What Traitor Primarch could have won the HH?

[Bung]

Could Perturabo do this without the logistical preperations that Horus did before?

I think most time is underestimated how much subtle preperations Horus did as the Warmaster before he even started on Istvaan. Like getting the legions that sided with him most of the new gear or getting the Ultramarines out of his way.

All that stuff wouldnt have happened with any other primarch as they are written in the background as it is.

If you want someone else to replace Horus you would have to rewrite alot of the personality of that primarch as noone had the same level of respect or personality.

[bluntblade]

This. Perturabo could never inspire loyalty like Horus.

[jaxom]

Perturabo could and here's why. It's revealed in The Lost and the Damned that Perturabo wanted to blow up Terra but Horus would not let him due to the symbolic significance of Terra and wanting the throne. If Horus had just let Perturabo's legion destroy the planet the war could have been won as there would be no more Emperor, Custodians, Sanguinius, Khan, Dorn, Vulkan, and their respective legions. Also, it would force the Dark Angels and Ultramarines in pursuit to retreat back to Imperium Secundus as their planned counteroffensive is literally pointless with Terra gone.

 

Yes and no. Destroying Terra would have dramatically altered the war, but it wouldn't be a victory in the way the Chaos forces needed. The Emperor had a plan to psychically nuke the warp rift (courtesy of Vulkan) if it looked like the planet was going to fall. Terra would be gone and so would everyone else involved in the siege. The Space Wolves, the Dark Angels, and the Ultramarines would be in a perfect position to mop up whoever was in the outer solar system and avoided the destruction of Terra. The Chaos gods don't get the direct interaction they need through their conduit (Horus) to definitively kill the Emperor so he'd eventually come back (detail are fuzzy on whether that would be via warp shenanigans or via Perpetual resurrection). Eventually a new Chaos champion would arise and it'd happen all over again unless the loyalists/Emperor had outpaced Chaos by that point.

[Fajita Fan]

I feel Russ, if he hadn't disappeared, would've loved the last 10k years of eternal war. 

 

And I kinda agree that Perturabo would've fared well because his brothers always underestimated him and he could sieged his way through anything.

[MegaVolt87]

I feel Russ, if he hadn't disappeared, would've loved the last 10k years of eternal war. 

 

And I kinda agree that Perturabo would've fared well because his brothers always underestimated him and he could sieged his way through anything.

 

There is no garuentee Russ could have survived if he stuck around. He was a broken man like Corax post HH. Both of them leaving was probably for the best for the new chapters and the primarchs themselves. On the traitor side, there were no better tactician's than Horus or Perty.

 

Horus could and did kick the   out of his more truant traitor brothers to make them tow the line, Perty couldn't and is more of behind the scenes technocrat who does the work with/which the manager endorses + does all the managers work, then tells everyone to do it without the manager actually doing much of anything. Perty had a thankless, but important role to play in the HH. Happy to see the siege books acknowledge this more. Also reminder EC still useless on Terra along with a lot of NL just going after civilians probablty/ still. 

[Fajita Fan]

Well Horus was blessed by the four gods and probably more than a match for any of his brothers. Followers of Chaos follow strength and Perturabo had the charisma and charm of tuberculosis.

[Indefragable]

On the point about just blowing Terra to smithereens, what I took away from Titandesth, The Solar War, and The Lost and the Damned is that

The Emperor could have left Terra on the Phalanx and dug in somewhere else. Primarchs other than Dorn make this point and are in fact somewhat disappointed that Dorn decides to send the Phalanx and the remaining solar fleets away as it removes this option.

Beta Garmon was designed to be a nuke and Titan fight explicitly for the purpose of creating a set piece conventional* battle in the Sol system, both forcing the traitors to expend their Titan legions and also to goad them just enough into committing of a siege and not just blowing Terra out of the water. If Terra was truly impregnable then the Traitors would have had no option but to nuke things. By creating the possibility of facing the Emperor in person through a defense-in-depth strategy, the Traitors couldn’t help but go for it since the benefit of defeating the Emperor in person outweighed then risks of losing the siege, as compared to nuking the planet and being down with it.

Kinda like all those 80’s action movies where the hero and villain could shoot each other, but decide that a fist fight is far more satisfying win or lose.

“Come on, Horus! Let’s party!”

...of course it’s not that neat and dry and I don’t think that was entirely the Loyalist plan, but there’s that aspect to it.

TL;DR: I think the Loyalist strategy depended on the Traitor command. Since it was Horus, they knew from the opening shot that he would take the fight to the throne room itself. If Perturabo had been the rebel leader, they would have guessed that he would hand just blown everything up and it probably would have been a far more mobile defense so they couldn’t stay in one spot for Pert to tie them down.

...not trying to give the Loyalists too much credit, but I think all the Primarchs knew their brothers well enough to know how things would most likely shake out.

