What Traitor Primarch could have won the HH?

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I didn't say they wouldn't lie, I said they probably didn't because what would it achieve, yes Daemons lie but they don't always lie.  You can't just dismiss evewrything and anything that Daemons say throughout the HH novels just because they are daemons and are known to lie.  I mean this is a logical fallacy, if you read that you would come to the same conclusion as there is no obvious reason why they'd lie but because we are having an argument, instead of taking it at face value, you look for something that will dispute the evidence.  Because Its surprising you's didn't know that, its widely known and everyone else takes it as being true.

 

We do know Magnus was the first choose of all four powers, otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned Horus.  If it was Tzeentch then to compare Magnus to Horus, Horus would have to have only been chosen by Tzeentch.

 

 

 

What would it achieve? It's a Daemon of Tzeentch, lying is like breathing to them. After all, this is a God who's right hand and future seer (Kairos) gives contradictory, deliberately false yet plausible information in addition to his prophecy. And these prophecies are only granted to the greatest Champions who have served Tzeentch well. Yet he s with them. Alternatively? The lie helps screw with Magnus's head, as iirc he's going through some pretty 'mind y' stuff by that point of ATS.

 

When a Daemon makes a weird claim like 'The Gods chose Magnus first, but he was too powerful, so they settled for Horus, yet Magnus ultimately falls to Tzeentch alone', a claim which appears nowhere else in the fluff that I'm aware of, it's not unreasonable to doubt it. Especially because it seems pretty outlandish. If Magnus was 'too strong' to be the arch traitor, why did the other 3 let Tzeencth claim him? After all, isn't one of Abby's 'special things' that he's such a big deal the Gods trip over each other to try to get him to swear for 1 of them, because that'd give them a major leg up vs the other 3? If Magnus was all that, it seems plenty weird that the other 3 Gods, having dismissed him from consideration for 'Big Bad' because he was so powerful, to then sod off and let Tzeentch have Magnus all to himself. So, overall 'the Daemon was lying' seems a more plausible explanation for the events presented.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

I didn't say they wouldn't lie, I said they probably didn't because what would it achieve, yes Daemons lie but they don't always lie.  You can't just dismiss evewrything and anything that Daemons say throughout the HH novels just because they are daemons and are known to lie.  I mean this is a logical fallacy, if you read that you would come to the same conclusion as there is no obvious reason why they'd lie but because we are having an argument, instead of taking it at face value, you look for something that will dispute the evidence.  Because Its surprising you's didn't know that, its widely known and everyone else takes it as being true.

 

We do know Magnus was the first choose of all four powers, otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned Horus.  If it was Tzeentch then to compare Magnus to Horus, Horus would have to have only been chosen by Tzeentch.

 

 

 

What would it achieve? It's a Daemon of Tzeentch, lying is like breathing to them. After all, this is a God who's right hand and future seer (Kairos) gives contradictory, deliberately false yet plausible information in addition to his prophecy. And these prophecies are only granted to the greatest Champions who have served Tzeentch well. Yet he s with them. Alternatively? The lie helps screw with Magnus's head, as iirc he's going through some pretty 'mind y' stuff by that point of ATS.

 

When a Daemon makes a weird claim like 'The Gods chose Magnus first, but he was too powerful, so they settled for Horus, yet Magnus ultimately falls to Tzeentch alone', a claim which appears nowhere else in the fluff that I'm aware of, it's not unreasonable to doubt it. Especially because it seems pretty outlandish. If Magnus was 'too strong' to be the arch traitor, why did the other 3 let Tzeencth claim him? After all, isn't one of Abby's 'special things' that he's such a big deal the Gods trip over each other to try to get him to swear for 1 of them, because that'd give them a major leg up vs the other 3? If Magnus was all that, it seems plenty weird that the other 3 Gods, having dismissed him from consideration for 'Big Bad' because he was so powerful, to then sod off and let Tzeentch have Magnus all to himself. So, overall 'the Daemon was lying' seems a more plausible explanation for the events presented.

 

How on earth is 'the gods chose Magnus first' a weird claim?  Also Magnus was the first to have bargained with the Gods. 

Edited September 10, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[bluntblade]

Magnus' bargain (and he appeared to think he'd retrieved some power from the Great Ocean, seeing Tzeentch as the equivalent of a continent if I remember McNeill's wording) always seemed to be with Tzeentch, not any of the other three.

 

I feel like you're taking a single line as gospel here, whilst shutting out the surrounding context.

