs, after all. Even Curze (well, at least before he went proto-renegade pre-Istvaan) and Angron. The very nature of the Great Crusade was one of knocking over millennia-old Star empires like they were dominoes and so to turn forces inward and take on the Imperium would simply have been a matter of scale. With enough time and resources, any Primarch could have defeated the Imperium. They were al fully capable of it.

 

Now, that baseline being established, here are the variables that would have made the above vastly more difficult for them:

 

A. The Emperor himself. Even after all this time, we have little indication of his own capabilities, whether 1:1 fighting or commanding an army. I think it’s obvious to say “pretty damn good” for a thousand reasons, but my point is that the (not so?) secret strength of the nascent Imperium is the fact that it’s head of state is also probably its single strongest (literal) asset.

 

B. Other Primarchs. Again, like A, this is a variable to complex to solve for. The matchups between anyone of the 18 is mind boggling and that’s regardless of whether you consider 1:1 or generals on campaign against each other. In the end, I think most matchups would come out far more even than one would think, with (relative) lack of command skill compensated for by (relative) superiority in individual arms. And if individual prowess was a Primarch’s edge, then you know they darn well have the capacity to put that edge into action when needed.

 

The scenario I think of here is the Night of the Wolf when Russ tries to teach Angron a lesson.

The 2 Legions go at it, with Angron finding his way to a duel with Russ. Angron then “beats” Russ where Russ reveals that it was a essentially a trap to get Angron out of position so that the VI could outmaneuver the XII for the win.

 

Angron is basically like “I don’t care I beat you 1:1,” to which Russ is like “yea, but that’s not the point...” to which Angron is like “no, that is the point! I beat you and that’s all that matters!”

 

I think the above is illustrative for this conversation since, yes, Russ strategically won, where he may have died to Angron’s blade so that his Legion would win the day, but would whoever assumed command of the VI be able to outplay Angron? The easy answer is “yes” but I think it’s more complex than that. Secondly, Angron’s point is that the XII doesn’t need fancy plans or even a Primarch because they’ve become brutally efficient in their simplicity. You can’t outhink a hammer; so long as the metal head is attached to the wooden handle, it’s going to do its job.

 

C. Differing styles.

This to me is the real kicker. I think Mortarion could have overthrown the Imperium....so long as he had enough rad munitions. Khan could have overthrown the Imperium...so long as he had enough space to maneuver. I’m exaggerating a bit, but the point is that many of the Primarchs had a certain style, for lack of better way of putting it, and changing their ways when they couldn’t bring their style to bear would have been tricky. They all did it at certain points, of course (Book 8 specifically mentions a few times the V had to dig trenches and pull out artillery), but as a sustained, Galaxy-wide campaign, would they have been able to adapt frequently enough?

Going hand in hand with that, would they be able to make the most out of different styles of warfare at their disposal? Would they bend their own ways to accommodate more specialized (or less specialized) assets? Or would they force those others to conform to theirs?

 

D. Charisma

There is a real world anecdote about how Eisenhower wasn’t the best General, but he was able to get others to listen to him and “sell” his vision to other more forceful personalities. That is partly why was made Supreme Allied Commander in WWII. Compare to MacArthur who was a helluva force on the battlefield, but was borderline toxic in the boardroom to the point that the South Pacific was made its own theater simply to keep others away from him.

 

Another real world example would be how Tesla’s product was far superior to Edison’s, yet Edison had the sales skills to make his the one everyone wanted.

 

Put C+D together and It pretty much shows how almost anyone other than Horus would have really struggled to have a rebellion be anything more than symbolic in nature.

 

What I personally find interesting is how the “military” phase of the rebellion goes pretty well, all things considered, but then when the “corruption” phase sets in, that’s when the traitors start fragmenting and effectiveness drops. To me, that only highlights just how cool (for lack of a better word) Horus is as a leader that he is able to keep things on track despite the severe degradation of his assets.

[Jackalwolf]

No one on the traitor side could even come close. Remember Horus would be on the other side then.

 

Even if you take him off the picture most of the others lacked the strength to not become just a pawn of the dark gods.