 

Edit: typos

Edited December 7, 2019 by Indefragable

[MegaVolt87]

Yeah primarchs are foes, but still bro's. Makes sense for the loyalists to make assumptions.

[Scammel]

TL;DR: I think the Loyalist strategy depended on the Traitor command. Since it was Horus, they knew from the opening shot that he would take the fight to the throne room itself. If Perturabo had been the rebel leader, they would have guessed that he would hand just blown everything up and it probably would have been a far more mobile defense so they couldn’t stay in one spot for Pert to tie them down.

 

...not trying to give the Loyalists too much credit, but I think all the Primarchs knew their brothers well enough to know how things would most likely shake out.

LAtD does potentially simplify this otherwise excellent theory - it's made more explicit that the Emperor has to be defeated in single combat (or at the very least at close range, presumably through the Anathame that Oll might unwittingly be delivering to Horus). There's a still a tantalising number of mysteries about the Emperor's tactical and strategic intents that will presumably have more light shed upon them in the remaining four books. 

 

As for the original premise of the thread, I'll stick with the consensus - the factors that initially made it easy for Horus to manipulate many of his brothers is also what disqualifies them in many instances. Magnus gets a nod for being one of the poorer contenders for leading a galaxy-wide rebellion, but with huge personal destructive potential; I imagine he and the Sons could make the Ruinstorm seem like a light cosmic drizzle.

 

As for the loyalists, Guilliman could perhaps muster the greatest and most resilient military threat to the Imperium of any Primarch, but he probably lacks the spiritual X-factor to do... whatever it is that needs to happen to actually defeat the Emperor. He's displayed some shortcomings in how he interacts with his siblings, too.

 

Sanguinius would obviously be a holy terror; the symbolic importance of a fallen angel would hardly be lost on anyone, I think. Mortals would presumably weep blood at the sight of him.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Scammel

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

On the point about just blowing Terra to smithereens, what I took away from Titandesth, The Solar War, and The Lost and the Damned is that

 

The Emperor could have left Terra on the Phalanx and dug in somewhere else. Primarchs other than Dorn make this point and are in fact somewhat disappointed that Dorn decides to send the Phalanx and the remaining solar fleets away as it removes this option.

 

Beta Garmon was designed to be a nuke and Titan fight explicitly for the purpose of creating a set piece conventional* battle in the Sol system, both forcing the traitors to expend their Titan legions and also to goad them just enough into committing of a siege and not just blowing Terra out of the water. If Terra was truly impregnable then the Traitors would have had no option but to nuke things. By creating the possibility of facing the Emperor in person through a defense-in-depth strategy, the Traitors couldn’t help but go for it since the benefit of defeating the Emperor in person outweighed then risks of losing the siege, as compared to nuking the planet and being down with it.

 

Kinda like all those 80’s action movies where the hero and villain could shoot each other, but decide that a fist fight is far more satisfying win or lose.

 

“Come on, Horus! Let’s party!”

 

 

...of course it’s not that neat and dry and I don’t think that was entirely the Loyalist plan, but there’s that aspect to it.

 

 

TL;DR: I think the Loyalist strategy depended on the Traitor command. Since it was Horus, they knew from the opening shot that he would take the fight to the throne room itself. If Perturabo had been the rebel leader, they would have guessed that he would hand just blown everything up and it probably would have been a far more mobile defense so they couldn’t stay in one spot for Pert to tie them down.

 

...not trying to give the Loyalists too much credit, but I think all the Primarchs knew their brothers well enough to know how things would most likely shake out.

 

Edit: typos

 

I find myself agreeing the most with this viewpoint as well. The way things shook out the way they did was because it was Horus leading the Heresy and for him the endpoint was a new government where he was the new acting head. This endgame leads to several implications both regarding what he has to do to and what his enemies know what he must do:

 

Implication 1: Horus must be able to be seen as a legitimate ruler by whatever remains of the Imperium after the revolution ends

• This means that Horus must seek for the support of as many of his brother primarchs as possible, either directly by getting their support or indirectly by getting them to be neutral in the conflict
• This means that Horus must arrange for and seek for support from the main political factions inside the Imperium, such as the Mechanicum, the Navigators and the planetary governors
• This means that the Emperor must be dead and preferably in a way where Horus personally kills him to cement that he has a better claim on the throne

Implication 2: When Horus is done, there must still be an Imperium for him to lead

• This means that Horus can't simply go scorched earth on everything, he can burn Istvaan to the ground and unleash the Titan legions on the Beta Garmon systems to annihilate them and pave the way to Terra, but not everything in his wake can just be rubble
• Much of the Imperial governmental structure was based on Terra, from planetary records to all sorts of other essential components of a galaxy-spanning empire (we must also not forget the question of the Astronomican, for which I personally am not aware if Horus had any special plans for how to replace it)

Implication 3: All of the people fighting with and against Horus knew what the endgame for him was