Edited September 11, 2019 by bluntblade

[Jackalwolf]

Yes in that passage I assumed it was a complete lie to stroke his ego. Magnus always thought himself better and to know more than everyone which causes his downfall.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

 

I didn't say they wouldn't lie, I said they probably didn't because what would it achieve, yes Daemons lie but they don't always lie.  You can't just dismiss evewrything and anything that Daemons say throughout the HH novels just because they are daemons and are known to lie.  I mean this is a logical fallacy, if you read that you would come to the same conclusion as there is no obvious reason why they'd lie but because we are having an argument, instead of taking it at face value, you look for something that will dispute the evidence.  Because Its surprising you's didn't know that, its widely known and everyone else takes it as being true.

 

We do know Magnus was the first choose of all four powers, otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned Horus.  If it was Tzeentch then to compare Magnus to Horus, Horus would have to have only been chosen by Tzeentch.

 

 

 

What would it achieve? It's a Daemon of Tzeentch, lying is like breathing to them. After all, this is a God who's right hand and future seer (Kairos) gives contradictory, deliberately false yet plausible information in addition to his prophecy. And these prophecies are only granted to the greatest Champions who have served Tzeentch well. Yet he s with them. Alternatively? The lie helps screw with Magnus's head, as iirc he's going through some pretty 'mind y' stuff by that point of ATS.

 

When a Daemon makes a weird claim like 'The Gods chose Magnus first, but he was too powerful, so they settled for Horus, yet Magnus ultimately falls to Tzeentch alone', a claim which appears nowhere else in the fluff that I'm aware of, it's not unreasonable to doubt it. Especially because it seems pretty outlandish. If Magnus was 'too strong' to be the arch traitor, why did the other 3 let Tzeencth claim him? After all, isn't one of Abby's 'special things' that he's such a big deal the Gods trip over each other to try to get him to swear for 1 of them, because that'd give them a major leg up vs the other 3? If Magnus was all that, it seems plenty weird that the other 3 Gods, having dismissed him from consideration for 'Big Bad' because he was so powerful, to then sod off and let Tzeentch have Magnus all to himself. So, overall 'the Daemon was lying' seems a more plausible explanation for the events presented.

 

How on earth is 'the gods chose Magnus first' a weird claim?  Also Magnus was the first to have bargained with the Gods. 

 

You're cutting the weirdest part of the claim out. The claim is 'The Gods chose Magnus first, but he was too powerful, so they settled for Horus, yet Magnus ultimately falls to Tzeentch alone'.

 

But Magnus being the first choice alone is somewhat weird in and of itself. As has been said elsewhere in this thread, Magnus was no Warmaster. He didn't have the social chops (or really the cunning) to engineer a rebellion like Horus did. He's not a sensible pick. Then there's the whole 'the Gods gave up on him because he was too strong, yet Tzeentch could have him all to to himself'. That just doesn't gel at all. It presents a series of questions which don't really add up. How and why was Magnus 'too strong' to be arch traitor? Especially as he was weak enough to fall to Tzeentch alone. Why did the other three Gods just leave him to Tzeentch if he was so powerful and valuable as a servant? Whereas the alternative 'A Daemon of the God of Lies, lied either to help Shepard the damned Magnus to his final destiny as a pawn of Tzeentch, or because it couldn't help itself (see 'God of Lies')' isn't weird at all and fits with the rest of the narrative we've been presented with.

 

Magnus did indeed bargain with Tzeentch (as far as I'm aware there's no fluff suggesting it was multiple Gods, just Tzeentch). But he didn't know what he was dealing with. Lorgar and Horus did (at least, to a far greater extent). It's a different situation to that of the other Traitors. While Magnus was probably the first Primarch to be damned, he wasn't the first to fall.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Magnus' bargain (and he appeared to think he'd retrieved some power from the Great Ocean, seeing Tzeentch as the equivalent of a continent if I remember McNeill's wording) always seemed to be with Tzeentch, not any of the other three.

 

I feel like you're taking a single line as gospel here, whilst shutting out the surrounding context.

Not really as the Daemon was talking of the Gods in plural, just because he was made a deciple of Tzeentch in the future doesn't mean he'd have been when they first sank their claws into him and if Magnus couldn't resist.  They are the Gods they can do what they want, they don't have to allow Zteentch Magnus and Zteentch could have chosen another.  I'm not taking it as gospel, you are picking holes in it for no reason other than to be contrary.  I've conceded it could be a lie and stated that I don't 'think' it is, I've even tried to agree to disagree, you are hell bent on it being a lie.