 

To do as well as Horus your needs are:

- Respected by the other primarchs to the point they're willing to follow him, this can only be done by being a senior primarch and by having a great legion track record

- Tactical genius

- Iron will to resist becoming just a pawn

 

Looking at the rest of the bunch:

- Perturabo and Mortarion wouldn't have the charisma or even will to convince others to follow them

- Angron and Curzr are.. well, Angron and Curze

- Lorgar is considered a bit of a joke by his brothers, they would never defer to him

- Alpharius is considered a rookie primarch, definitely not a senior figure amongst them

- Magnus and Fulgrim probably get the closest but both proved to be just pawns of the gods and didn't have enough of a compliance track record

 

As many have pointed the only replacements would be in the loyalist side:

- Sanguinius is the obvious choice since he fits the bill to the point Horus wanted him dead rather than in the side of Chaos because he saw him as the better choice for Warmaster first and rebel leader later

- Guilliman is a close second. He might struggle with charisma but definitely has a good shot. I bet the outlook of traitor legions would be completely different as he'd be speaking to a very different followership

- The Lion, Dorn and Ferrus are certainly senior but lack the charisma or even the savvy and disposition of big G to deal with others

- The Khan and Corax wouldn't have the slightest interest in leading others and were seen as outliers

- Russ was actively disliked by his brothers for his legion role

- Vulkan didn't have the track record but honestly might be the darkest of the horses

 

A mouth watering thought is imagining Horus, Sanguinius and Russ speartiping the hell out of the rebels in Istvan V. They would all be dead before any reinforcements would arrive.

[TorvaldTheMild]

No one on the traitor side could even come close. Remember Horus would be on the other side then.

 

Even if you take him off the picture most of the others lacked the strength to not become just a pawn of the dark gods.

 

To do as well as Horus your needs are:

- Respected by the other primarchs to the point they're willing to follow him, this can only be done by being a senior primarch and by having a great legion track record

- Tactical genius

- Iron will to resist becoming just a pawn

 

Looking at the rest of the bunch:

- Perturabo and Mortarion wouldn't have the charisma or even will to convince others to follow them

- Angron and Curzr are.. well, Angron and Curze

- Lorgar is considered a bit of a joke by his brothers, they would never defer to him

- Alpharius is considered a rookie primarch, definitely not a senior figure amongst them

- Magnus and Fulgrim probably get the closest but both proved to be just pawns of the gods and didn't have enough of a compliance track record

 

As many have pointed the only replacements would be in the loyalist side:

- Sanguinius is the obvious choice since he fits the bill to the point Horus wanted him dead rather than in the side of Chaos because he saw him as the better choice for Warmaster first and rebel leader later

- Guilliman is a close second. He might struggle with charisma but definitely has a good shot. I bet the outlook of traitor legions would be completely different as he'd be speaking to a very different followership

- The Lion, Dorn and Ferrus are certainly senior but lack the charisma or even the savvy and disposition of big G to deal with others

- The Khan and Corax wouldn't have the slightest interest in leading others and were seen as outliers

- Russ was actively disliked by his brothers for his legion role

- Vulkan didn't have the track record but honestly might be the darkest of the horses

 

A mouth watering thought is imagining Horus, Sanguinius and Russ speartiping the hell out of the rebels in Istvan V. They would all be dead before any reinforcements would arrive.

Perty had no charisma, but Horus didn't either after Molech and that lack of charisma had repercussions.  The Gods would have chosen another to lead that is indisputable really, someone would have ended up leading even if it came to them fighting it out one on one.  After one was chosen all that would matter is their skills at warfare which Perty would have been able to to great at, Lorgar became a different person after he went into the Eye he could easily have lead and 'made' the others follow him.  After Isstavan 5 all the traitor Primarchs got together and Lorgar blasted them all with his sorcery even knocking Angron and Fulgrim across the room, he was respected for his power and leadership after that.  People keep calling him weak and a coward and he was but people that continue to say that just haven't read the lore, he beat the breaks off Ann'grath and took down a warhound titan and took 2 blasts of another ones plasma blastgun to save Angron, he was a beast after the eye.  The only problem I see with Lorgar isn't his abilities its the fact he was so pius when it came to the gods which is a problem with the Primarchs like Mortarion who absolutely distrusted the gods.  I don't see a problem with a lot of the traitor Primarchs abilities, the biggest problem is getting the Primarchs to turn traitor, which without Horus would be extremely hard.