• The traitor primarchs all had to accept that they were fighting for an Imperium where they would be lead by Horus instead of the Emperor, the government would probably be very different (I mean several of them had grievances with the increased influence that the Council of Terra had), but it would still be an empire and empires are lead by a singular head of state in their respective emperor
• The loyalist primarchs knew that whatever else Horus and the traitors were up to, they had to deal with the Emperor and the throneworld eventually, this was not a war of secession, it was a war of replacement

 

When discussing anyone else leading the rebellion, many of these implications end up being completely different and thus the whole situation shifts immensely. Let me illustrate this by an example:

 

If Angron would have been the one in charge of the Heresy, he would not have been one to seek replacing the Emperor, he would be after killing the Emperor and preferably being alive long enough to spit on His corpse. Questions of legitimacy of his rule or questions regarding what would be left afterwards would not have troubled Angron in the slightest: he would have set sail with the Conqueror and all of his legions assets to where he expected the Emperor to be and just unleashed the full force of his legion in a genocidal wave of bloodthirsty maniacs. This could have ended up being a very dramatic and surprisingly effective strike depending on how well he could surprise the rest of the Imperium, but the aftermath would have either been the Emperor still ruling on a horrifically devastated Terra or some loyalist primarch or Malcador taking the Emperor's place if He had been killed by Angron. I can't see any way this would have ended up with Angron ruling in the Emperor's place, because that is not what he would be after and thus he would spend no effort on legitimizing his revolution either.

 

If we try to push Angron into the same mold as Horus, envisioning him to lead a similar rebellion to the Horus Heresy then we immediately end up seeing where he falls flat as he has basically no argument for a legitimate claim on the throne of the Emperor and many of his brother primarchs were cool towards him even from the start. Horus on the other hand had been functioning as the Warmaster for some time and had the respect of many of his brothers from the get go. Even two loyalist primarchs (Leman Russ and Lion'El Jonson) both agree that he was the sensible choice for that role, even with Leman being a boisterous and prideful individual and Lion'El Jonson being a supremely skilled tactician with an impressive tally of victories as well as being the First and thus having a claim via seniority. Moving on to the political side of things we again find Angron lacking, as he had no real inclination to seek political alliances  and no real political allies to speak of with the potential exception of the Legio Audax of the Titan Legions who seemed to have really liked him and his legion in general (whether that would have been enough to commit to a revolution is hard to determine). Horus on the other hand succeeded in his political machinations to the extent that the Fabricator-General of Mars seceded from the Imperium and joined him alongside a multitude of planetary governors and other Imperial officials.

 

I am going to skip the scorched earth implication as it is rather self-evident that Angron would have had to rein in his bloodthirsty tendencies, but in fairness to him, Angron would have left behind habitable planets compared to someone like Perturabo who would have been completely fine annihilating all planets that he would have seen as having little strategic import. Moving on to the third implication I can never see a situation where multiple primarchs (loyal or traitor) would have been comfortable bending the knee to Angron. I can see an argument being made for Lorgar, as they were somewhat close and Lorgar would have been fine with bending a knee and then focusing on what he saw as the really important work in the spiritual realm. I guess you could also make an argument for Curze because for all of his faults I don't see him being prideful and I would imagine that he would be left alone with his legion to do what he wants in an Imperium led by Angron. That is pretty much it though in my opinion, although I would love to hear your thoughts.

 

Best regards,

G

[TheCelticRaven]

"Which Traitor Primarch could have won the Horus Heresy?"
Evidently none of them, we have a whole book series about all of them failing in their own way to win. 

[Lucerne]

"Which Traitor Primarch could have won the Horus Heresy?"

Evidently none of them, we have a whole book series about all of them failing in their own way to win. 

We have word of BL that Alpharius would have simply subverted the lot of them and had a group shanking of the Emperor by corrupted Primarchs.

 

Alpha Legion bull:cuss meets Chaos "rings of power" style corruption is a hell of a drug.

[TheCelticRaven]

 

"Which Traitor Primarch could have won the Horus Heresy?"

Evidently none of them, we have a whole book series about all of them failing in their own way to win. 

We have word of BL that Alpharius would have simply subverted the lot of them and had a group shanking of the Emperor by corrupted Primarchs.

 

Alpha Legion bull:cuss meets Chaos "rings of power" style corruption is a hell of a drug.

 

Black Libraries "word" means about as much as a fart in a storm. Reminder that this is fiction and any character can succeed or fail based on the whim of the writer. 

[Scammel]

Praetorian of Dorn highlights Alpharius' disqualifying flaws very well, namely fatal arrogance, a Napoleon complex and an addiction to subterfuge that renders him unable to see the woods for the trees. He ranks highly for capacity to inflict raw hurt upon the Imperium, but this cocktail of traits leads him to underestimate and devalue his brothers, while Horus excels at Primarch politics right up to the Siege itself.