Yes in that passage I assumed it was a complete lie to stroke his ego. Magnus always thought himself better and to know more than everyone which causes his downfall.

Previously in that quote Magnus already called the daemon out for trying to appeal to his ego, so I don't know about that.  If the Daemon was lying it would go for a different approach as his ruse to tempt him through his ego failed.

 

 

 

 

I didn't say they wouldn't lie, I said they probably didn't because what would it achieve, yes Daemons lie but they don't always lie.  You can't just dismiss evewrything and anything that Daemons say throughout the HH novels just because they are daemons and are known to lie.  I mean this is a logical fallacy, if you read that you would come to the same conclusion as there is no obvious reason why they'd lie but because we are having an argument, instead of taking it at face value, you look for something that will dispute the evidence.  Because Its surprising you's didn't know that, its widely known and everyone else takes it as being true.

 

We do know Magnus was the first choose of all four powers, otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned Horus.  If it was Tzeentch then to compare Magnus to Horus, Horus would have to have only been chosen by Tzeentch.

 

 

 

What would it achieve? It's a Daemon of Tzeentch, lying is like breathing to them. After all, this is a God who's right hand and future seer (Kairos) gives contradictory, deliberately false yet plausible information in addition to his prophecy. And these prophecies are only granted to the greatest Champions who have served Tzeentch well. Yet he s with them. Alternatively? The lie helps screw with Magnus's head, as iirc he's going through some pretty 'mind y' stuff by that point of ATS.

 

When a Daemon makes a weird claim like 'The Gods chose Magnus first, but he was too powerful, so they settled for Horus, yet Magnus ultimately falls to Tzeentch alone', a claim which appears nowhere else in the fluff that I'm aware of, it's not unreasonable to doubt it. Especially because it seems pretty outlandish. If Magnus was 'too strong' to be the arch traitor, why did the other 3 let Tzeencth claim him? After all, isn't one of Abby's 'special things' that he's such a big deal the Gods trip over each other to try to get him to swear for 1 of them, because that'd give them a major leg up vs the other 3? If Magnus was all that, it seems plenty weird that the other 3 Gods, having dismissed him from consideration for 'Big Bad' because he was so powerful, to then sod off and let Tzeentch have Magnus all to himself. So, overall 'the Daemon was lying' seems a more plausible explanation for the events presented.

 

How on earth is 'the gods chose Magnus first' a weird claim?  Also Magnus was the first to have bargained with the Gods. 

 

You're cutting the weirdest part of the claim out. The claim is 'The Gods chose Magnus first, but he was too powerful, so they settled for Horus, yet Magnus ultimately falls to Tzeentch alone'.

 

But Magnus being the first choice alone is somewhat weird in and of itself. As has been said elsewhere in this thread, Magnus was no Warmaster. He didn't have the social chops (or really the cunning) to engineer a rebellion like Horus did. He's not a sensible pick. Then there's the whole 'the Gods gave up on him because he was too strong, yet Tzeentch could have him all to to himself'. That just doesn't gel at all. It presents a series of questions which don't really add up. How and why was Magnus 'too strong' to be arch traitor? Especially as he was weak enough to fall to Tzeentch alone. Why did the other three Gods just leave him to Tzeentch if he was so powerful and valuable as a servant? Whereas the alternative 'A Daemon of the God of Lies, lied either to help Shepard the damned Magnus to his final destiny as a pawn of Tzeentch, or because it couldn't help itself (see 'God of Lies')' isn't weird at all and fits with the rest of the narrative we've been presented with.

 

Magnus did indeed bargain with Tzeentch (as far as I'm aware there's no fluff suggesting it was multiple Gods, just Tzeentch). But he didn't know what he was dealing with. Lorgar and Horus did (at least, to a far greater extent). It's a different situation to that of the other Traitors. While Magnus was probably the first Primarch to be damned, he wasn't the first to fall.

 

No, Magnus was too powerful in resisting the Gods, the only reason he turned in the end is because he had no other choice to, it was either be killed by Russ for nothing or except his destiny. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[The_son_of_Dorn]

"You may embrace this fate but i will take up arms against it" - ahriman

 

Thing is though, logically Magnus becoming the champion makes no sense. His legion was minimal, his champions unable to control high level warp energy. He was made a terrible terrible pawn.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

No, Magnus was too powerful in resisting the Gods, the only reason he turned in the end is because he had no other choice to, it was either be killed by Russ for nothing or except his destiny. 