I think any Primarch was fully capable of taking down the Imperium. I mean, that’s what makes them Primarchs, after all. Even Curze (well, at least before he went proto-renegade pre-Istvaan) and Angron. The very nature of the Great Crusade was one of knocking over millennia-old Star empires like they were dominoes and so to turn forces inward and take on the Imperium would simply have been a matter of scale. With enough time and resources, any Primarch could have defeated the Imperium. They were al fully capable of it.

 

Now, that baseline being established, here are the variables that would have made the above vastly more difficult for them:

 

A. The Emperor himself. Even after all this time, we have little indication of his own capabilities, whether 1:1 fighting or commanding an army. I think it’s obvious to say “pretty damn good” for a thousand reasons, but my point is that the (not so?) secret strength of the nascent Imperium is the fact that it’s head of state is also probably its single strongest (literal) asset.

 

B. Other Primarchs. Again, like A, this is a variable to complex to solve for. The matchups between anyone of the 18 is mind boggling and that’s regardless of whether you consider 1:1 or generals on campaign against each other. In the end, I think most matchups would come out far more even than one would think, with (relative) lack of command skill compensated for by (relative) superiority in individual arms. And if individual prowess was a Primarch’s edge, then you know they darn well have the capacity to put that edge into action when needed.

 

The scenario I think of here is the Night of the Wolf when Russ tries to teach Angron a lesson.

The 2 Legions go at it, with Angron finding his way to a duel with Russ. Angron then “beats” Russ where Russ reveals that it was a essentially a trap to get Angron out of position so that the VI could outmaneuver the XII for the win.

 

Angron is basically like “I don’t care I beat you 1:1,” to which Russ is like “yea, but that’s not the point...” to which Angron is like “no, that is the point! I beat you and that’s all that matters!”

 

I think the above is illustrative for this conversation since, yes, Russ strategically won, where he may have died to Angron’s blade so that his Legion would win the day, but would whoever assumed command of the VI be able to outplay Angron? The easy answer is “yes” but I think it’s more complex than that. Secondly, Angron’s point is that the XII doesn’t need fancy plans or even a Primarch because they’ve become brutally efficient in their simplicity. You can’t outhink a hammer; so long as the metal head is attached to the wooden handle, it’s going to do its job.

 

C. Differing styles.

This to me is the real kicker. I think Mortarion could have overthrown the Imperium....so long as he had enough rad munitions. Khan could have overthrown the Imperium...so long as he had enough space to maneuver. I’m exaggerating a bit, but the point is that many of the Primarchs had a certain style, for lack of better way of putting it, and changing their ways when they couldn’t bring their style to bear would have been tricky. They all did it at certain points, of course (Book 8 specifically mentions a few times the V had to dig trenches and pull out artillery), but as a sustained, Galaxy-wide campaign, would they have been able to adapt frequently enough?

Going hand in hand with that, would they be able to make the most out of different styles of warfare at their disposal? Would they bend their own ways to accommodate more specialized (or less specialized) assets? Or would they force those others to conform to theirs?

 

D. Charisma

There is a real world anecdote about how Eisenhower wasn’t the best General, but he was able to get others to listen to him and “sell” his vision to other more forceful personalities. That is partly why was made Supreme Allied Commander in WWII. Compare to MacArthur who was a helluva force on the battlefield, but was borderline toxic in the boardroom to the point that the South Pacific was made its own theater simply to keep others away from him.

 

Another real world example would be how Tesla’s product was far superior to Edison’s, yet Edison had the sales skills to make his the one everyone wanted.

 

Put C+D together and It pretty much shows how almost anyone other than Horus would have really struggled to have a rebellion be anything more than symbolic in nature.

 

What I personally find interesting is how the “military” phase of the rebellion goes pretty well, all things considered, but then when the “corruption” phase sets in, that’s when the traitors start fragmenting and effectiveness drops. To me, that only highlights just how cool (for lack of a better word) Horus is as a leader that he is able to keep things on track despite the severe degradation of his assets.

Angron just didn't care about beating the wolves in a way that would see them come out alive.  Angron would have happily died after he beat the breaks off Russ.

[Jackalwolf]

The issue is that the hardest step to take is the first one. After Istvann there was just no way back, that's why Istvann III played how it did, to ensure the Rubicon was crossed.

 

Lorgar would never get any followership to do that first step. Only his demonic powers bring him up to par and demonstrating them before any commitment was taken would freak out the others.

 

Also even after his Ascension, the last we've seen about him in the books is him running away tail between the legs after trying a coup against Lupercal. Despite all he'd always be the weak brother to egos such as those of Horus, Mortarion and Perturabo.