 

 

Too 'powerful' in resisting the Gods, yet he jumped at the first Faustian bargain the warp offered him to 'save' his Legion from the flesh change? Firstly, extrapolating that from "The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere....But I always knew you would be ours one day" seems a mighty, mighty stretch. Secondly, it still just doesn't add up. If Magnus was so good at 'resisting' the Gods, to the point they dropped him from consideration to be the arch traitor, he shouldn't have damned himself and his Legion at the first opportunity, years before any of the other Heresy stuff went down. But we know he did. So again, 'Daemon of lies was lying' just fits the available information better.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Leif Bearclaw

[bluntblade]

On a tangential note, I do wonder if Horus would be considered to have lost his magnetism upon turning evil had he been passed straight from Abnett's hands to AD-B, Wraight and French rather than McNeill and Counter.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

 

No, Magnus was too powerful in resisting the Gods, the only reason he turned in the end is because he had no other choice to, it was either be killed by Russ for nothing or except his destiny. 

 

 

Too 'powerful' in resisting the Gods, yet he jumped at the first Faustian bargain the warp offered him to 'save' his Legion from the flesh change? Firstly, extrapolating that from "The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere....But I always knew you would be ours one day" seems a mighty, mighty stretch. Secondly, it still just doesn't add up. If Magnus was so good at 'resisting' the Gods, to the point they dropped him from consideration to be the arch traitor, he shouldn't have damned himself and his Legion at the first opportunity, years before any of the other Heresy stuff went down. But we know he did. So again, 'Daemon of lies was lying' just fits the available information better.

 

When he made the bargain he was unaware at what he was doing, he didn't know he was making a bargain.  Magnus resisted them whether you want to accept that or not.  Mortarion made a deal with the Gods but he kept resisting for ages, you can make a bargain and damn your souls but you can still resist the Gods and not follow them or do what they say. I don't see your point, you aren't making any sense.

Edited September 11, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[bluntblade]

You're missing his point. Magnus, was he truly, fundamentally more powerful than any other Primarch, would have thoroughly unbalanced the Great Game. For the other three to leave him to Tzeentch wouldn't make much sense, and this is what Leif is getting at?

 

TSoD also makes a good point in that Magnus had but a small Legion, who were themselves distrusted by many, and while he could have troops seconded to him he lacked the kind of auxiliary assets which Horus, Guilliman, Ferrus etc wielded.

 

Plus, we have nothing to back up the claim of Magnus resisting what he didn't know was a god, except that god's word.

Edited September 12, 2019 by bluntblade

[Leif Bearclaw]

Mortarion made a deal with the Gods but he kept resisting for ages, you can make a bargain and damn your souls but you can still resist the Gods and not follow them or do what they say. I don't see your point, you aren't making any sense.

 

 

Eh? What are you referring to with Mortarion? IIRC he didn't really get into the 'Chaos game' until the DG fleet gets becalmed and the Destroyer Plague hits. At which point he eventually swears himself to Nurgle and fully damns himself. I'm unaware of any previous 'deal' he made that he then 'resisted'.

 

 

When he made the bargain he was unaware at what he was doing, he didn't know he was making a bargain.  Magnus resisted them whether you want to accept that or not.

What evidence do you have of Magnus 'resisting'? If anything, his tragic tale is the exact opposite. He just accepts all the power the warp offers, convinced he's the master of it, not the other way around. He accepts the warp's help in 'saving' his legion, he takes the warp's power boost to breach the psychic walls of Terra to bring his warning tot he Emperor (great idea that, the muppet). OK, he only realises the magnitude of his mistake and what he's really been dealing with all this time when it's far too late, but he embraced the warp with both hands, not a shred of 'resistance' in sight. Plus of course, this 'he was resisting' thing seems to be entirely your invention, the text you quoted only talks about 'strength' (and of course, that interpretation isn't how 'strength' (without any further qualifiers) is usually used in language). Sorry, but the evidence still points to 'Lying Deamon'.

 

 

You're missing his point. Magnus, was he truly, fundamentally more powerful than any other Primarch, would have thoroughly unbalanced the Great Game. For the other three to leave him to Tzeentch wouldn't make much sense, and this is what Leif is getting at?

 

Partly yes. Though I'd say there's yet another wrinkle in there that doesn't add up. Forget for the moment the other three leaving Magnus to Tzeentch makes no sense. Tzeentch tries to take Magnus all by himself. Yet the claim is that Magnus was 'too strong' for the Gods combined to claim as their Champion. So, how did Tzeentch manage by himself what the combined powers thought was a waste of time? And no 'Russ broke his back' does not explain it, as ATS goes to great lengths to point out that Magnus and the XV were damned to Tzeentch by the deals already made, long before a single Wolf landed on Prospero. 