[Papy carni]

Perty: I honestly think he could have, if he could reach Terra, He was a great military mind and he'd orchestrate the war with the siege solely in mind, knowing that to take a castle you need at least 3 times as many troops, I doubt he would have ordered the culling at Istavaan 3, he'd probably have found another way.

 

For Istvaan III, let's just remember that Perty is the guy who ordered a Decimation in his legio for his welcome Party. I'm quite sure He'd have blown up Angron and his gang with the rest of the planet if he was deciding in the place of Horus.

 

Also trust from your warriors and allies is a must have.

So Perty is out, as Angron ( when your own sons ask themselves if they should make you "fall of the stairs" you're not trusted), Kurze and Fulgrim ( beheading your BFF isn't helping).

 

Stay Magnus, Lorgar, Mortarion and Horus and Alpharius.

Mortarion is too spooky for the job, got number issues and let be honest, the plan is to get a chaos empire, not a Petri box.

Lorgar as a leader ? Don't know, Are Erebus and Kor Phaeron qualified for the job ?

Magnus is an option, but there is a space wolf problem and before that he was not really keen to go on Horus side.

Alpharius ... Yeah, no. It's difficult to run an empire based on the cult of the personality when your special skill is to be mister everybody. And annihilate all lifeform is quite an awful politic program.

 

Horus is the way to go, he's charismatic, known by every one without the latest news as a hero, former general in chief of the crusade armies, a Warmaster and a brilliant politician. Like a Dark Augustus/Caesar. With this you have good Material to make a coup d'état and more importantly to have something who won't fall apart after 10 years.

[Elzender]

Another factor that we might have to take into account is the will of the Chaos Gods: the fates of the four "God-aligned" primarchs was probably set the moment they were spread throughout the galaxy, or at the very least each god already had their eyes on them. Moreover, the Chaos gods, in their typical fashion, were playing two games at the same time during the Heresy: on one hand, they gave power to Horus to dethrone the Emperor, but on the other, each one was pushing their own agenda, thus making the rebel force less cohesive and focused. It might even be that the Chaos Gods never intended for Horus to actually win, just to leave the nascent Imperium in a chaotic (heh) state so they could thrive in it. This would also give credit to the Cabal theory with Horus final victory leading to Humanity's demise and with it the Chaos Gods (or at least three of them, Slaanesh might have required the Eldar's sacrifice as well).

 

At any rate, I do think that Horus was the "right" choice for the Chaos Warmaster spot, at least amongst the canon traitors. The Chaos Gods needed a supreme tactician, but also someone able to sway other primarchs to their side, including their four selected pawns. I don't think any other primarch, loyal or traitor, would have been able to pull it off due to their preexisting relationships: Horus was probably one of the few primarchs that Angron and Mortarion respected, mostly due to martial prowess, while Fulgrim was in good terms with him probably due to Horus diplomacy, being able to play to Fulgrim's ego.

Actually, the only one that might have been in a similar position would have been Ferrus Manus (based on what little unfo I have, not having read his Primarch novel): he was on actual good terms with Fulgrim despite being pretty much opposite; he was one of the "senior" primarchs and had experience commanding his brothers (so Angron might have respected him); and his approach to warfare would probably sit well with Mortarion. Magnus fall, as it happened in canon, would probably be a semi-independent event, triggered by the Webway incident and the subsequent razing of Prospero. True that Horus had a hand on it, but maybe the orders could have been changed through other means.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Another factor that we might have to take into account is the will of the Chaos Gods: the fates of the four "God-aligned" primarchs was probably set the moment they were spread throughout the galaxy, or at the very least each god already had their eyes on them. Moreover, the Chaos gods, in their typical fashion, were playing two games at the same time during the Heresy: on one hand, they gave power to Horus to dethrone the Emperor, but on the other, each one was pushing their own agenda, thus making the rebel force less cohesive and focused. It might even be that the Chaos Gods never intended for Horus to actually win, just to leave the nascent Imperium in a chaotic (heh) state so they could thrive in it. This would also give credit to the Cabal theory with Horus final victory leading to Humanity's demise and with it the Chaos Gods (or at least three of them, Slaanesh might have required the Eldar's sacrifice as well).