[bluntblade]

I'd originally brought up the subject of Mortarion, referring to his use of sorcery on Molech.

[Tymell]

I'd say that Horus had among the best chance for much the same reasons he was one of the best choices for Warmaster: his combination of tactical prowess, influence among his brothers and charisma (though admittedly that last one didn't seem to get used so much during the Heresy, which I think is a bit of a shame from a writing perspective. I get that his is supposed to be the more clearly evil side, but still, it might've been nice to see diplomatic Horus a bit more, at least early on).

 

Anywho, back on topic: along this same line, I think the other best chances among any of the primarchs would likely be with the same criteria as the Warmaster appointment. By that logic, Sanguinius would probably have the best shot at it, maybe Ferrus Manus or the Lion too (they don't have as much of that charisma or charm as Horus, but as above, that doesn't seem to be as much of a factor in the Heresy itself). But it's also hard to say because these are all loyalists, and we don't really know what they'd be like if they were traitors.

 

Among the actual traitors, I don't think any of them would've done better than Horus did. Angron and Curze were too much just damaged monsters, Magnus and Lorgar have certain edges (their powers and affinity with the warp) but likely lack the strategic acumen, Fulgrim became too vain and self-obsessed, Alpharius too secretive and at times arrogant. Mortarion and Perturabo certainly had resolute determination and battlefield leadership qualities, but are both perhaps too blunt and lacking in creative flair (not to mention Mortarion's aversion to the powers of the warp). And none of them have anything like the widespread respect and influence Horus did.

[TorvaldTheMild]

You're missing his point. Magnus, was he truly, fundamentally more powerful than any other Primarch, would have thoroughly unbalanced the Great Game. For the other three to leave him to Tzeentch wouldn't make much sense, and this is what Leif is getting at?

 

TSoD also makes a good point in that Magnus had but a small Legion, who were themselves distrusted by many, and while he could have troops seconded to him he lacked the kind of auxiliary assets which Horus, Guilliman, Ferrus etc wielded.

 

Plus, we have nothing to back up the claim of Magnus resisting what he didn't know was a god, except that god's word.

That wasn't his point.

 

 

Mortarion made a deal with the Gods but he kept resisting for ages, you can make a bargain and damn your souls but you can still resist the Gods and not follow them or do what they say. I don't see your point, you aren't making any sense.

Eh? What are you referring to with Mortarion? IIRC he didn't really get into the 'Chaos game' until the DG fleet gets becalmed and the Destroyer Plague hits. At which point he eventually swears himself to Nurgle and fully damns himself. I'm unaware of any previous 'deal' he made that he then 'resisted'.

 

When he made the bargain he was unaware at what he was doing, he didn't know he was making a bargain. Magnus resisted them whether you want to accept that or not.

What evidence do you have of Magnus 'resisting'? If anything, his tragic tale is the exact opposite. He just accepts all the power the warp offers, convinced he's the master of it, not the other way around. He accepts the warp's help in 'saving' his legion, he takes the warp's power boost to breach the psychic walls of Terra to bring his warning tot he Emperor (great idea that, the muppet). OK, he only realises the magnitude of his mistake and what he's really been dealing with all this time when it's far too late, but he embraced the warp with both hands, not a shred of 'resistance' in sight. Plus of course, this 'he was resisting' thing seems to be entirely your invention, the text you quoted only talks about 'strength' (and of course, that interpretation isn't how 'strength' (without any further qualifiers) is usually used in language). Sorry, but the evidence still points to 'Lying Deamon'.

 

 

You're missing his point. Magnus, was he truly, fundamentally more powerful than any other Primarch, would have thoroughly unbalanced the Great Game. For the other three to leave him to Tzeentch wouldn't make much sense, and this is what Leif is getting at?

Partly yes. Though I'd say there's yet another wrinkle in there that doesn't add up. Forget for the moment the other three leaving Magnus to Tzeentch makes no sense. Tzeentch tries to take Magnus all by himself. Yet the claim is that Magnus was 'too strong' for the Gods combined to claim as their Champion. So, how did Tzeentch manage by himself what the combined powers thought was a waste of time? And no 'Russ broke his back' does not explain it, as ATS goes to great lengths to point out that Magnus and the XV were damned to Tzeentch by the deals already made, long before a single Wolf landed on Prospero.

Mortarion imprisoned a daemon called Lermenta on Prospero, which attacked him and in order to banish the daemon he had to use sorcery and the daemon said if he were to banish her his soul would be forfeit, which was the deal he made and thereafter he constantly said to Horus that he had kept his legion 'pure', not letting them end up like the Emperors Children, even though he was a hypocrite because he used Grulgar etc.

 

The Daemon says that Magnus resisted. "The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Brother Tyler

[bluntblade]

I beg to differ. Leif has emphasised the power issue multiple times already.

 

 

No, Magnus was too powerful in resisting the Gods, the only reason he turned in the end is because he had no other choice to, it was either be killed by Russ for nothing or except his destiny.

 

Too 'powerful' in resisting the Gods, yet he jumped at the first Faustian bargain the warp offered him to 'save' his Legion from the flesh change? Firstly, extrapolating that from "The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere....But I always knew you would be ours one day" seems a mighty, mighty stretch. Secondly, it still just doesn't add up. If Magnus was so good at 'resisting' the Gods, to the point they dropped him from consideration to be the arch traitor, he shouldn't have damned himself and his Legion at the first opportunity, years before any of the other Heresy stuff went down. But we know he did. So again, 'Daemon of lies was lying' just fits the available information better.

We've also yet to see any proof that any Primarch was actually puppeted except Fulgrim. Horus is manipulated and persuaded.

 

Look, the argument's turned to whether you misinterpreted a post in the thread. This has become too meta for me and circular to boot. I'm out.

Edited September 12, 2019 by bluntblade

[TorvaldTheMild]

I beg to differ. Leif has emphasised the power issue multiple times already.

 

 

No, Magnus was too powerful in resisting the Gods, the only reason he turned in the end is because he had no other choice to, it was either be killed by Russ for nothing or except his destiny.

Too 'powerful' in resisting the Gods, yet he jumped at the first Faustian bargain the warp offered him to 'save' his Legion from the flesh change? Firstly, extrapolating that from "The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere....But I always knew you would be ours one day" seems a mighty, mighty stretch. Secondly, it still just doesn't add up. If Magnus was so good at 'resisting' the Gods, to the point they dropped him from consideration to be the arch traitor, he shouldn't have damned himself and his Legion at the first opportunity, years before any of the other Heresy stuff went down. But we know he did. So again, 'Daemon of lies was lying' just fits the available information better.

We've also yet to see any proof that any Primarch was actually puppeted except Fulgrim. Horus is manipulated and persuaded.

 

Look, the argument's turned to whether you misinterpreted a post in the thread. This has become too meta for me and circular to boot. I'm out.

 

No he was arguing something about being able to resist the gods and yet being powerful though turning at Prospero.  What does proof of being puppeted have anything to do with this?  You can't say 'he meant this' and take a different point that I was talking about, just to get one over on me because we are arguing.  You have to actually explain the comment I said didn't make sense not the one before it.

 

You are the one that has made it circular.  I tried to agree to disagree two times and you kept dragging it out.

Edited September 12, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[jaxom]

 

 

 

 

No, Magnus was too powerful in resisting the Gods, the only reason he turned in the end is because he had no other choice to, it was either be killed by Russ for nothing or except his destiny. 

 

 

Too 'powerful' in resisting the Gods, yet he jumped at the first Faustian bargain the warp offered him to 'save' his Legion from the flesh change? Firstly, extrapolating that from "The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere....But I always knew you would be ours one day" seems a mighty, mighty stretch. Secondly, it still just doesn't add up. If Magnus was so good at 'resisting' the Gods, to the point they dropped him from consideration to be the arch traitor, he shouldn't have damned himself and his Legion at the first opportunity, years before any of the other Heresy stuff went down. But we know he did. So again, 'Daemon of lies was lying' just fits the available information better.

 

When he made the bargain he was unaware at what he was doing, he didn't know he was making a bargain.  Magnus resisted them whether you want to accept that or not.  Mortarion made a deal with the Gods but he kept resisting for ages, you can make a bargain and damn your souls but you can still resist the Gods and not follow them or do what they say. I don't see your point, you aren't making any sense.

 

 

I think if the line ( "The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere.” ) is referring to raw, psychic power then a lot of it falls into place. Magnus's power was his greatest weakness as a general and figurehead because it fed his hubris and estranged him from the majority of the Imperial power structure. Imagine if he only had Kurze, Lorgar, or Sanguinius levels of power, but the same general propensity for word-smithing, knowledge seeking, and psychic mastery; no longer so alien to his brothers, perhaps more subtle with his mastery and with some more martial/strategy chops to compensate for the loss of psychic might within him and his legion. I think that would be very attractive choice to lead a rebellion against the Emperor. Instead his psychic power was too much and made him a pariah; the Chaos gods lose out on their first option, but Tzeentch picks up a very valuable and powerful pawn as the other three lose interest.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

 

 

 

No, Magnus was too powerful in resisting the Gods, the only reason he turned in the end is because he had no other choice to, it was either be killed by Russ for nothing or except his destiny. 