 

At any rate, I do think that Horus was the "right" choice for the Chaos Warmaster spot, at least amongst the canon traitors. The Chaos Gods needed a supreme tactician, but also someone able to sway other primarchs to their side, including their four selected pawns. I don't think any other primarch, loyal or traitor, would have been able to pull it off due to their preexisting relationships: Horus was probably one of the few primarchs that Angron and Mortarion respected, mostly due to martial prowess, while Fulgrim was in good terms with him probably due to Horus diplomacy, being able to play to Fulgrim's ego.

Actually, the only one that might have been in a similar position would have been Ferrus Manus (based on what little unfo I have, not having read his Primarch novel): he was on actual good terms with Fulgrim despite being pretty much opposite; he was one of the "senior" primarchs and had experience commanding his brothers (so Angron might have respected him); and his approach to warfare would probably sit well with Mortarion. Magnus fall, as it happened in canon, would probably be a semi-independent event, triggered by the Webway incident and the subsequent razing of Prospero. True that Horus had a hand on it, but maybe the orders could have been changed through other means.

We haven't forgot to take that into account, which is why I took Fulgrim out of the possible choices.  Well not everyone liked Magnus but Magnus was the gods first choice, so Horus' swaying the other Primarchs and his charisma etc.   Magnus was very polarising, he was either liked or hated.  

Edited September 9, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Jackalwolf]

Where do you figure Magnus was the first choice? Genuinely curious as all I've ever seen hinted as choices really were Horus and Sanguinius.

 

Magnus was loyal to the bone until he was broken, and that's coming from a son of Russ.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Where do you figure Magnus was the first choice? Genuinely curious as all I've ever seen hinted as choices really were Horus and Sanguinius.

 

Magnus was loyal to the bone until he was broken, and that's coming from a son of Russ.

I'll have to look for the source but It was said that he was going to be chosen when he made the deal with Chaos to stop the flesh change but he was able to resist the Gods and not 'properly' turn until Russ broke his back.  Give me a bit of time and I'll find it for you.

 

Found it quicker than I expected, its in Thousand sons:

 

"Or at least a version of him had. The mirror hanging beside the doorway was broken, yet dozens of splinters still clung to the copper frame. In each of them, Magnus saw a shimmering reflection of his eye, one mocking, one angry, one capricious, another aloof. The eyes stared with sly amusement, each a different colour and each now regarding him with the same quizzical look. “A mirror? Even now you appeal to my vanity,” said Magnus, dreading what this signified. “I told you it was the easiest trap to set,” said the reflections, their voices slippery and entwined. “Now you know the truth of it.” “Was this always what you wanted?” asked Magnus. “To see me destroyed?” “Destroyed? Never!” cried the reflections, as though outraged by the suggestion. “You were always to be our first choice, Magnus. Did you know that?” “First choice for what?” “To bring about the eternal chaos of destruction and rebirth, the endless succession of making and unmaking that has cycled throughout time and will continue for all eternity. Yes, you were always first, and Horus is a poor second. The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere.” The reflections smiled with paternal affection, “But I always knew you would be ours one day. While suspicious eyes were turned upon you and your Legion, we wove our corruptions elsewhere. For that you have my thanks, as the Blinded One has lit the first fire of the conflagration, though none yet see it for what it is.”

Edited September 9, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[bluntblade]

Then again, that's either Tzeentch or one of its daemons telling him.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Then again, that's either Tzeentch or one of its daemons telling him.

Its a daemon but, what would lying achieve, they would have known Magnus would still resist them and they already had his soul so they didn't need to sugar him up, also Magnus was tempted by Chaos before anyone, even Lorgar, why... because its probably true.  

[bluntblade]

Magnus has a big old ego, and it's probably quite a clever ploy when you consider that his powers and knowledge have generally earned him derision or hatred from his brothers. In the back of his mind, there'll be a suggestion that finally, someone appreciates him.

 

Just looking at the roll call of Primarch positions on Nikaea, he would never have had support for a rebellion of his own.

Edited September 10, 2019 by bluntblade

[TorvaldTheMild]

Magnus has a big old ego, and it's probably quite a clever ploy when you consider that his powers and knowledge have generally earned him derision or hatred from his brothers. In the back of his mind, there'll be a suggestion that finally, someone appreciates him.

 

Just looking at the roll call of Primarch positions on Nikaea, he would never have had support for a rebellion of his own.

Well its either true or false, we'll just have to take it the way we see it.