 

 

Too 'powerful' in resisting the Gods, yet he jumped at the first Faustian bargain the warp offered him to 'save' his Legion from the flesh change? Firstly, extrapolating that from "The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere....But I always knew you would be ours one day" seems a mighty, mighty stretch. Secondly, it still just doesn't add up. If Magnus was so good at 'resisting' the Gods, to the point they dropped him from consideration to be the arch traitor, he shouldn't have damned himself and his Legion at the first opportunity, years before any of the other Heresy stuff went down. But we know he did. So again, 'Daemon of lies was lying' just fits the available information better.

 

When he made the bargain he was unaware at what he was doing, he didn't know he was making a bargain.  Magnus resisted them whether you want to accept that or not.  Mortarion made a deal with the Gods but he kept resisting for ages, you can make a bargain and damn your souls but you can still resist the Gods and not follow them or do what they say. I don't see your point, you aren't making any sense.

 

 

I think if the line ( "The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere.” ) is referring to raw, psychic power then a lot of it falls into place. Magnus's power was his greatest weakness as a general and figurehead because it fed his hubris and estranged him from the majority of the Imperial power structure. Imagine if he only had Kurze, Lorgar, or Sanguinius levels of power, but the same general propensity for word-smithing, knowledge seeking, and psychic mastery; no longer so alien to his brothers, perhaps more subtle with his mastery and with some more martial/strategy chops to compensate for the loss of psychic might within him and his legion. I think that would be very attractive choice to lead a rebellion against the Emperor. Instead his psychic power was too much and made him a pariah; the Chaos gods lose out on their first option, but Tzeentch picks up a very valuable and powerful pawn as the other three lose interest.

 

Magnus had some of the greatest faults and weaknesses but I was using that instance to show that there is the possibility that someone other than Horus could achieve the siege at Terra, even though Horus failed (which is important to note).  But I think at least 3 of the traitor Primarch's could have definitely led.  Horus lost so much of what he was great at when he turned and even more when he went to Molech, he also made many failures in the Heresy, people give him too much credit.   I mean Horus' leadership in the HH was a bit of a shambles.  

Edited September 12, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

You're missing his point. Magnus, was he truly, fundamentally more powerful than any other Primarch, would have thoroughly unbalanced the Great Game. For the other three to leave him to Tzeentch wouldn't make much sense, and this is what Leif is getting at?

 

Partly yes. Though I'd say there's yet another wrinkle in there that doesn't add up. Forget for the moment the other three leaving Magnus to Tzeentch makes no sense. Tzeentch tries to take Magnus all by himself. Yet the claim is that Magnus was 'too strong' for the Gods combined to claim as their Champion. So, how did Tzeentch manage by himself what the combined powers thought was a waste of time? And no 'Russ broke his back' does not explain it, as ATS goes to great lengths to point out that Magnus and the XV were damned to Tzeentch by the deals already made, long before a single Wolf landed on Prospero. 

 

I always interpreted the timing of this as they were deciding an overall champion as they were turning Lorgar as their instigator. Magnus being so powerful like the Emperor psychically they decided if the Emperor could defy them with that power, so could Magnus, so was pointless attempting it at all.Then Tzeentch decided to break him down and make him vulnerable, by hitting his legion with the flesh change. If by some chance Magnus stayed loyal, his legion would be destroyed by the flesh change or pledge to Tzeentch for help. Either way its a win as either he joins or becomes much less of a threat without his legion behind him. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

You're missing his point. Magnus, was he truly, fundamentally more powerful than any other Primarch, would have thoroughly unbalanced the Great Game. For the other three to leave him to Tzeentch wouldn't make much sense, and this is what Leif is getting at?

 

TSoD also makes a good point in that Magnus had but a small Legion, who were themselves distrusted by many, and while he could have troops seconded to him he lacked the kind of auxiliary assets which Horus, Guilliman, Ferrus etc wielded.

 

Plus, we have nothing to back up the claim of Magnus resisting what he didn't know was a god, except that god's word.

That wasn't his point.  

 

Actually, it was. Or at least one of them, as part of the greater 'nothing about this claim adds up'. If you take Magnus being 'too strong' to mean actual strength/power (as pretty much everyone else seems to), then indeed it doesn't make sense that the other 3 powers would give up and leave Magnus to Tzeencth.

 

 

I beg to differ. Leif has emphasised the power issue multiple times already.

 

 

No, Magnus was too powerful in resisting the Gods, the only reason he turned in the end is because he had no other choice to, it was either be killed by Russ for nothing or except his destiny.

Too 'powerful' in resisting the Gods, yet he jumped at the first Faustian bargain the warp offered him to 'save' his Legion from the flesh change? Firstly, extrapolating that from "The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere....But I always knew you would be ours one day" seems a mighty, mighty stretch. Secondly, it still just doesn't add up. If Magnus was so good at 'resisting' the Gods, to the point they dropped him from consideration to be the arch traitor, he shouldn't have damned himself and his Legion at the first opportunity, years before any of the other Heresy stuff went down. But we know he did. So again, 'Daemon of lies was lying' just fits the available information better.

We've also yet to see any proof that any Primarch was actually puppeted except Fulgrim. Horus is manipulated and persuaded.

 

Look, the argument's turned to whether you misinterpreted a post in the thread. This has become too meta for me and circular to boot. I'm out.

 

No he was arguing something about being able to resist the gods and yet being powerful though turning at Prospero.  What does proof of being puppeted have anything to do with this?  You can't say 'he meant this' and take a different point that I was talking about, just to get one over on me because we are arguing.  You have to actually explain the comment I said didn't make sense not the one before it.

 

You are the one that has made it circular.  I tried to agree to disagree two times and you kept dragging it out.

 

No, I was arguing that your reinterpretation of 'too strong' to mean 'too good at resisting' rather than 'too powerful' didn't add up. My position is that we never see any evidence of Magnus resisting the power offered by the warp, so the claim is without substantiation and falls flat. Secondly, that interpretation of events (ie. Magnus was good at resisting) is also an incredibly poor explanation for the events we observe, because if Magnus was so good at resisting the lure of all powers combined (to the point he's not worth considering for 'arch traitor') then his fall to Tzeencth alone doesn't make sense (especially as we know he damned himself long before Prospero). It would be like a boxer being able to outlast Muhammed Ali, Joe Lewis, Jack Johnson and George Foreman in a 4 v 1, but then is knocked out in the first round in a rematch against Foreman alone. Something fishy would be afoot.

[Charlo]

Alpharius.

 

Because he did win ;)

 

========

 

Nah it's Horus. It's made abundantly clear no other traitor could orchestrate and lead the invasion. The rest either lacked the ambition, power to do so or the influence over the others.

 

[Potential spoilers for later heresy books below]

 

Hell, for a long point prior to the traitor muster at ullanor before Terra, Horus was hardly leading and was sorting himself out after his little tussle with Russ and the magic doubt spear.

[Trevak Dal]

The one thing that's always going to hold any back, is that Horus was really able to bring out the best in all of his brothers and make use of their individual strengths and help shore up their weaknesses, but as they fell more and more into chaos foolery they became more and more disjointed and segregated.

 

That disunity is what ultimately will break any Rebel force against the Imperium, because the Imperium has impossible assets to bring to bear against the traitors.

 

Seriously, the only reason they exist to be a threat in 40k is because of plot armor and daemon magic somehow Orkifies your tech falling apart around you as you fight eachother for potable water and the ability to keep manufacturing ammunition.

[MegaVolt87]

Seriously, the only reason they exist to be a threat in 40k is because of plot armor and daemon magic somehow Orkifies your tech falling apart around you as you fight eachother for potable water and the ability to keep manufacturing ammunition.

No way, CSM have always had a significant presance in real space, overt and covert. Sure they get kicked back to the warp at times, but still are a threat. Majority of CSM being stuck in warp space is a pleasant fiction Imperials make for themselves. Even more so now post rift. There haven't been this many traitor legionaris in real space since HH-scouring days.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Perturabo could and here's why. It's revealed in The Lost and the Damned that Perturabo wanted to blow up Terra but Horus would not let him due to the symbolic significance of Terra and wanting the throne. If Horus had just let Perturabo's legion destroy the planet the war could have been won as there would be no more Emperor, Custodians, Sanguinius, Khan, Dorn, Vulkan, and their respective legions. Also, it would force the Dark Angels and Ultramarines in pursuit to retreat back to Imperium Secundus as their planned counteroffensive is literally pointless with Terra gone.