[bluntblade]

Yes, but there's context beyond that which either supports or contradicts the claim made in that scene. Magnus worries and exasperates the two brothers who explicitly share his goal and regularly had three more calling for him to be censured.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Yes, but there's context beyond that which either supports or contradicts the claim made in that scene. Magnus worries and exasperates the two brothers who explicitly share his goal and regularly had three more calling for him to be censured.

What I mean is I don't want to get into a circular argument that goes nowhere, so I'll just agree to disagree.

[bluntblade]

I just honestly don't see what could get Magnus over that roadblock.

 

And this isn't knocking Magnus, he was obviously hyperpowerful and a great strategist and tactician. Nonetheless, he only ever succeeded in uniting people against him.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I just honestly don't see what could get Magnus over that roadblock.

 

And this isn't knocking Magnus, he was obviously hyperpowerful and a great strategist and tactician. Nonetheless, he only ever succeeded in uniting people against him.

Well he was the most powerful Primarch, he could also do a lot of what the emperor could, he had his own glamour etc. so I would assume that he could probably have been able to be charismatic and act in ways to manipulate peoples opinion of them or emotions and behaviours etc.  I think Magnus just never cared about doing that.  If Magnus wasn't being stubborn against the Gods he could have easily lead the heresy, some people were against him but when he turned the ones that didn't have a problem with him the rest would just gone along with it for their own vested interest, Angron for instance would have changed for any chance at freedom from censure and a chance to go up against the Emperor same with Mortarion who's hate for the Emperor ran deeper than anyone else.  Cruze couldn't change his nature and would have joined.  Lorgar was friends and respected Magnus' power so he wouldn't have a problem.  I don't see Perty having more of a problem turning than with Horus.  Horus wouldn't have turned if he wasn't leading though.

[bluntblade]

It took a lot for Mortarion to countenance psykers, and he despised Magnus. Ferrus refused his best friend, so I find it a stretch that Primarchs who held deeper grudges would fight to put Magnus on the Throne.

[Brother Tyler]

 

Then again, that's either Tzeentch or one of its daemons telling him.

Its a daemon but, what would lying achieve, they would have known Magnus would still resist them and they already had his soul so they didn't need to sugar him up, also Magnus was tempted by Chaos before anyone, even Lorgar, why... because its probably true.

 

Indeed, what would lying achieve for the god of magic, manipulation, change, and scheming?

 

If we accept that the truth was spoken, though, just because Magnus was identified as the first choice*, doesn't necessarily mean that a rebellion led by him would have been any more successful than Horus's.

 

 

 

 

* Very important: we don't know if that means Magnus was the first choice of Tzeentch or if he was the first choice of all four powers

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

Then again, that's either Tzeentch or one of its daemons telling him.

Its a daemon but, what would lying achieve, they would have known Magnus would still resist them and they already had his soul so they didn't need to sugar him up, also Magnus was tempted by Chaos before anyone, even Lorgar, why... because its probably true.

 

Indeed, what would lying achieve for the god of magic, manipulation, change, and scheming?

 

If we accept that the truth was spoken, though, just because Magnus was identified as the first choice*, doesn't necessarily mean that a rebellion led by him would have been any more successful than Horus's.

 

 

 

 

* Very important: we don't know if that means Magnus was the first choice of Tzeentch or if he was the first choice of all four powers

 

I didn't say they wouldn't lie, I said they probably didn't because what would it achieve, yes Daemons lie but they don't always lie.  You can't just dismiss evewrything and anything that Daemons say throughout the HH novels just because they are daemons and are known to lie.  I mean this is a logical fallacy, if you read that you would come to the same conclusion as there is no obvious reason why they'd lie but because we are having an argument, instead of taking it at face value, you look for something that will dispute the evidence.  Because Its surprising you's didn't know that, its widely known and everyone else takes it as being true.

 

We do know Magnus was the first choose of all four powers, otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned Horus.  If it was Tzeentch then to compare Magnus to Horus, Horus would have to have only been chosen by Tzeentch.

Edited September 10, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Sometimes the truth genuinely is more useful. Specially with a bunch of closet sociopaths.

 

Horus was deemed the linch pin as he embodied something more than charisma or leadership, brotherhood mainly. When Horus turned they genuinely felt they could trust him, warp trickery aside.

 

The only other primarchs i could see doing that are mortarion or lorgar. They genuinely had an interest in their brothers wellbeing.